Our interaction with AI seems to debunk Biblical ideas

[tango]

That's interesting, but I find that Gideon--who asked for a sign but didn't present any ultimatums to God and, in fact, was already a believer--represents something different from what I have been reading on this thread.

I think it was this thread (it may have been another one, I forget) where I commented that it's perfectly OK to have doubts and questions, and perfectly OK to ask questions of God and of others, but there's no point asking questions from a place of intellectual dishonesty.

I don't know any details of Lucian's life other than what he has shared on the board but from what I recall of what he has shared I think I'd be asking questions if I were in a similar situation.. My only issue is the sense of intellectual dishonesty that I mentioned in a previous post. I'm really not seeing ultimatums.

I can't help but think of Psalm 13 when reading some of his posts.

 

[Messy]

That's interesting, but I find that Gideon--who asked for a sign but didn't present any ultimatums to God and, in fact, was already a believer--represents something different from what I have been reading on this thread.

What is dangerous is all that God is evil talk. Sounds exactly like what those angry ex christians say. I would watch out with that. I have been angry at God. How can He answer you when you're mad at Him and sinning? You first have to repent from that, before He can give you an answer. I get it a bit though. When my kids were taken from me, the only reason I did not get mad at God and leave Him was that I thought He was not able to do anything about it and He wasn't, cause I was living in sin, which I then did not understand. Imagine they taught me in church: God caused this and He just wants you to suffer. Hello. That would make everyone mad. Suffering for Christ to get ppl saved, okay, but not having your 3 month old baby taken from you cause God thinks it's funny. Kid had problems with it until he was 10.

 

[Albion]

My only issue is the sense of intellectual dishonesty that I mentioned in a previous post. I'm really not seeing ultimatums.

The following is one of the postings that seemed to be in that category, but perhaps there is another word that could have been used instead.

I will question Him until I get answers because the Bible tells me to. Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you. So either I get answers or I prove that the Bible is wrong.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

It appears that you've already gotten your answers, Lucian.

No, I have not. Not in any way that I can discern them, anyway.

And the Bible does not in any way or in any place say to challenge God. In fact, it's just the opposite.


“You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah" (Deuteronomy 6:16)

"Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” (Luke 4:12)

Like I said, the Bible says many contradictory things:

"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it." (Malachi 3:10)

"Taste and see that the Lord is good." (Psalm 34:8)

 

[Albion]

The good part of the teaching must have other roots then. Maybe Wesley. He also said God could do nothing on earth except when His people prayed and he's the one who said the church stopped the miracles.

John Wesley Saw Some Crazy Miracles! — Destiny Image

“The Holy Spirit began to move among us with amazing power when we met in his name…. These unusual works of the Holy Spirit continued to follow and bless my ministry.” – John Wesley Few names in church history carry as much influence as that of John Wesley (1703-1791) of England. He traveled ab

www.destinyimage.com

I can't find the reference to Wesley saying that the church stopped the miracles. Could you point me to your source? Thanks.

 

[Albion]

Like I said, the Bible says many contradictory things:

"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it." (Malachi 3:10)

"Taste and see that the Lord is good." (Psalm 34:8)

I didn't take issue with that ("Bible says many contradictory things"), but now that you refer to it, I might add that the Bible seems to say many things that appear to be contradictory.

Time after time, the "contradictions" turn out not to be contradictions after all when the meaning of whatever it is gets studied more closely.

 

[Messy]

I can't find the reference to Wesley saying that the church stopped the miracles. Could you point me to your source? Thanks.

It's in that link:

Why Had the Gifts Diminished?​

While Wesley had seen many manifestations of the Holy Spirit, he was curious as to why the gifts and demonstrations of the Holy Spirit, so prevalent in the early church, had diminished so greatly over the centuries. Referring back to the time of Constantine and the increasing institutionalization of the Church, he addresses this issue head-on:

The cause of this was not (as has been vulgarly supposed) that there was no more need or occasion for them, because all the world had become Christian. This is a miserable mistake. Not a twentieth part of the world was then nominally Christian. The real cause of the loss was that the love of many, almost all the so-called Christians had grown cold. The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when He came to examine His church, could hardly find faith on earth. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were no longer to be found in the Christian church after that time. It was because the Christians had turned heathen again, and had only a dead form left. So, when this faith and holiness were nearly lost, dry, formal, orthodox men began even then to ridicule whatever gifts they did not have themselves. They belittled and discredited all the gifts of the Spirit as either madness or fraud.

In another communication, Wesley responded to a Dr. Middleton, an anti-supernaturalist who claimed that the gift of tongues had not been heard of since the Reformation. Wesley counters by referring to the French Protestants, who in recent times had claimed to exercise tongues and other miraculous powers.

Wesley actually bemoaned the overall condition of the church relative to the Holy Spirit and his wonderful gifts. Though Wesley witnessed numerous expressions of God’s power, he realized that the church, generally speaking, was unaccustomed to and uncomfortable with the third member of the Godhead.

 

[Albion]

Thanks. I don't know why I couldn't find that info in the article, but what you just reprinted makes the reference clear. And I don't doubt that what it says there is real history since basically the same trend had developed in Wesley's own Church of England in his day.

 

[tango]

The following is one of the postings that seemed to be in that category, but perhaps there is another word that could have been used instead.

Is it an ultimatum to expect a promise to be kept?

