Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[Lucian Hodoboc]

I do not find killing to be wrong when justified. Killing animals for food is certainly not wrong.

How is it justified if you have all the food you need to get all the nutrients you need, at cheap prices, at the nearest store? I think you missed the part of my post where I mentioned that all supermarkets would be full of the widest diversity of edible fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds imaginable. You wouldn't be starving. You wouldn't be forced to eat a very strict diet. There are literally thousands of vegan recipes available on numerous sites, blogs, cook books, online videos etc.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The problem with your initial statement is that if our conscience trumps Scripture then we basically get to do whatever we want as long as we "have peace" about it.

You keep omitting the part about having prayed to God about it, with honesty in your spirit.

Also, this debate is pretty pointless. Your views has been so powerfully influenced by the ways of this world that you seem unable to understand that God communicates with people through more than just a compiled collection of writings of a bunch of people from the past. "Sola Scriptura" is self-defeating because there's no mention of it in the Scripture whose authority you assume to be above anything else.

Those who seek God's Will will find it. Try it out for yourself. Pray with honesty to Him about whether He wants animals to be killed for us to eat their flesh.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

You can excuse anything with a verse like that. He also said "Come and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18). He knows His creation better than anyone. He knows that trust can't be obtained in a dictatorial system.

Think of the context of Isaiah 55:8:9. Who is God addressing? He is addressing the disobedient Israelites who were living in exile and had stopped seeking God, while being influenced by the ways of the pagans. Their thoughts and ways had stopped being aligned with God's thoughts and ways.

Once a person returns to God, his/her thoughts and ways begin to be aligned again with God's. Jesus prayed that the disciples would be one, just like He and the Father are one. We can safely assume that He did not want the disciples to be transformed into a being with 12 persons inside of it.

He was referring to union in will. To acquire God's will within them and to do it.

 

[Josiah]

this debate is pretty pointless.

Yes, it is.

Our friend here suggests that Scripture matters and such is both true and normative. The claim is that God never commanded anyone to kill animals but has been show that Scripture specifically, verbatim states that God did EXACTLY commanded that - but he just doesn't care. Either God lied about this or lambs are actually rocks and God is commanding the Hebrews to kill a rock, not an animal. And he insists that Jesus never ate flesh but has been show that Scripture specifically, verbatim states that He did - but he just doesn't care.

It is POINTLESS to even try to discuss this with him. Truth doesn't matter. Scripture doesn't matter. He has his baseless opinion and he just flat-out denies the literal, verbatim words of Scripture. There's nothing that can be said to him because he just doesn't care about Scripture or truth (or discussion).





.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

You can excuse anything with a verse like that. He also said "Come and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18). He knows His creation better than anyone. He knows that trust can't be obtained in a dictatorial system.

Think of the context of Isaiah 55:8:9. Who is God addressing? He is addressing the disobedient Israelites who were living in exile and had stopped seeking God, while being influenced by the ways of the pagans. Their thoughts and ways had stopped being aligned with God's thoughts and ways.

Once a person returns to God, his/her thoughts and ways begin to be aligned again with God's. Jesus prayed that the disciples would be one, just like He and the Father are one. We can safely assume that He did not want the disciples to be transformed into a being with 12 persons inside of it.

He was referring to union in will. To acquire God's will within them and to do it.

While it is true that the context of Isaiah 55:8 is limited, the principal that God's ways are infinitely beyond ours is true regardless of that context. We can only know the mind of God in a limited sense:

1 Corinthians 2: 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

"Come and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18) is an example of that limited sense where our minds can meet God's on a specific topic to the extent we need to know.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

How is it justified if you have all the food you need to get all the nutrients you need, at cheap prices, at the nearest store? I think you missed the part of my post where I mentioned that all supermarkets would be full of the widest diversity of edible fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds imaginable. You wouldn't be starving. You wouldn't be forced to eat a very strict diet. There are literally thousands of vegan recipes available on numerous sites, blogs, cook books, online videos etc.

