Our interaction with AI seems to debunk Biblical ideas

[Messy]

A system that cannot be judged is a totalitarian system, and perfect love cannot exist in a totalitarian system because perfect love drives out all fear. You can't have a totalitarian system without fear. Someone in the system will be displeased with their role in the system at one point and then they will continue to exercise said role only out of fear of punishment, which automatically drives out perfect love.

God is not Kim Yung Un. We have to obey, because you also have to obey your conscience. That's God speaking. If you don't, you hurt someone else and yourself. You don't want suffering. Neither do I. If you need healing, go find people from that group from Thorben Sondergaard or something. If you want to flee a lot of suffering, Jesus is almost coming back and that antichrist will come and then man will see what real totalitarianism is, what they accuse God of and then it costs you your life to chose God.

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

Proverbs 9:10, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.”


Look at Job. That really was satan bullying him for no reason and God saying go ahead and still he said his wife spoke like a fool when she said leave God and when he saw God it was all fine. He didn't even care.
He never got an explanation and he didn't mind. He saw God. God is Light and in Him there is no darkness at all. Ian Mc Cormack saw Him. Only pure Love.

You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’ “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”
Job 42:3‭-‬6 NKJV

Job 42:3-6 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; Y | New King James Version (NKJV) | Down

You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; Y

bible.com

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial

Oh, spare me this conditional love nonsense. If the omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent creator of everything acts like this, existence is a very weird thing.

"I will do this for you if you do this for me despite the fact that you didn't consent to existing and didn't agree to being subjected to this life, and you better be grateful or else you will be tortured for eternity"? These are words you'd expect from a tyrant, not from God.

 

[Messy]

Oh, spare me this conditional love nonsense. If the omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent creator of everything acts like this, existence is a very weird thing.

"I will do this for you if you do this for me despite the fact that you didn't consent to existing and didn't agree to being subjected to this life, and you better be grateful or else you will be tortured for eternity"? These are words you'd expect from a tyrant, not from God.

It's from Revelation. Not a warning about hell, but a warning to flee the 7 year persecution from the antichrist. You cannot be with God if you rebel. He is holy. We need to get holy too if we want to be around Him.
A tyrant who let Himself be killed for you. When is the last time Hitler or Mao or Kim gave his life for someone?

You can only choose between flesh/your own ego and spirit or between Satan and God/ your conscience. If you chose for yourself, you chose flesh, thus satan. I know who I chose.

You say God's love should be unconditional and ppl should be able to do what they want. Then heaven is just like earth. There will still be suffering. There will still be thieves, murderers and wars in heaven, cause everyone is welcome and be who you are and do as you please.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

A tyrant who let Himself be killed for you. When is the last time Hitler or Mao or Kim gave his life for someone?

I don't know why it had to happen, so I can't appreciate His sacrifice. How am I supposed to make sense of "it had to happen" within the worldview of a God with Whom"all things are possible"?

If all things are possible with God (as Jesus Himself said), then it would have been possible with God for the crucifixion to not happen. It would have been possible with God for Adam and Eve to be reconciled with God the minute after they realized their mistake. It would have been possible with God for satan to not be allowed to trick anyone. It would have been possible with God for lucifer not to rebel.

All these things that didn't involve suffering would have been possible with God. And seeing how they didn't happen, yet they were possible, I have to conclude that all these things were God's choices. The crucifixion was God's choice. So God chose to let Himself be killed for me. And I still don't know why it had to happen if it was possible to not happen. So how can I feel gratitude towards someone for doing something that He chose to do despite not being necessary?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If you need healing, go find people from that group from Thorben Sondergaard or something

If faith healing was real, they would prove it by demanding that the scientific method analyze it. The studies they've done on intercessory prayer so far have been inconclusive. Some people who were prayed for got better, others got worse.

But, of course, you can't be intellectually honest and a Christian because the Bible says that God is not a God of confusion, yet at the same time His ways are mysterious, so you have to make a lot of mental gymnastics to try to reconcile why Jesus said that believers will have His powers, yet we don't see 2 billion wandering Christians healing hunchbacked people and raising the dead.

 

[Stravinsk]

Oh, spare me this conditional love nonsense. If the omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent creator of everything acts like this, existence is a very weird thing.

