Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Albion]

Meaning what, exactly?

Meaning His death Justified the ungodly sinners He died for. Made them Righteous !

Shall I take it that you don't have an answer to the question then? Nothing other than the obvious, which is that Christ died for sinners--a point that no one here seems to dispute? Obviously, if everyone kept the law perfectly, there wouldn't have been the Incarnation, Calvary, or any of that.

This is error [that Christ made something possible], scripture says nothing about Christ made something possible, especially in the matter of Justification, His Death Justified them He died for, not made it possible, away with such nonsense !

Meaning that Faith is irrelevant in your view. To your way of thinking, a certain group of sinners, and only that group, was given a free pass to heaven, period. Is that it??

And by the way also, if it's as you wrote, "His Death Justified them," then the consequences of what Christ did certainly can be described as him having made that change possible!

 

[brightfame52]

Shall I take it that you don't have an answer to the question then? Nothing other than the obvious, which is that Christ died for sinners--a point that no one here seems to dispute? Obviously, if everyone kept the law perfectly, there wouldn't have been the Incarnation, Calvary, or any of that.



Meaning that Faith is irrelevant in your view. To your way of thinking, a certain group of sinners, and only that group, was given a free pass to heaven, period. Is that it?? And by the way also, if this is what Christ did, it certainly can be described as him having made that change possible!

Faith looks to Christ as having already Justified them He died for. Otherwise you have no faith but are in unbelief ! So again, this is simply about those who Christ died for, are Justified. If you dont believe that, you have no Faith in Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

albion

, if this is what Christ did, it certainly can be described as him having made that change possible!

More error, scripture says nothing about Christ making something possible, Christ Justified them He died for Isa 53:10-11

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

 

[Albion]

Faith looks to Christ as having already Justified them He died for. Otherwise you have no faith but are in unbelief

However you word it, Faith is an essential, and that means that your scenario is missing something.

So again, this is simply about those who Christ died for, are Justified. If you dont believe that, you have no Faith in Christ !

That's so imprecise as to be of no value to us. "Those who Christ died for are justified." Well, yes, we weren't thinking that there are some people he didn't die for but who are nevertheless justified without him or despite him having excluded them.

Still, I was attempting to get a complete explanation from you as to what your contention actually is. That means that I accept what you've said here as your stance, whether or not I agree with it. And what that stance is has been stated by you enough for us to know that your view is that Christ died for a select group of people who were, as a result, justified without anything more being a necessary part of the process--Faith in Christ as Lord and Savior, for instance.

I cannot think of a single Christian denomination other than for the few of the Unitarian Universalist congregations which might agree with your view as stated, but you're still entitled to hold that view. Thanks for your cooperation as we explored the matter.

 

[brightfame52]

However you word it, Faith is an essential, and that means that your scenario is missing something.

That's so imprecise as to be of no value to us. "Those who Christ died for are justified." Well, yes, we weren't thinking that there are some people he didn't die for but who are nevertheless justified without him or despite him having excluded them.

Still, I was attempting to get a complete explanation from you as to what your contention actually is. That means that I accept what you've said here as your stance, whether or not I agree with it. And what that stance is has been stated by you enough for us to know that your view is that Christ died for a select group of people who were, as a result, justified without anything more being a necessary part of the process--Faith in Christ as Lord and Savior, for instance.

I cannot think of a single Christian denomination other than for the few of the Unitarian Universalist congregations which might agree with your view as stated, but you're still entitled to hold that view. Thanks for your cooperation as we explored the matter.

Faith is essential as a by product of Justification by Christ, it follows Justification, thats why its promised The Just shall live by Faith. Faith identifies the ones Christ died for and Justified, so the moral of the story is, if one never is given Faith in Christ, it means He didnt die for them.

 

[Messy]

Faith looks to Christ as having already Justified them He died for. Otherwise you have no faith but are in unbelief ! So again, this is simply about those who Christ died for, are Justified. If you dont believe that, you have no Faith in Christ !

You just said it doesn't matter if you have faith in Christ. If you're elect you may now be the worst antitheist, you have been justified and died with Christ 2000 years ago, which I agree is true, but does it benefit them to tell them that or should you preach repent and get saved and baptized and first go test if God exists and ask Him to reveal Himself to you, because who searches will find or do you say 50 or less percent chance you're elected at random, so go chill, you don't need faith if you're elected anyway and if you're doomed, you can't change it anyway.
This is just similar to calvinism. Calvinism may say faith is needed, but if Jesus only died for some, because God only wanted to save some, christians still doubt if they are elected on their death bed. There are churches full in Holland with ppl who believe in God, go to church every week and still doubt if they are even elected and if they will make it to heaven.

