Our interaction with AI seems to debunk Biblical ideas

[Messy]

God is not in the business of bargaining with his own creatures, seeking their approval only on condition that he meet their demands. And the Bible makes it clear enough what he is recommending or seeking instead. I thought you came close to agreeing with that in the beginning of the reply I quoted, although your message seemed to change a bit as it went along.

...which isn't the same as the situation I was referring to. Many people don't want a sign; they want a deal, and on their own conditions, or else they will spite God by not believing. (So there, God. Take that! LOL).

Ah yes that doesn't work. I once went to a FreeThinker forum and there was a guy who used to even preach and then they told him 9/11 was God's will and he fell from his faith. He wrote a book that was similar to the one Richard Dawkins wrote. I, being naive and dumb, thought: lets go there and convert this bunch. So he said that he would go believe if God gave him an experience like Paul and I seriously prayed for God to do that and it didn't happen and he was a bit sad about it, it seemed. Later I thought: come on now. How dumb can you be. As if God would ever let him twist His arm. That guy was so proud. He walked away from God. He had to come back.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Have you ever asked Him to forgive your sins and come in your heart or to reveal Himself to you?

Every single day for years.

Your circumstances is sickness I think.

That's just one of them. There are numerous others.

If you get mad, why don't you get mad at satan instead of God?

I already answered this question once, didn't I? I have no expectations from an insane being who is blinded by sin. I have expectations from a Being Who calls Himself light without shadow, yet keeps us in the dark about why we suffer.

God is not in the business of bargaining with his own creatures, seeking their approval only on condition that he meet their demands.

Strange. He seems to be doing that all throughout the Old Testament. Most of the major prophets, who were God's mouthpieces, kept barganing with Israel in all sort of manners to make them return to God and abandon their sins.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18)

 

[Messy]

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[Messy]

Prophecy from Smith Wigglesworth:

Then he prophesied, “After that, after the third wave,” he started sobbing. “I see the last day revival that’s going to usher in the precious fruit of the earth. It will be the greatest revival this world has ever seen! It’s going to be a wave of the gifts of the Spirit. The ministry gifts will be flowing on this planet earth. I see hospitals being emptied out, and they will bring the sick to the churches where they allow the Holy Ghost to move.”

I saw this and it reminded me that God often wanted to give revival in Holland, but the church leaders would not let Him. There was a revival in Nijkerk I think centuries ago and they stopped it. They would not let the Holy Spirit move. So much for 'God does what He wants and if it doesn't happen it's His fault'.

 

[heavenslight]

If faith healing was real, they would prove it by demanding that the scientific method analyze it. The studies they've done on intercessory prayer so far have been inconclusive. Some people who were prayed for got better, others got worse.

But, of course, you can't be intellectually honest and a Christian because the Bible says that God is not a God of confusion, yet at the same time His ways are mysterious, so you have to make a lot of mental gymnastics to try to reconcile why Jesus said that believers will have His powers, yet we don't see 2 billion wandering Christians healing hunchbacked people and raising the dead.

Lucien Hodoboc, unfortunately I have been very busy lately and do not have the time to diligently wade through all of the threads and carry on extended dialogues. However, I would like to recommend a book by Craig Keener, Miracles, the Credibility of New Testament Accounts in 2 volumes The book is academic, pricy, footnoted and includes documented instances of several hundred healings and other miraculous phenomena as well as philosophical justification of the above. I have other books I could also recommend. Before passing judgement I urge you to purchase Mr Keener's book. I have also spoken with people who have had miraculous healings.

However, not everyone is healed and it is not always clear why this is the case. In some cases healings and other miraculous phenomena seem to occur to provide proof, evidence that Christianity is real. Previously, for a long while, I was a borderline atheist/ agnostic so empirical evidence and experiential proof of Christianity as opposed to blind faith was something I needed in order to be convinced of the reality of Christianity.

 

[atpollard]

What do you think I've been doing over the past 5 years?

Shaking your fist at Him for at least the last 2 or 3 years.
Openly ridiculing Him and His Word for at least the last year.

(That’s just the time I have been cognizant if you.)

 

[tango]

Seriously, I don't see anything wrong with having questions and doubts. I don't see anything wrong with the metaphorical equivalent of screaming at the sky something like "God, what the (expletive) are you doing right now?"

At the same time it's important to be intellectually honest if we truly want answers. It doesn't work to offer pat answers like "you can trust the Bible because the Bible says it can be trusted" because, you know, every con artist in history has said they could be trusted too. It also doesn't work to pull at a particular verse and claim it's a contradiction when there's an easy explanation, and it doesn't work to use something like AI to debunk anything. If you feed a lot of one particular viewpoint into an AI engine you can't be surprised when it starts to act as if that viewpoint is correct as opposed to, well, a viewpoint.

Respectfully Lucian, I see a lot of doubts and questions, which are not only acceptable but normal. I honestly think anyone who has never doubted has never thought and certainly has never been tested. At the same time I see a lot of intellectual dishonesty, suggesting that because you think it might have been done better it therefore follows that God should have done better and therefore God does not have one or more of the attributes typically assigned to him.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Shaking your fist at Him for at least the last 2 or 3 years.
Openly ridiculing Him and His Word for at least the last year.

(That’s just the time I have been cognizant if you.)