How is anything beyond bare sustenance living justified? We should all take the bus instead of having a second car, or buy as small of a house as necessary to simply put a roof over our heads? I find your reasoning absurd. We should not eat meat because other food is available? It so happens that many like meat and meat is actually a very healthful eating choice.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

How is anything beyond bare sustenance living justified? We should all take the bus instead of having a second car, or buy as small of a house as necessary to simply put a roof over our heads? I find your reasoning absurd. We should not eat meat because other food is available? It so happens that many like meat and meat is actually a very healthful eating choice.

Are you honestly listening to yourself? Meat is procured through the intense suffering and death of animals, most of the time the process is accompanied by terrible conditions in factories where the animals are either kept in tiny cages in which they almost suffocate to death or hung upside down from their legs.

And you're talking about how your reasoning that killing animals is not wrong and is justified because "people like meat"?!

As for meat being a healthful eating choice, nutrition science debunked that. Yes, it can have some benefits in small amounts. However, the benefits of the whole food plant-based diet are a lot more numerous and have been proven by thousands of scientific studies.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Yes, it is.

Our friend here suggests that Scripture matters and such is both true and normative. The claim is that God never commanded anyone to kill animals but has been show that Scripture specifically, verbatim states that God did EXACTLY commanded that - but he just doesn't care. Either God lied about this or lambs are actually rocks and God is commanding the Hebrews to kill a rock, not an animal. And he insists that Jesus never ate flesh but has been show that Scripture specifically, verbatim states that He did - but she just doesn't care. Scripture is lying.

It's POINTLESS to even try to discuss anything with him. Truth doesn't matter. Scripture doesn't matter. He has his baseless opinion and he just flat-out denies the literal words of Scripture. There's nothing that can be said to him because he just doesn't care about Scripture or truth (or discussion).



.

Well, excuse us for not being able to bring ourselves to believe in an omnibenevolent god who creates beings that possess the ability to experience great amounts of pain when they are killed and then demands that these beings inflict such pain on one another with no other reason than to consume each other's bodies. Such a god would be an oxymoron.

God is not like that.

 

[Albion]

Well, excuse us for not being able to bring ourselves to believe in an omnibenevolent god who creates beings that possess the ability to experience great amounts of pain when they are killed and then demands that these beings inflict such pain on one another with no other reason than to consume each other's bodies. Such a god would be an oxymoron.

God is not like that.

What religion are you identifying with now?

 

[Josiah]

Well, excuse us for not being able to bring ourselves to believe in an omnibenevolent god who creates beings that possess the ability to experience great amounts of pain when they are killed and then demands that these beings inflict such pain on one another with no other reason than to consume each other's bodies. Such a god would be an oxymoron.

The claim is that God never commanded anyone to kill an animal. Exodus 12:6 was quoted. Verbatim. It specifically states that God did. So this claim is false. Our friend seems to hold that either God is lying here in Scripture and God never said this or that lambs are not animals (perhaps they are rocks or a brand of automobiles and that's what God is commanding the Hebrews to kill).


The claim is that Jesus never ate flesh (a claim quite unrelated to the issue here). Luke 12:42-43 was quoted. Verbatim. It specifically states that Jesus ate flesh. Our friend simply holds that either God is lying here (that's NOT what Jesus did) or that fish isn't an animal, isn't flesh but rather is a rock or airplane.


Our friend has offered NOTHING that states, "thou canst not kill any animal" or "Thou canst not eat meat." YET suggests that what Scripture says is normative - except when it clearly, obviously, undeniably, verbatim, specifically states the EXACT OPPOSITE and so must be ignored.


See post 144.




.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Are you honestly listening to yourself? Meat is procured through the intense suffering and death of animals, most of the time the process is accompanied by terrible conditions in factories where the animals are either kept in tiny cages in which they almost suffocate to death or hung upside down from their legs.

And you're talking about how your reasoning that killing animals is not wrong and is justified because "people like meat"?!

As for meat being a healthful eating choice, nutrition science debunked that. Yes, it can have some benefits in small amounts. However, the benefits of the whole food plant-based diet are a lot more numerous and have been proven by thousands of scientific studies.