"I will do this for you if you do this for me despite the fact that you didn't consent to existing and didn't agree to being subjected to this life, and you better be grateful or else you will be tortured for eternity"? These are words you'd expect from a tyrant, not from God.

I bolded the section of your quote I wanted to address. I think it's clear from numerous passages that all are judged, and there will be punishment. What I don't think is clear at all is the idea of suffering for eternity. This comes from the religious notion that all souls live forever. There are passages in the bible that indicate destruction, in the plain sense of the word, is for many. Ceasing to exist, after judgement. Torturing for eternity seems very much like man's interpretation to me. It also happens to keep people adhering to a church system that benefits from it.

 

[Messy]

I don't know why it had to happen, so I can't appreciate His sacrifice. How am I supposed to make sense of "it had to happen" within the worldview of a God with Whom"all things are possible"?

If all things are possible with God (as Jesus Himself said), then it would have been possible with God for the crucifixion to not happen. It would have been possible with God for Adam and Eve to be reconciled with God the minute after they realized their mistake. It would have been possible with God for satan to not be allowed to trick anyone. It would have been possible with God for lucifer not to rebel.

All these things that didn't involve suffering would have been possible with God. And seeing how they didn't happen, yet they were possible, I have to conclude that all these things were God's choices. The crucifixion was God's choice. So God chose to let Himself be killed for me. And I still don't know why it had to happen if it was possible to not happen. So how can I feel gratitude towards someone for doing something that He chose to do despite not being necessary?

It was necessary. There was no other way. All things are possible, but God can't create a stone He can't lift. They listened to satan, got to know evil, became spiritually one with him and became half evil and then all the suffering started. Cain killed his brother. This evil nature had to die. God works by justice. He is just. He can't go against His own nature. He gave the authority over the earth to man. They gave it to satan and made him god. God could now not just take it back. He had to become man and take the authority back. Satan said to Jesus that all those countries were given to him. Jesus did not say he lied. He had to get the authority back from satan by dying and getting raised and then get as many as possible ppl saved and overcome satan, so Jesus can reign. He could now, but that would mean ppl would not get saved. He has to wait. And we died with Him. The sinful nature died with Him, so we can be born again from the Spirit and be reconciled with God and become like God.
God can't go against someone's free will. He can't make Lucifer or another angel or man that they never sin. That would be authoritarian. No free will. If He wanted that, He should have only made animals, but He wanted people, who would be like Him.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

There are passages in the bible that indicate destruction

There are passages in the Bible to support all sort of doctrines. It's a book filled with contradictory passages, as it can be easily seen. You can even support reincarnation by using some passages.

 

[Messy]

If faith healing was real, they would prove it by demanding that the scientific method analyze it. The studies they've done on intercessory prayer so far have been inconclusive. Some people who were prayed for got better, others got worse.

But, of course, you can't be intellectually honest and a Christian because the Bible says that God is not a God of confusion, yet at the same time His ways are mysterious, so you have to make a lot of mental gymnastics to try to reconcile why Jesus said that believers will have His powers, yet we don't see 2 billion wandering Christians healing hunchbacked people and raising the dead.

The apostles couldn't even heal a man's son. When ppl got healed in Peter's shadow, he fasted and prayed. There was unity. He had grown in faith. He gave his life. They all did. You expect the same results from whatever christian, who maybe isn't even taught that God wants to heal?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

It was necessary. There was no other way. All things are possible, but God can't create a stone He can't lift. They listened to satan, got to know evil, became spiritually one with him and became half evil and then all the suffering started. Cain killed his brother. This evil nature had to die. God works by justice. He is just. He can't go against His own nature. He gave the authority over the earth to man. They gave it to satan and made him god. God could now not just take it back. He had to become man and take the authority back. Satan said to Jesus that all those countries were given to him. Jesus did not say he lied. He had to get the authority back from satan by dying and getting raised and then get as many as possible ppl saved and overcome satan, so Jesus can reign. He could now, but that would mean ppl would not get saved. He has to wait. And we died with Him. The sinful nature died with Him, so we can be born again from the Spirit and be reconciled with God and become like God.
God can't go against someone's free will. He can't make Lucifer or another angel or man that they never sin. That would be authoritarian. No free will. If He wanted that, He should have only made animals, but He wanted people, who would be like Him.

