Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

[tango]

His interpretation is based on his conscience. Unless it is severely altered by evil, the conscience of each human finds killing to be wrong, and they would not do it if they were not pressured by external factors, such as hunger, peer pressure, social conditioning etc.

In a world in which meat would cease to be sold anywhere (it would be completely banned from the market), but hunting and access to weapons and bullets was legal, and the supermarkets were always full of every type of fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds that are good for humans at cheap prices, how many people would choose to buy guns and go hunt in the forests?

Having a personal conviction to do (or not do) something specific is perfectly OK. If you feel, for whatever reason, that you do not wish to kill an animal you have every right to refrain from killing animals.

The problem is that the OP here is telling people that it is unlawful to kill animals - his claim is that this is a universal requirement rather than a personal conviction. If he chooses not to kill animals that is a decision for him but in his endless quest to claim that it is unlawful he is saying nobody else should kill animals either. If there were Scriptural support for such a stance that would be one thing but there quite clearly is no support, as many of us have pointed out. And yet he persists in presenting his one-man crusade as if he had anything useful to back it up.

If, in the course of a general discussion, he had merely posted something along the lines of "I personally don't eat meat because I feel convicted against the killing of animals" it would have been an opinion point and I suspect very little would have come of it.

 

[Albion]

I don't believe in biblical infallibility and inerrancy because it was collected and put together by humans and there was no supernatural confirmation (that I know of) of its accuracy.

From what source do you pick up your own standards of right and wrong, then?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Having a personal conviction to do (or not do) something specific is perfectly OK. If you feel, for whatever reason, that you do not wish to kill an animal you have every right to refrain from killing animals.

The problem is that the OP here is telling people that it is unlawful to kill animals - his claim is that this is a universal requirement rather than a personal conviction. If he chooses not to kill animals that is a decision for him but in his endless quest to claim that it is unlawful he is saying nobody else should kill animals either. If there were Scriptural support for such a stance that would be one thing but there quite clearly is no support, as many of us have pointed out. And yet he persists in presenting his one-man crusade as if he had anything useful to back it up.

If, in the course of a general discussion, he had merely posted something along the lines of "I personally don't eat meat because I feel convicted against the killing of animals" it would have been an opinion point and I suspect very little would have come of it.

Some people value their conscience more than Scripture if the former brings them interior peace during prayer, and I tend to agree with them.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

From what source do you pick up your own standards of right and wrong, then?

What my conscience tells me when I read the Bible and ask Jesus in prayer.

 

[tango]

Some people value their conscience more than Scripture if the former brings them interior peace during prayer, and I tend to agree with them.

So if my conscience says it's OK to kill the person who insulted my wife what should I do? It brings me peace to picture this particular person lying lifeless in a coffin. Should I go ahead and kill them?

I know Scripture has a few irritating things that seem to say it's a bad idea but you seem to be saying I should follow my conscience, right?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

So if my conscience says it's OK to kill the person who insulted my wife what should I do? It brings me peace to picture this particular person lying lifeless in a coffin. Should I go ahead and kill them?

I said during prayer. Honest prayer. Genuine prayer. Tell God about the issue, ask Him to show you what He wants you to do. Really mean it.

I doubt such a prayer would lead you to have peace at the thought of sinning. Careful not to mistake peace for other feelings, such as satisfaction or something like that. They are very different things. One could feel satisfied with having sought vengeance, but still lack inner peace about it.

 

[tango]

I said during prayer. Honest prayer. Genuine prayer. Tell God about the issue, ask Him to show you what He wants you to do. Really mean it.

I doubt such a prayer would lead you to have peace at the thought of sinning. Careful not to mistake peace for other feelings, such as satisfaction or something like that. They are very different things. One could feel satisfied with having sought vengeance, but still lack inner peace about it.

But what if I do have inner peace? Unless I'm missing something you seem to be saying your thoughts are superior to my conscience here. What even defines "sinning" if, as you say, our conscience can trump Scripture?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

But what if I do have inner peace?