I in no way condone mistreatment of animals. There are humane ways to kill an animal for food. And there are humane ways to raise them. I mostly buy organic free-range grass-fed meat which is healthful. The industry processed meat that you described is not good. The only non-organic meat I have bought is bison which is not raced in concentrated feed operations.

Regular beef already contains certain nutrients that are beneficial to you. However, grass fed beef goes above and beyond in terms of nutrition, possessing these important components:

• Lower fat levels4
• Higher levels of beta-carotene5
• Higher amounts of minerals like calcium, magnesium and potassium, alongside other minerals like iron, zinc, selenium and phosphorus6
• Higher portions of total omega-3 fatty acids
• Higher amounts of conjugated linoleic acid (CLA or cis-9 trans-11),7 a potential cancer fighter8
• Higher amounts of vaccenic acid that can be transformed into CLA9
• A healthier ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fatty acids10

Grass Fed Beef Health Benefits

Learn what grass fed beef is, how it stacks up against typical beef and where you can find the best sources of high-quality meats in your area.

foodfacts.mercola.com

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

There is no humane way to kill. It's a contradiction. To be human means to be in the image of God and God is life.

Linking an article that is based on references from sites belonging to the meat industry is not a credible source. Try Dr Dean Ornish's studies, Dr Michael Greger's NutritionFacts.org, Dr T. Collin Campbell's studies etc.

 

[DanielL]

Not in any words.

It does, it is written He changes not, nor His Word, nor His Law, and since He gave herbs and fruits for food, they are food forever, nothing can be put to it, because the LORD changes not, nor His Word, nor His Law. All you are doing is closing your ears, and making your heart as stone, lest you should hear with your ears, understand with your heart and be healed. Ignoring the verses won't make them go away..

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

-You are also ignoring the Breath of Life, and the Will of God. Animals have the Breath of Life, killing them is against the Will of God, who gave them the Breath. It is also a sin against God, because it is His Breath you are killing..

Psalm 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

Hosea 8:11 Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.

12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.

13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the Lord accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

-If you want to keep your imperfect idol, that is your choice, but don't say it isn't written, when it is.

Jesus himself encouraged the killing of animals

Jesus cannot encorage sin, nor abominations, nor anything that is against the Will of His Father.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

 

[DanielL]

the suffering of the poor carrot as it is ripped out of the ground

The carrot doesn't have the Breath of Life in it, animals do. Carrots don't bleed, animals do. Carrots are food, animals are not.

Killing an ox is like killing a man, both are murder, shedding innocent blood of animals is also an abomination, and those who work against the Will of the Father, by taking away that which He had given, go to hell.

God not wanting sacrifices aren't about the death of the animal

I understand why you would feel the need to twist Scripture and add to the Word, but that is just your own understanding, and it is not written. What is written, however, is that He desires not sacrifice. And there are no exceptions, only those you add unto it.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

kill the Passover lamb

This shows whom you serve, because the True Perfect God cannot command sin, nor abominations, nor things that are against His Will.
-That is why He didn't:

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

 

[DanielL]

To wantonly kill an animal for some kind of sick pleasure would definitely be a sin.

But isn't that what you do? -You kill animals to satisfy your lust for flesh, and to please yourself, because you aren't contented with the food Father gave you, so you lust for more, and kill the animals just to satisfy yourself and your lusts. And before you say murder and abomination are "necessary" for survival check Daniel 1. Not only it is not necessary but it is harmful for your health, eating flesh reduces your lifespan..

If I had to hunt to get it, so be it

Until the day, where the hunters will be hunted, the killers will be killed, and the eaters will be eaten. This is the patience and faith of the saints..

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Is this thread a real discussion or just people playing around with "yes it is! No it's not!" to fill in time?

Do you have a real question? Have you even read the original post? Why can't you address any of the arguments?

Perhaps we all ignore the thread and then maybe it will go away.

I understand this is all you can do, but ignoring it won't make it go away. And even if sorcerers make it magically disappear, the Law is still true, the Word endureth forever. And if they cut my tongue remember that thou hast been warned, God is Perfect and He changes not..

