Purgatory

[Odë:hgöd]

.
One of the Church's earliest official proclamations regarding a purgatory was Pope
Leo X's Bull of Exsurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with some other
things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin
makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness.

In other words: according to Leo X, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin;
consequently they won't commit any new sins while undergoing discipline and
purification.

It's essential that souls in a purgatory to be incapable of sinning, because if they
weren't, then Rome’s promise in CCC 1030 of an assured eternal salvation for
purgatorians would be a tenuous guarantee indeed since each new sin committed
while interred there would add time to the penitent’s original sentence; with the
very real possibility of potentially snow-balling to the point where they would never
be released.

If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exsurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in
purgatory then I would have to conclude that it's a very peaceful place seeing as
how everyone in residence there would be complying with the entire Sermon On
The Mount including all the Beatitudes.

Most Catholics regard purgatory as a safety net whence they will be taken in the
event they fail to sufficiently measure up to God's standards. However, purgatory is
not all that easy to attain. According to CCC 1035, Catholics are always just inches
from the worst.

Should it happen that they leave this life with just one un-absolved mortal sin on
the books, just one, they go directly to Hell; no stop-over in a half-way house. No,
their trip is a direct flight. Even if they've been a faithful Catholic for 49 years, they
will miss the boat just as if they had been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist. All
their years as a faithful Catholic will be stricken from the record and count for
naught.
_

 

[Albion]

Scripture distinguishes between sin that is mortal that which is not.

Oh yes, but that doesn't have anything in particular to do with the theory of how the RCC's Purgatory is said to work. According to the church's teachings, unforgiven venial sins are punished in Purgatory while unforgiven mortal sins are of course punished in Hell, but also, all sins that have already been confessed and forgiven are punished in Purgatory as well...because you committed them in the first place.

This hair-splitting mythology is not based upon the Bible. No, it's the product of the age of scholasticism and "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" mind games, all joined to the dark, violent view of a vengeful God that was in vogue during the days when Medieval civilization was unravelling. Purgatory is clearly a product of that mindset.

The rest of your complaint needs another thread

If you think that would be best. Do start a new thread and attempt to show that Purgatory exists. Actually exists, and not just as a theory, or that something like a Purgatory would make sense, etc.

 

[Stephen]

.
One of the Church's earliest official proclamations regarding a purgatory was Pope
Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with some other
things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin
makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness.

In other words: according to Leo X, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin;
consequently they won't commit any new sins while undergoing discipline and
purification.

It's essential that souls in a purgatory to be incapable of sinning, because if they
weren't, then Rome’s promise in CCC 1030 of an assured eternal salvation for
purgatorians would be a tenuous guarantee indeed since each new sin committed
while interred there would add time to the penitent’s original sentence; with the
very real possibility of potentially snow-balling to the point where they would never
be released.

If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in
purgatory then I would have to conclude that it's a very peaceful place seeing as
how everyone in residence there would be complying with the entire Sermon On
The Mount including all the Beatitudes.

Most Catholics regard purgatory as a safety net whence they will be taken in the
event they fail to sufficiently measure up to God's standards. However, purgatory is
not all that easy to attain. According to CCC 1035, Catholics are always just inches
from the worst.

Should it happen that they leave this life with just one un-absolved mortal sin on
the books, just one, they go directly to Hell; no stop-over in a half-way house. No,
their trip is a direct flight. Even if they've been a faithful Catholic for 49 years, they
will miss the boat just as if they had been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist. All
their years as a faithful Catholic will be stricken from the record and count for
naught.
_

And do you have any evidence for all your claims?
Or are we supposed to take our word for it.?

 

[Stephen]

Oh yes, but that doesn't have anything in particular to do with the theory of how the RCC's Purgatory is said to work. According to the church's teachings, unforgiven venial sins are punished in Purgatory while unforgiven mortal sins are of course punished in Hell, but also, all sins that have already been confessed and forgiven are punished in Purgatory as well...because you committed them in the first place.

This hair-splitting mythology is not based upon the Bible. No, it's the product of the age of scholasticism and "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" mind games, all joined to the dark, violent view of a vengeful God that was in vogue during the days when Medieval civilization was unravelling. Purgatory is clearly a product of that mindset.


If you think that would be best. Do start a new thread and attempt to show that Purgatory exists. Actually exists, and not just as a theory, or that something like a Purgatory would make sense, etc.

Well if you are going to ignore all I have posted I will leave you in denial of scripture.,
Have a nice day.

 

[Albion]

Well if you are going to ignore all I have posted I will leave you in denial of scripture.,
Have a nice day.

Yeah, right. All sorts of references to Scripture except for any that tell us that "Purgatory" exists.

You have a nice day, too.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.

And do you have any evidence for all your claims?

Yes.

Or are we supposed to take our word for it.?

Caveat Lector.
_

 

[NathanH83]

Purging Tory

 

[Stephen]

.


Yes.

And are you going to share that evidence with us?
Or again, do we just have to take your word for it?

 

[Bluezone777]

I personally think the statement made in Hebrews 9:27 along with the story of the rich man and Lazarus from the gospels is proof enough for me that there is no purgatory. Just one life to live and then at death comes a singular and everlasting judgment. The process of both justification and sanctification are both a work of God not man so God does not need this purgatory to perform this work as this is all done by God while the believer is on Earth. Man has no role in this action which is what it seems those who believe in purgatory believe is the case.

 

[Stephen]

I personally think the statement made in Hebrews 9:27 along with the story of the rich man and Lazarus from the gospels is proof enough for me that there is no purgatory.

I can't see how Heb 9:27 or the story of the rich man and Lazarus are proof that there is no purgatory. Perhaps you could explain

The process of both justification and sanctification are both a work of God not man so God does not need this purgatory to perform this work as this is all done by God while the believer is on Earth.