 

[Albion]

Faith is essential as a by product of Justification by Christ,

Well, I did think that was your perspective, but virtually no church agrees with the idea that Faith is merely "a by product." What's more, I don't see any room for arguing that it is only a "by product" if we turn to the Bible for its own treatment of Faith (which is extensive).

 

[Albion]

This is just similar to calvinism. Calvinism may say faith is needed, but if Jesus only died for some, because God only wanted to save some, christians still doubt if they are elected on their death bed. There are churches full in Holland with ppl who believe in God, go to church every week and still doubt if they are even elected and if they will make it to heaven.

In addition, there must be plenty of people who belong to those churches, believe in Christ, and assume that they are among the elect because they do believe...whereas they might just be lost souls who are fooling themselves (if what Bf52 has been telling us here were actually correct).

 

[brightfame52]

You just said it doesn't matter if you have faith in Christ. If you're elect you may now be the worst antitheist, you have been justified and died with Christ 2000 years ago, which I agree is true, but does it benefit them to tell them that or should you preach repent and get saved and baptized and first go test if God exists and ask Him to reveal Himself to you, because who searches will find or do you say 50 or less percent chance you're elected at random, so go chill, you don't need faith if you're elected anyway and if you're doomed, you can't change it anyway.
This is just similar to calvinism. Calvinism may say faith is needed, but if Jesus only died for some, because God only wanted to save some, christians still doubt if they are elected on their death bed. There are churches full in Holland with ppl who believe in God, go to church every week and still doubt if they are even elected and if they will make it to heaven.

Now you lying on me. Faith is essential because its an by product of Christ death justifying one. If one doesnt come to Faith, Christ didnt die for them and Justify them. Dont resort to lying !

 

[brightfame52]

Well, I did think that was your perspective, but virtually no church agrees with the idea that Faith is merely "a by product." What's more, I don't see any room for arguing that it is only a "by product" if we turn to the Bible for its own treatment of Faith (which is extensive).

Yes Faith is the fruit, by product of having been Justified by Christs death. If one never comes to faith, it means Christ didnt die for that person.

 

[Messy]

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[Messy]

Now you lying on me. Faith is essential because its an by product of Christ death justifying one. If one doesnt come to Faith, Christ didnt die for them and Justify them. Dont resort to lying !

Must have read it wrong. Lying is done on purpose. It's even worse though:

brightfame52 said:
Now all this goes to show the Gospel Truth, that by His Death alone, all those He died for are accounted Righteous before God's Law and Justice, BEFORE THEY BELIEVE ! In fact before they are born sinners. To deny this is to deny the Gospel of God, it Deny's the Death of Christ, which leaves one without any other hope of Salvation !


If that's true only you will go to heaven, cause I have never heard that anyone believed this. I may be wrong though. Maybe there is a tiny group. Can't find it w Google.

 

[prism]

Yes but what about those who believe for a while? The plant does die in the parable of the sower, but aaah maybe now I get it. The plant is faith. Their faith died. They weren't even reborn yet then. A new spirit can't die, cause it's born from God and can't sin. Weird though that someone He never knew can partake of the Spirit. Maybe that text is about someone like Judas. He did partake. He was never saved, but did heal the sick with the others.

John 6:70-71 LSB
Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” [71] Now He was speaking of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

Judas was numbered among the Apostles but that was about it... never born again...

Acts 1:17-20 KJV
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. [18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. [19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. [20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

 

[brightfame52]

Must have read it wrong. Lying is done on purpose. It's even worse though:

brightfame52 said:
Now all this goes to show the Gospel Truth, that by His Death alone, all those He died for are accounted Righteous before God's Law and Justice, BEFORE THEY BELIEVE ! In fact before they are born sinners. To deny this is to deny the Gospel of God, it Deny's the Death of Christ, which leaves one without any other hope of Salvation !


If that's true only you will go to heaven, cause I have never heard that anyone believed this. I may be wrong though. Maybe there is a tiny group. Can't find it w Google.

A lie is a lie whether you did it on purpose or not. You should have the decorum to read what a person actually post and then comment on that. Now Faith is essential in Salvation because its the fruit, by product of Justification. People who Christ died for are Justified by His Death, then sometime during their life time, God gives them Faith to come into the knowledge of it.

 

[Albion]

-

 

[Messy]

A lie is a lie whether you did it on purpose or not. You should have the decorum to read what a person actually post and then comment on that. Now Faith is essential in Salvation because its the fruit, by product of Justification. People who Christ died for are Justified by His Death, then sometime during their life time, God gives them Faith to come into the knowledge of it.