It is very unlikely, but if it does happen, then that would indicate that your conscience is seared. My advice for you in such a situation would be to should spend more time in prayer, and obey the 10 commandments and the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Albion]

What my conscience tells me when I read the Bible and ask Jesus in prayer.

So, there's nothing special about the Bible, huh? And what's so special about Jesus? There have been plenty of teachers saying to be kind and honest.

 

[DanielL]

Sounds like you pick and choose which is a pretty poor way to receive scripture.

Yes, Choose whom will ye serve. It's not a poor way, it's the Truth. Every one must choose whom will they serve. You can't serve both, tho.

OK, so, you are saying that any verse that goes against your interpretation is "stone"?

No, I'm saying verses that go against the Perfect Immutable Nature of the Holy God are stone. Because Gold cannot deny Him in any way, Scripture can only honor Him in the highest. Anything that dishonors Him is stone.

Merely tossing out scripture because it does not fit our belief does not work

Yes, it does. It might not work for you, because you can't serve both masters, you must forsake your idol first, and come to the True Perfect and Holy God. Because it works for me just fine, and there is no denying the Perfect God. The Witness of God is greater.

So, what does your Bible Table of Contents look like?

The Bible Table Contents looks like Pure Gold, and no stone. And all I did was separate the Gold from the stone, the Gold is on the table, the stone is outside. Separate the wheat from the chaff, the wheat to His barn, but the chaff is to be burned.

irrelevant verse.

See, I'm not the only one denying verses from the bible, the difference is I deny the verses that dishonor Him, while this guy denies the verses that do honor Him.

His claim was that killing an animal for food or some other reason is the same as murdering a human, which we all would agree is wrong to do.

My claim? Wasn't God that gave the commandments, and spoke by the mouth of Isaiah?

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

-And you still have to address the Breath of Life, which is present in all creatures, which makes it a sin against God because it is His Breath you kill. It is also against His Will, since what He makes alive, you do kill, and what He gives, you do take away.

 

[Albion]

My claim? Wasn't God that gave the commandments, and spoke by the mouth of Isaiah?

Yes, it was your claim. God never said that killing a catfish, a coral snake, or a mosquito is "murder." That was just your own personal guidance system at work, whatever it might be.

 

[DanielL]

God neve said that killing a catfish or mosquito is "murder."

Not in those "exact words", if you are going to follow this fallacy, you will have to deny the Deity of Jesus, because He also never said "I am God, worship me" in those "exact words". This is a muslim fallacy, a common one.
Now, if you can't add two and two together the flaw is on your part. Maybe you just don't want to, and that is your choice, of whom will ye serve..

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

 

[Albion]

Not in those "exact words"...

Not in any words. And as has already been noted, Jesus himself encouraged the killing of animals (under certain circumstances, of course).

To my mind, that's God giving us his guidance, but to say that I also have to think that the Bible is divine revelation as it says it is, Jesus is God in the flesh with all the authority of the Almighty, and that the only written record of his teachings is believable.

 

[tango]

It is very unlikely, but if it does happen, then that would indicate that your conscience is seared. My advice for you in such a situation would be to should spend more time in prayer, and obey the 10 commandments and the teachings of Jesus.

Why would you say my conscience is seared? You can't say that my subjective conscience trumps objective Scripture but then make external value judgments over my conscience.

The problem with your initial statement is that if our conscience trumps Scripture then we basically get to do whatever we want as long as we "have peace" about it. If Scripture doesn't trump my conscience how does your opinion of whether my conscience is seared count for anything, unless your opinion trumps both Scripture and my conscience?

 

[tango]

Not in those "exact words", if you are going to follow this fallacy, you will have to deny the Deity of Jesus, because He also never said "I am God, worship me" in those "exact words". This is a muslim fallacy, a common one.
Now, if you can't add two and two together the flaw is on your part. Maybe you just don't want to, and that is your choice, of whom will ye serve..

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man [...]