This isn't about paradoxes. It was perfectly possible for God to have foreknowledge of the fact that ludifer would rebel and choose to not create lucifer. It was perfectly possible for God to make Eve barren immediately after the fall so that she didn't bear any children and thus, only she and Adam would have to be reconciled with God. It was perfectly possible for God to send Jesus to be born a few generations after the fall, like during Enoch's time, so that as few as possible would have to suffer.

As for God not going against someone's free will? Uhm, are we forgetting Pharaoh? Can God not make things ridiculously difficult for some people as to coerce them into doing His will? Yes, He can. Example: Jonah. He could have made things so difficult for satan that satan would have just given up.

 

[Stravinsk]

There are passages in the Bible to support all sort of doctrines. It's a book filled with contradictory passages, as it can be easily seen. You can even support reincarnation by using some passages.

Why don't you look into it?

Matthew 10 :: King James Version (KJV) (Quote of Christ)
G622 - apollymi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (meaning of word "destroy")

If I destroy a glass container, it ceases to be a container. I cannot call it that anymore. The material that once made it a container may still exist, but the container as an object is gone completely. So when Christ speaks of destruction of souls, it seems to me this simple analogy also applies.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The apostles couldn't even heal a man's son. When ppl got healed in Peter's shadow, he fasted and prayed. There was unity. He had grown in faith. He gave his life. They all did. You expect the same results from whatever christian, who maybe isn't even taught that God wants to heal?

There's no mention about fasting and prayer in His promises. ANYTHING you ask for you shall receive if you have faith.

 

[Messy]

There's no mention about fasting and prayer in His promises. ANYTHING you ask for you shall receive if you have faith.

Matthew 17

And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is [c]an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. 16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.”

17 Then Jesus answered and said, “O [d]faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me.” 18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”

20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your [e]unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21 [f]However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”

 

[Messy]

This isn't about paradoxes. It was perfectly possible for God to have foreknowledge of the fact that ludifer would rebel and choose to not create lucifer. It was perfectly possible for God to make Eve barren immediately after the fall so that she didn't bear any children and thus, only she and Adam would have to be reconciled with God. It was perfectly possible for God to send Jesus to be born a few generations after the fall, like during Enoch's time, so that as few as possible would have to suffer.

As for God not going against someone's free will? Uhm, are we forgetting Pharaoh? Can God not make things ridiculously difficult for some people as to coerce them into doing His will? Yes, He can. Example: Jonah. He could have made things so difficult for satan that satan would have just given up.

Pharao first chose himself. He hardened his own heart. Someone said he sinned against the Spirit, because he knew this was God when he saw His power, but he still hardened his heart and then he went too far. Jonah, Paul. Jesus saved Paul, but not another pharisee, because Paul did it in ignorance. If they sin fully knowing, seeing His power, then they go too far.


He could also only have made Adam and he wouldn't have sinned, but would still be chilling here alone with the animals. She tempted him. He didn't blame satan. He blamed God for giving her to him.

I don't know when satan fell. I'm not sure God knew. Because Jesus is the innocent Lamb of God, so I used to think that He used to be like Adam and Eve and only got to know evil by experience when satan sinned against Him, cause how else could God know evil when He's good? Not by doing it, but by experiencing the evil being done to you, but I may be wrong. If he fell when the earth was already made, God knew. Doesn't matter to me, cause I know God is good anyway. Better do effort to get to know Him than talk about Him.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Better do effort to get to know Him

What do you think I've been doing over the past 5 years?

I don't know what more to do other than to read the Bible and pray on me knees. I've told God, "God, I don't like Your ways, please make me like your ways" hundreds of times. I've begged for Him to make me love Him. The more I did this, the worse my situation got and the worse my situation got, the angrier I got with Him.

There is absolutely nothing in my power that I am aware of left for me to do. I'm beyond tired of this game of hide-and-seek and of God's whims.

 

[Messy]

What do you think I've been doing over the past 5 years?

I don't know what more to do other than to read the Bible and pray on me knees. I've told God, "God, I don't like Your ways, please make me like your ways" hundreds of times. I've begged for Him to make me love Him. The more I did this, the worse my situation got and the worse my situation got, the angrier I got with Him.

There is absolutely nothing in my power that I am aware of left for me to do. I'm beyond tired of this game of hide-and-seek and of God's whims.