If God says "you do this and I will do that", you go ahead and do this and then God doesn't do that, is it unreasonable to question the promise?

Of course it's worth being sure that you didn't misunderstand the promise, and that it applies to you in your situation and the like, but in a situation where things don't make sense it's hardly unreasonable for people to try and understand why.

 

[Messy]

-.

 

[atpollard]

I will question Him until I get answers because the Bible tells me to.

[shrug] I got no dog in your fight, but you might want to reread your posts objectively (not your posts to me, your posts about God) and ask yourself if you are really “questioning Him”?

From the sidelines, it appears that you have moved beyond “questioning”.

Psalm 1:1 [NIV] Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers …

 

[Albion]

Is it an ultimatum to expect a promise to be kept?

No, but that wasn't the issue.

 

[tango]

No, but that wasn't the issue.

I might be misunderstanding the intention but I think that's exactly what Lucian is doing. Perhaps his choice of wording isn't always what we might have chosen but I'd rather see someone who is posting based on what they are thinking than someone who is trying to sound ever-so-holy while pretending their questions aren't significant ones.

Perhaps Psalm 13 puts it better but if someone feels that God is hiding his face from them it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to ask why, and indeed to ask whether the face-hiding is for some specific reason - it would seem to be hugely intellectually dishonest to not at least consider the possibility there is no face to be hidden.

 

[atpollard]

Paul asked to have the thorn that TORMENTED him removed, the answer from God was no. Paul was to go on being TORMENTED (so said God). [shrug]. How about that? I have to wonder if it has any applicability to our lives? … naw, probably not. God just wants to bless us and make US prosper, right?

What sort of God exists when he blesses you, but doesn’t exist when you have trouble in your life? I am having trouble understanding that.

 

[tango]

Paul asked to have the thorn that TORMENTED him removed, the answer from God was no. Paul was to go on being TORMENTED (so said God). [shrug]. How about that? I have to wonder if it has any applicability to our lives? … naw, probably not. God just wants to bless us and make US prosper, right?

What sort of God exists when he blesses you, but doesn’t exist when you have trouble in your life? I am having trouble understanding that.

Presumably Paul wasn't deemed out of line for asking to have the thorn removed though, right?

 

[Stravinsk]

Paul asked to have the thorn that TORMENTED him removed, the answer from God was no. Paul was to go on being TORMENTED (so said God). [shrug]. How about that? I have to wonder if it has any applicability to our lives? … naw, probably not. God just wants to bless us and make US prosper, right?

What sort of God exists when he blesses you, but doesn’t exist when you have trouble in your life? I am having trouble understanding that.

For some reason Paul needed a Job-like story to lend credit to his bull-stuff. He is not behind the "chiefest of the apostles" 2 Cor 12:11 but he "will not glory in myself" 2 Cor 12:5. Paul implies a torment is needed to keep him humble, because apparently revelations make one arrogant. I wonder how God tormented John for the Revelation or the Prophets of the OT for theirs.

To me his whole diatribe here is to lend the greatest amount of credit and glory to himself while still pretending to be super humble.

"I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you:" 2 Cor 12:11

You really should recognize my greatness, man.

"for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles,"

The big dawgs, (you know those guys that traveled with and were taught by Christ)...got nothing on me.

"though I be nothing."

I declare to you my humbleness.

I have to feel a bit sorry for the believer (in Paul) who takes this all seriously. It's a mind-bender only in a religious context. Anyone saying similar things outside a religious context would be recognized for the phony braggart-pretending-to-be-humble fake that he or she is.

 

[Messy]

Paul implies a torment is needed to keep him humble, because apparently revelations make one arrogant. I wonder how God tormented John for the Revelation or the Prophets of the OT for theirs.

God didn't torment John, but they did try to kill him and when they didn't succeed they sent him to Patmos, where he got the Revelation. An angel from satan to stomp him with fists could be that God allowed people to beat him up.

 

[atpollard]

Presumably Paul wasn't deemed out of line for asking to have the thorn removed though, right?

Not in my opinion.
Nor do I think @Lucian Hodoboc out of line for asking to have his thorn removed (or even being angry, to be blunt about it … I would likely be angry in similar circumstances).

I am only pointing out that … from the limited view from the outside looking on … that “anger” has given way to “bitterness” and “asking” has morphed into “mocking”. As a former atheist, I can completely understand rejecting God. As an atheist convinced of the truth of Christianity, I find disbelieving what I now KNOW to be real inconceivable. I just think honesty (to oneself) is the best choice forward and claiming to be a “questioning christian” if one has moved on to “mocking disbelief” serves no useful purpose.

 

[atpollard]

I wonder how God tormented John for the Revelation or the Prophets of the OT for theirs.

I know it is extra-Biblical history by that point in time, but wasn’t John a physically broken man, blind and weak living on Patmos when he had the vision in Revelation. I remember reading something (a brief reference) to John in a letter from an ECF that implied that he could barely talk during his visit to the church.

 

[Albion]

What sort of God exists when he blesses you, but doesn’t exist when you have trouble in your life? I am having trouble understanding that.

That would be a god who is just as well as loving and who knows much more about what's good for us than we do.

To suppose that God operates something like a dispensing machine that will produce whatever is wanted, under any and all circumstances...

...is to believe in something less than the omnipotent, omnipresent, creator of all that exists. It is to believe in a demi-god similar to those believed in by the ancient cultures and civilizations, but not the God of the Bible.