Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Albion]

It detracts because it is believed that people Christ died for, remain lost in their sins.

Well, duh, they don't remain lost in their sins if they are saved through Faith. That's why the "detracts" claim is silly,

Your position has been presented in a somewhat unclear way IMHO, but it appears to me that you are convinced that people--believers in this case--must save themselves by their adherence to the letter of the OT Law. Or by some other actions.

 

[Messy]

nm

 

[prism]

I saw that John Wesley came up with the same text. I already thought once saved always saved and calvinism made no sense, because of these texts.

John Wesley on Calvinism, Once Saved Always Saved, and Conditional Security

“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thor…

biblicaltruthresources.wordpress.com

John Wesley on Calvinism, Once Saved Always Saved, and Conditional Security

“People who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!”

Philippians 1:6 NKJV
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

I guess the Apostle Paul was more deceived than John Wesley.

 

[Messy]

Philippians 1:6 NKJV
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Yeah that's also true, but he said that to the Philippians who had fruit. Imagine saying it to a backslider who lives in blatant sin. One guy said: Paul with the shipwreck, an angel said they all would be saved and then he said: don't leave or you die. It's both true. Because he warned em that they could die, they got saved.

 

[prism]

Yeah that's also true, but he said that to the Philippians who had fruit. Imagine saying it to a backslider who lives in blatant sin. One guy said: Paul with the shipwreck, an angel said they all would be saved and then he said: don't leave or you die. It's both true. Because he warned em that they could die, they got saved.

Christians die (physically) and yet don't lose their salvation.

Do you actually believe God aborts His children? (Those whom He regenerates)

 

[Messy]

Christians die (physically) and yet don't lose their salvation.

Do you actually believe God aborts His children? (Those whom He regenerates)

It is hypothetically possible that they die. That's the ones who bear fruit. I don't think it really is, but still, Paul does warn even the Phillippians and even himself. I think it is indeed possible to die twice, but that's the ones who are twice dead and they're in the category of the sower who don't bear fruit.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

14 Do all things without [d]complaining and disputing,[e] 15 that you may become blameless and [f]harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

1 Corinthians 9:27​

27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

 

[Messy]

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[prism]

It is hypothetically possible that they die. That's the ones who bear fruit. I don't think it really is, but still, Paul does warn even the Phillippians and even himself. I think it is indeed possible to die twice, but that's the ones who are twice dead and they're in the category of the sower who don't bear fruit.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

14 Do all things without [d]complaining and disputing,[e] 15 that you may become blameless and [f]harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

1 Corinthians 9:27​

27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

I was hoping you would have also addressed this question of mine...
"Do you actually believe God aborts His children? (Those whom He regenerates)"


Only non believers are twice dead.
1. They are born spiritually dead separated from the life of God, hence, the necessity for the new birth.
2. In time they die a physical death.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, duh, they don't remain lost in their sins if they are saved through Faith. That's why the "detracts" claim is silly,

Your position has been presented in a somewhat unclear way IMHO, but it appears to me that you are convinced that people--believers in this case--must save themselves by their adherence to the letter of the OT Law. Or by some other actions.

They are not lost in their sins because they are saved by Christ. But if you teach people who He died for remain lost and unsaved, then that takes away from the saving efficacy of Christ.

Now if you dont believe Christ saves people by His death for them, thats unbelief !Duh

 

[Messy]

I was hoping you would have also addressed this question of mine...
"Do you actually believe God aborts His children? (Those whom He regenerates)"


Only non believers are twice dead.
1. They are born spiritually dead separated from the life of God, hence, the necessity for the new birth.
2. In time they die a physical death.

It's not abortion if someone leaves God. They do that themselves. The ones that fall back can't be brought to repentance again, because then they crucify Him twice. They partook of the Holy Spirit. That is only possible if you get reborn. So apparently that new born spirit that's born from God and can't sin can die? I don't know. I'll look it up.

Hebrews 6:4-5 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

They were to persevere in the faith because, according to He 3:14, only those who persevere show themselves to be partakers of Christ and truly saved.

This does not mean that perseverance in the faith
is a condition for salvation.

Rather,

perseverance in the faith is understood
as the mark of those who are saved.

Were any to fall away, they would show they had not been partakers of Christ, that is, that they never had been saved.

Yes they went away, so they were not from us. I would say a new born spirit can't die, cause what is born from God can't sin. But the seed can get up and then get choked by worries of life and money, which is maybe the die twice and crucify again. The plant does die in the parable of the sower.

 

[prism]

It's not abortion if someone leaves God.

What I meant is that God does not abort His own children whom He begets...

1 Peter 1:3 NKJV
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

[Albion]

They are not lost in their sins because they are saved by Christ. But if you teach people who He died for remain lost and unsaved, then that takes away from the saving efficacy of Christ.

Now if you dont believe Christ saves people by His death for them, thats unbelief !Duh

All of that is rather obvious and not particularly controversial, so what is your message to us?

It looks like you are intent upon converting us to some better way of thinking about the process of salvation; but Faith saves, thanks to what Christ did for us, and anyone who doesn't come to that Faith misses out and is stuck with his sins. What's the controversy, then?

 

[brightfame52]

All of that is rather obvious and not particularly controversial, so what is your message to us?

It looks like you are intent upon converting us to some better way of thinking about the process of salvation; but Faith saves, thanks to what Christ did for us, and anyone who doesn't come to that Faith misses out and is stuck with his sins. What's the controversy, then?

Simple, Christs death Justified the ungodly.

 

[Messy]

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[Messy]

What I meant is that God does not abort His own children whom He begets...

1 Peter 1:3 NKJV
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Yes but what about those who believe for a while? The plant does die in the parable of the sower, but aaah maybe now I get it. The plant is faith. Their faith died. They weren't even reborn yet then. A new spirit can't die, cause it's born from God and can't sin. Weird though that someone He never knew can partake of the Spirit. Maybe that text is about someone like Judas. He did partake. He was never saved, but did heal the sick with the others.

 

[brightfame52]

I didnt even see that post and since I saw it I had no clue what you meant either. I just need a text that says we rose w Christ 2000 years ago and now I think you may be right, cause Jesus simply rose from the dead. God will be all in all. I don't live anymore. Christ lives in me and He rose 2000 years ago. The new heart we got is just Him living in us.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Ephesians 4:24​

24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

I have given plenty of text and explanation and its been either ignored or flat out rejected, bottom line Christs Death Justified them He died for, now you either believe it or you dont, simple as that.

 

[Messy]

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[Albion]

Simple, Christs death Justified the ungodly.

Meaning what, exactly?

I think we all understand and believe that Christ made something possible and that some people who wouldn't otherwise have been eligible have been saved as a result. That's not really under scrutiny here, but exactly 'how' and for 'whom' are.

 

[brightfame52]

Meaning what, exactly?

I think we all understand and believe that Christ made something possible and that some people who wouldn't otherwise have been eligible have been saved as a result. That's not really under scrutiny here, but exactly 'how' and for 'whom' are.

Meaning His death Justified the ungodly sinners He died for. Made them Righteous !

 

[brightfame52]

albion

I think we all understand and believe that Christ made something possible

This is error, scripture says nothing about Christ made something possible, especially in the matter of Justification, His Death Justified them He died for, not made it possible, away with such nonsense !

Isa 53:10-11

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.