Have you ever asked Him to forgive your sins and come in your heart or to reveal Himself to you? Your circumstances is sickness I think. God doesn't want anyone to be sick. Don't blame Him for that and don't think He wants that.

how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

I'll pray harder and will try to fast. I'm also rebuking sickness for my dad. I don't pray once. I have been praying for months. I just don't give up. It's not God's will. By His stripes you are healed. Don't accept it. If you get mad, why don't you get mad at satan instead of God? That's what I would do if I got really mad.

 

[Albion]

Have you ever asked Him to forgive your sins and come in your heart or to reveal Himself to you?

As I remember, the forum has addressed this kind of problem before.

The 'problem' is in thinking that any of us can find God by offering to strike a bargain with him that you (meaning anyone) will believe IF and WHEN he first performs for you and does it to your specifications--in order to prove, of course, that he's real, or that he cares, or that he is capable, or whatever.

 

[Messy]

As I remember, the forum has addressed this kind of problem before.

The 'problem' is in thinking that any of us can find God by offering to strike a bargain with him that you (meaning anyone) will believe IF and WHEN he first performs for you and does it to your specifications--in order to prove, of course, that he's real, or that he cares, or that he is capable, or whatever.

What's the problem with that? The pharisees asked for a sign and didn't get it, because they were not sincere, but when you're sincere and really cannot believe otherwise, He can help you that way.
The nobleman did get a miracle and then he believed with his whole household. He was sincere.

6 So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain [b]nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”

49 The nobleman said to Him, “Sir, come down before my child dies!”

50 Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your son lives.” So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, “Your son lives!”

52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, “Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.” 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives.” And he himself believed, and his whole household.


I wasn't raised christian. My dad joked about God. I thought He didnt exist, cause my dad said so. But as a teen I read occult stuff about ghosts and I was like: maybe there is also a head ghost, so I decided to check it out. For a year I said stuff like: if I don't get an A for German I don't believe in God anymore (anymore, maybe I did believe). I was a badly raised bozo teen and had never heard that you shouldn't do such a thing. We never went to church. So it happened and weekly or daily I would say such stuff and it happened and after a year, when I said if I don't win this tennis game I don't believe in God and I was playing lousy, she was way better, but all of a sudden I won (sorry) it was all too coincidental. I was convinced that God existed and then my brother, who had been Zen meditating and saw Jesus while doing that, went looking for a church and then took me there and I thought that was that, but after a few months it dawned on me that I had to ask God to forgive my sins and then I changed. After that I of course wasn't that rude anymore, but first I really thought He didn't exist anyway.

 

[tango]

A system that cannot be judged is a totalitarian system, and perfect love cannot exist in a totalitarian system because perfect love drives out all fear. You can't have a totalitarian system without fear. Someone in the system will be displeased with their role in the system at one point and then they will continue to exercise said role only out of fear of punishment, which automatically drives out perfect love.

If you assume that every person has one and only one role they are allowed to do, that may be true. Take away the assumption and, just like so many other sweeping generalisations, the whole thing collapses.

For your comment to stand you also have to assume that there is no judging "the system". We have free will, we have information and we have choices. You can't use claims of totalitarianism to essentially push an alternative in which we are told what options we have and what consequences will follow each option and then expect to be able to choose option A with consequence B. It might be nice to sit around watching TV and eating ice cream all day while still staying slim, but it doesn't work that way. You can ask why it doesn't work that way but thinking you have any right to demand it works that way, or assigning attributes to the designer of the system because they didn't do it the way you think it should be done, doesn't make it totalitarian.

As has been mentioned before, maybe there's more to the design philosophy than you or I happen to understand.

 

[Albion]

What's the problem with that?

God is not in the business of bargaining with his own creatures, seeking their approval only on condition that he meet their demands. And the Bible makes it clear enough what he is recommending or seeking instead. I thought you came close to agreeing with that in the beginning of the reply I quoted, although your message seemed to change a bit as it went along.

The pharisees asked for a sign and didn't get it, because they were not sincere, but when you're sincere and really cannot believe otherwise, He can help you that way.
The nobleman did get a miracle and then he believed with his whole household. He was sincere.

...which isn't the same as the situation I was referring to. Many people don't want a sign; they want a deal, and on their own conditions, or else they will spite God by not believing. (So there, God. Take that! LOL).