 

[DanielL]

Jesus never ate flesh but has been show that Scripture specifically, verbatim states that He did - but he just doesn't care.

Your problem is that you start with one verse, and deduce from the verse. While I start with the True Rock, a sure Foundation, and build on top of Him, the cornerstone, Jesus Christ.

I mean, I start with His Perfect Nature. Which means He didn't change the Law, herbs and fruits are still food, and they always will be, because the LORD is Perfect. And starting with Jesus beeing Holy, that means He didn't eat flesh, because flesh is not food. But you had to start with God in the centre in order to know this..

The claim is that God never commanded anyone to kill an animal. Exodus 12:6 was quoted. Verbatim. It specifically states that God did. So this claim is false.

You claim Jeremiah 7:22 is "false"? -See how you reject verses too? The difference is you reject the verses that Honor Him as Perfect, while I reject the verses that dishonor Him..

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

-It all comes down to Whom will ye serve. Which voice do you hearken unto, the voice of the LORD or the voice of strangers? You can't serve two masters..

Our friend has offered NOTHING that states, "thou canst not kill any animal" or "Thou canst not eat meat."

-Ignoring them won't make it go away.. Since animals have the Breath of Life, killing them is just like killing a man, it is murder, a sin against God, because it is His Breath you are killing..

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

Hosea 8:13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the Lord accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

Isaiah 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.

14 And it was revealed in mine ears by the Lord of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord God of hosts.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

-And animals also have innocent blood..

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

 

[Albion]

It does

Let's recap.

I said this: "God never said that killing a catfish or mosquito is '"murder' "

...and that's true. He didn't. You claimed that he had, but you can't produce any evidence to back up your claim.

What's more, Jesus, who is God, encouraged catching,. killing, and eating animals. He helped his followers to do it, in fact.

That's from the word of God, and you ignore it and other such examples from the Bible in order to keep asserting your own religious theories to us.

But a number of other posters pointed out the same thing, so you've lost that debate. I'd suggest starting in with a new topic if your interest is in poking holes in the Christian religion or the Bible itself.

Cheers.

 

[DanielL]

"God never said that killing a catfish or mosquito is '"murder' "

Again the muslim fallacy? Not in those exact words. If you are going to only accept exact words you would have to deny the Deity of Jesus, because He never said "I am God, worship me" in those exact words.

You claimed that he had, but you can't produce any evidence to back up your claim.

I said that He did, in other words, in His Words. Here they are:

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

-Also, because animals have the Breath of Life, it is against the Will of God to take away that which God had given.

That's from the word of God, and you ignore it

You ignore the verses above, so you can't tell others not to ignore. And I didn't even ignored it, I told you and others that Jesus cannot sin and God cannot change. Until you understand these two you won't progress.
What you are doing is you take a verse and build on top of it. While I build on top of the True Rock, a sure foundation. I start with God is Perfect and cannot change, which means He didn't change His Word nor His Law regarding food, if God said herbs and fruits shall be food, that means they shall be food forever, nothing can be put to it, nothing can be added unto His Word.
And because animals were not given for food, and they never will be, that means Jesus cannot eat animals, because He is Holy, and does the Will of the Father, which is herbs and fruits. But you had to start with God in the centre in order to know this.
And remember Scripture cannot dishonor Him, anything that does is therefore, not Scripture..

Jeremiah 7:4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord, are these.

5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;

6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

 

[Albion]

Again the muslim fallacy? Not in those exact words.

This has nothing to do with Muslims.

 

[Bluezone777]

20 Then Noah built an altar to honor the Lord. Noah took some of all the clean birds and some of all the clean animals and burned them on the altar as a gift to God.


21 The Lord smelled these sacrifices, and it pleased him. The Lord said to himself, “I will never again curse the earth as a way to punish people. People are evil from the time they are young, but I will never again destroy every living thing on the earth as I did this time.

Genesis 8:20-21

3 In the past, I gave you the green plants to eat. Now every animal will also be food for you. I give you everything on earth—it is yours.

Genesis 9:3

I don't think I need to say anything more here.