If you just want to endlessly repeat "thou shalt not kill" as if killing anything is forbidden why stop at animals? Think of the suffering of the poor carrot as it is ripped out of the ground, away from the only environment it has ever known, because some arrogant creature who considers itself higher has decided to slice it into pieces and then throw it into boiling water.

You do know a lot of the verses about God not wanting sacrifices aren't about the death of the animal but rather about not wanting people to live as if he wasn't there but making the odd sacrifice as if that made everything OK?

But hey, continue endlessly repeating the same tired lines as if "choose who you will serve" supports your argument. It supports the opposing argument just as well, in case you didn't notice that.



Just a thought, this has probably been mentioned already but who knows...

Gen 8:20-21a NKJV Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. (21) And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma.

It's sad that God apparently didn't know that killing those animals didn't create a "soothing aroma" because of the brazen sin involved. You know, he'd just got done saving Noah and his family and Noah immediately went and performed such an abomination. Maybe God was sleeping on the job and didn't realise what the smell really was?

Gen 22:10-13 NKJV And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. (11) But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am." (12) And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (13) Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son.

It's a shame the angel was such a putz and didn't think, since it was there talking to him anyway, to remind Abraham not to kill the ram. I guess the kind of bumbling halfwit god (small g intentional) who apparently made such basic errors when dictating his instructions would have created a bumbling halfwit angel who didn't think to warn people not to do something so grievously sinful.

Exo 12:21-23 NKJV Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Pick out and take lambs for yourselves according to your families, and kill the Passover lamb. (22) And you shall take a bunch of hyssop, dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin. And none of you shall go out of the door of his house until morning. (23) For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you.

It's a good job God remembered to pass over the houses of those who so brazenly ignored his instructions. I wonder why he didn't smite Moses for telling the Israelites to do such a heinous thing.

Hmmm... you'd be forgiven for thinking that killing animals isn't a universal wrong or something.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

My conscience strongly tells me that @DanielL is right. I've tried fighting it, but it feels like fighting against God Himself. It doesn't make sense for God to tell His creations to destroy among themselves.

It does not have to make sense to you or any of us.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Also, just to clear up any misunderstanding. The phrase "tell His creations to destroy among themselves" could be interpreted as a free-for-all, but that is not the case. God has given specific rules on justified killing. To wantonly kill an animal for some kind of sick pleasure would definitely be a sin. For the state to kill a man who has committed murder or high treason is perfectly acceptable. I believe the Old Testament justify personal defense killings, even killing of a thief in certain circumstances (Exodus 22:2 for example).

 

[Fritz Kobus]

I don't believe in biblical infallibility and inerrancy because it was collected and put together by humans and there was no supernatural confirmation (that I know of) of its accuracy. The Holy Spirit did not visibly and audibly descend over the council that created the Biblical canon while they were doing so.

Then you haven't a leg to stand on from a moral perspective. You really cannot even say that a person going against their conscience is wrong because who says it is wrong?

 

[Fritz Kobus]

His interpretation is based on his conscience. Unless it is severely altered by evil, the conscience of each human finds killing to be wrong, and they would not do it if they were not pressured by external factors, such as hunger, peer pressure, social conditioning etc.

In a world in which meat would cease to be sold anywhere (it would be completely banned from the market), but hunting and access to weapons and bullets was legal, and the supermarkets were always full of every type of fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds that are good for humans at cheap prices, how many people would choose to buy guns and go hunt in the forests?

I for one would seek meat. If I had to hunt to get it, so be it. Many would buy meat on the black market.

I do not find killing to be wrong when justified. Killing animals for food is certainly not wrong. Personally, I find killing distasteful and would rather not do it myself, and I think that is a carryover from how we were meant to be before the fall when there was no death.

Well, at least

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is this thread a real discussion or just people playing around with "yes it is! No it's not!" to fill in time?

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Is this thread a real discussion or just people playing around with "yes it is! No it's not!" to fill in time?

Perhaps we all ignore the thread and then maybe it will go away.