Human: "hey, God, You created me and I'm trying to obey you, I'm struggling, but I'm really trying, can you help me out here, cause my life is a mess"
God: *is silent*
*human's life gets worse*
*repeat interaction*
*repeat result*
*years pass*
*human gets frustrated*
Human: *starts questioning God*
Other humans:


I will question Him until I get answers because the Bible tells me to. Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you. So either I get answers or I prove that the Bible is wrong.

 

[Messy]

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Maybe He told others, who have a healing ministry. Sometimes God uses a preacher to speak to us.

 

[Messy]

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[Albion]

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Maybe He told others, who have a healing ministry. Sometimes God uses a preacher to speak to us.

Or...maybe he founded a church instead of a collection of competing one-man "ministries," each founded by a do-it-yourself evangelist who promotes his own personal religious theories and makes a living from it.

Just a thought.

 

[Messy]

Or...maybe he founded a church instead of a pack of do-it-yourself "ministries," each led by a self-appointed evangelist who teaches his own personal religious theories and makes a living from it.

Just a thought.

He had a church too. There are loads of Word of Faith churches. In Holland and Belgium they just teach on healing and work for free. I don't agree with all that they preach, but about healing it's Biblical and pentecostal churches preach the same thing. Just don't listen if they're money grabbers and that J.A. Dowie also went wrong later, but Kenneth Hagin warned all these money preachers before he died. You have to watch out, cause it's full of money grabbers and false teachers, but the lessons on healing by faith are Biblical. I want nothing to do with Copeland, Creflo Dollar and ppl like that, but there are genuine preachers, who believe this and people get healed. It's what Jesus taught the disciples. In some reformed churches they say God gives disease. It goes directly against God's Word, but that doesn't matter, cause some great old church fathers said it.

 

[Albion]

He had a church too. There are loads of Word of Faith churches.

Oh, dear.

I don't agree with all that they preach, but about healing it's Biblical and pentecostal churches preach the same thing. Just don't listen if they're money grabbers and that J.A. Dowie also went wrong later, but Kenneth Hagin warned all these money preachers before he died. You have to watch out, cause it's full of money grabbers and false teachers, but the lessons on healing by faith are Biblical. I want nothing to do with Copeland, Creflo Dollar and ppl like that,..

Are you sure that you haven't just chosen between these clones of each other?

but there are genuine preachers, who believe this and people get healed. It's what Jesus taught the disciples.

What we know, however, is that Jesus founded a church, and he named its first leaders who worked in concert, following the teachings and practices that the Lord intended the world to learn.

 

[Messy]

Oh, dear.


Are you sure that you haven't just chosen between these clones of each other?


What we know, however, is that Jesus founded a church, and he named its first leaders who worked in concert, following the teachings and practices that the Lord intended the world to learn.

Yes and they healed the sick and got persecuted and the church didnt want to be persecuted anymore and changed it and said the healings stopped and it was only for the time of the apostles.

 

[Messy]

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[Albion]

Yes and they healed the sick and got persecuted and the church didnt want to be persecuted anymore and changed it and said the healings stopped and it was only for the time of the apostles.

As you said there, it was "they," actual people, the Apostles and their appointees, NOT just anyone claiming to be a prophet, etc.

Here's an interesting article you might like to read. It's not very long.

Is the Word of Faith movement biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Is the Word of Faith movement biblical? Is it God’s will for all Christians to be physically healthy and financially prosperous?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Albion]

I will question Him until I get answers because the Bible tells me to. Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you. So either I get answers or I prove that the Bible is wrong.

It appears that you've already gotten your answers, Lucian. And the Bible does not in any way or in any place say to challenge God. In fact, it's just the opposite.


“You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah" (Deuteronomy 6:16)

"Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” (Luke 4:12)

 

[tango]

It appears that you've already gotten your answers, Lucian. And the Bible does not in any way or in any place say to challenge God. In fact, it's just the opposite.


“You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah" (Deuteronomy 6:16)

"Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” (Luke 4:12)

There's a difference between challenging God and looking for specific answers.

I'm thinking of Gideon and his fleece, for example.

 

[Messy]

As you said there, it was "they," actual people, the Apostles and their appointees, NOT just anyone claiming to be a prophet, etc.

Here's an interesting article you might like to read. It's not very long.

Is the Word of Faith movement biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Is the Word of Faith movement biblical? Is it God’s will for all Christians to be physically healthy and financially prosperous?

www.gotquestions.org

My goodness. I was wondering why all these wof guys were so weird, but kenneth hagin was good. Turns out he was also doing that holy laughter nonsense and he plagiarized kenyon, who was influenced by occult stuff, but also had good stuff. The good part of the teaching must have other roots then. Maybe Wesley. He also said God could do nothing on earth except when His people prayed and he's the one who said the church stopped the miracles.

John Wesley Saw Some Crazy Miracles! — Destiny Image

“The Holy Spirit began to move among us with amazing power when we met in his name…. These unusual works of the Holy Spirit continued to follow and bless my ministry.” – John Wesley Few names in church history carry as much influence as that of John Wesley (1703-1791) of England. He traveled ab

www.destinyimage.com

I can hardly believe that Hagin lied about being sick, but you cant trust anyone anymore these days.

 

[Albion]

There's a difference between challenging God and looking for specific answers.

I'm thinking of Gideon and his fleece, for example.

That's interesting, but I find that Gideon--who asked for a sign but didn't present any ultimatums to God and, in fact, was already a believer--represents something different from what I have been reading on this thread.