Okay great. Jesus dies with the bride in mind. Then God gives those faith. Then you say if you don't believe they are justified (means made just?) when they are still in unbelief and sin and before they accept Christ, then you have no real faith. No lie. I quoted that. So I must believe that I was just when I was not just and my sinful nature wasn't dead yet, just because it had happened in 28AD. So you throw an extra demand in, which is nowhere in the Bible and thus a lie. And that's why I'm not very interested in diligently reading everything you wrote.

Everyone who calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Jesus rose, so the only thing you can say is that the new man is just and we have to put on the new man. Before I accepted Christ I had no new heart/spirit. I was flesh. I wanted to nuke the world, cause I was an extreme vegetarian, kill all ppl and then all animals could live with each other in peace. That was not just.

And that's why I thought you said faith doesn't matter, meaning: when I was without faith and in sin apparently I was just anyway without faith, so faith didn't matter. Now it turns out you say faith is a byproduct. That makes it clearer. Jesus' death removes sin, the new man rose with Him from the dead. That's the new spirit we get when we get saved and not before you get saved, so although yes the new I was already righteous 2000 years ago it was not me yet cause I was the old Adam and I don't live anymore, but Christ in me. That happened with conversion, but Thorben Sondergaard says baptism.

 

[brightfame52]

Okay great. Jesus dies with the bride in mind. Then God gives those faith. Then you say if you don't believe they are justified (means made just?) when they are still in unbelief and sin and before they accept Christ, then you have no real faith. No lie. I quoted that. So I must believe that I was just when I was not just and my sinful nature wasn't dead yet, just because it had happened in 28AD. So you throw an extra demand in, which is nowhere in the Bible and thus a lie. And that's why I'm not very interested in diligently reading everything you wrote.

Everyone who calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Jesus rose, so the only thing you can say is that the new man is just and we have to put on the new man. Before I accepted Christ I had no new heart/spirit. I was flesh. I wanted to nuke the world, cause I was an extreme vegetarian, kill all ppl and then all animals could live with each other in peace. That was not just.

And that's why I thought you said faith doesn't matter, meaning: when I was without faith and in sin apparently I was just anyway without faith, so faith didn't matter. Now it turns out you say faith is a byproduct. That makes it clearer. Jesus' death removes sin, the new man rose with Him from the dead. That's the new spirit we get when we get saved and not before you get saved, so although yes the new I was already righteous 2000 years ago it was not me yet cause I was the old Adam and I don't live anymore, but Christ in me. That happened with conversion, but Thorben Sondergaard says baptism.

Yes those who are given Faith to believe in Jesus, had been Justified by His Blood. People who Faith is never given to , its because Christ didnt die for them and Justify them. Just like Jesus said to the unbelieving jews Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Meaning you must first be a chosen justified Sheep of Christ in order to become a believer, otherwise we remain already condemned in unbelief Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Albion]

Yes those who are given Faith to believe in Jesus, had been Justified by His Blood. People who Faith is never given to , its because Christ didnt die for them and Justify them. Just like Jesus said to the unbelieving jews Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So, you've defined sheep there as people who were not justified in advance. But the verse itself doesn't say that.

Meaning you must first be a chosen justified Sheep of Christ in order to become a believer,

So, this is one person's guess. Yours, in this case. Rather than being a reference to an Elect or even to the Jewish people, the reference in John 10 is normally understood to be to prideful and obstinate people whose minds are closed to the Lord's teaching and message.

otherwise we remain already condemned in unbelief Jn 3:18

...but not because of having been excluded from any pre-selection (Election) prior to our births.

And John 3:18 is not speaking of the same thing as John 10 does. This can be seen if we read the very next verse (John 3:19) where we find: "19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

True, unbelievers will not be saved. Faith is necessary and it is not a mere "by-product" of predestination.

But there is no reference here to an Elect or to the Jews in particular.

 

[Messy]

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[brightfame52]

Justification an act of God's Grace ! 3

#3 Now those who are Justified by Christ's death, verified by His resurrection from the dead Rom 4:25,

They have at least one more Justification to experience , that is in their consciousness, that verdict must be passed in their persons, this is done in the New Birth and the Spirit's witness, and hence by Faith we receive the witness of the Spirit in our consciousness Rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

That means Faith has been given for this witness to be carried out Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

By this they are enabled to receive the Joy and Peace of Believing Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

That's because the Power of the Spirit produces the Faith, in fact Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

God given Faith is instrumental in conveyance of the Spiritual Knowledge of Justification in our hears and minds , but never is it the cause of our Justification before God ! 9