What evidence do you have for that?

Try reading post #40

 

[NathanH83]

I personally think the statement made in Hebrews 9:27 along with the story of the rich man and Lazarus from the gospels is proof enough for me that there is no purgatory. Just one life to live and then at death comes a singular and everlasting judgment. The process of both justification and sanctification are both a work of God not man so God does not need this purgatory to perform this work as this is all done by God while the believer is on Earth. Man has no role in this action which is what it seems those who believe in purgatory believe is the case.

Didn’t Jesus preach the gospel to those in prisons in the lower parts of the Earth?

 

[Albion]

Didn’t Jesus preach the gospel to those in prisons in the lower parts of the Earth?

You are referring, I think, to where Jesus went after his death on the Cross and before the Resurrection. That is indeed recorded in the Bible, but it refers to what is called Abraham's Bosom or the Limbo of Our Fathers. The reference is to a place where those who died before Christ's saving work took place (Moses and Abraham, for example) but who would otherwise have been deemed righteous went to await the coming of the Messiah. After that event, they were freed to be in Heaven.

It has nothing to do with Purgatory other than that it's one more place in the afterlife besides Heaven and Hell.

 

[Stephen]

You are referring, I think, to where Jesus went after his death on the Cross and before the Resurrection. That is indeed recorded in the Bible, but it refers to what is called Abraham's Bosom or the Limbo of Our Fathers. The reference is to a place where those who died before Christ's saving work took place (Moses and Abraham, for example) but who would otherwise have been deemed righteous went to await the coming of the Messiah. After that event, they were freed to be in Heaven.

It has nothing to do with Purgatory other than that it's one more place in the afterlife besides Heaven and Hell.

I agree. The story of the rich man and Lazarus has nothing to do with purgatory. Nor, imo, has Heb 9:27.

But as I pointed out in post #40

In Hebrews 11 the writer describes the faith of many of those in the Old Testament, men and women, from Abel onwards. At the end he writes:
"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

These people were all dead, but they had not been made perfect. They had not received what was promised (heaven).
Then he writes:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1). These faithful people of the Old Testament are now witnessing our struggles. This can only be from heaven. But you have to be perfect to be in heaven. So those that were not perfect must have been made perfect

And he confirms this later in the chapter.
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)

These just men [in Abraham's bosom] were not perfect when they died but they are now. This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men can be made perfect after death.

God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.

Catholics call this process Purgatory.
“The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” (CCC 1031)

 

[Lanman87]

Stephen,

Your never responded to my post #55

I'll summarize and add some clarification

The concept purgatory is pagan in origins (specifically from Platonic thought) that was eventually adopted by Christian Theologians as they were influenced by platonic thought and the concept began to "gain traction" among the influential Theologians and eventually became the normative teaching of the church.

That we are continuously being forgiven by virtue of being "in Christ" and therefore there is no need of purgatory for Born Again children of God. Christ is sitting at the right hand of God interceding for "those who come to Him" Hebrews 7:25, John 2:1-2, Romans 8:34. This ongoing interceding of Christ on our behalf (those who are In Christ) negates the need for purgatory. Our sins are forgiven by our position of being "In Christ" just as our affections(loves) are changed by our position of being "In Christ".

That the concept of purgatory is not disciplinary because it isn't to correct future activity but instead is punishment to purge us from our past activity.

That the concept of purgatory goes against the Loving and Merciful Nature of God, who loves and cherishes His adopted children. No loving parent, who had the choice, would choose to punish their children for past actions when the punishment will not change their future actions. If you had a child on their deathbed and you found out they stole from the cookie jar three years ago and never "confessed it to you" would you give them a spanking?? No, because at that point the spanking would be cruel and meaningless. The concept of Purgatory makes God out to give cruel and meaningless punishment to his Children.

Those of us who are "in Christ" are already citizens of Heaven, even while still on earth. Philippians 3:20. We aren't citizens of purgatory.

 

[Stephen]

Stephen,

Your never responded to my post #55

I'll summarize and add some clarification

The concept purgatory is pagan in origins (specifically from Platonic thought) that was eventually adopted by Christian Theologians as they were influenced by platonic thought and the concept began to "gain traction" among the influential Theologians and eventually became the normative teaching of the church.

There may be similar concepts to purgatory in paganism but the Catholic understanding is firmly rooted in Judaism and scripture. The classic point on this as I’m sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead; "that they might be delivered from their sin", thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However it is evidence of Jewish belief of the time. tAnd here is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.

“According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.” (see this link http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm)

Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.

Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."

Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.

That we are continuously being forgiven by virtue of being "in Christ" and therefore there is no need of purgatory for Born Again children of God. Christ is sitting at the right hand of God interceding for "those who come to Him" Hebrews 7:25, John 2:1-2, Romans 8:34. This ongoing interceding of Christ on our behalf (those who are In Christ) negates the need for purgatory. Our sins are forgiven by our position of being "In Christ" just as our affections(loves) are changed by our position of being "In Christ".

Positional salvation is false as it disconnects salvation from the true condition of the heart. Thus one is deemed "saved" whilst remaining a "worker of iniquity." What you are suggesting is that sin has no consequences.

That the concept of purgatory is not disciplinary because it isn't to correct future activity but instead is punishment to purge us from our past activity.

That the concept of purgatory goes against the Loving and Merciful Nature of God, who loves and cherishes His adopted children. No loving parent, who had the choice, would choose to punish their children for past actions when the punishment will not change their future actions. If you had a child on their deathbed and you found out they stole from the cookie jar three years ago and never "confessed it to you" would you give them a spanking?? No, because at that point the spanking would be cruel and meaningless. The concept of Purgatory makes God out to give cruel and meaningless punishment to his Children.

But there are future actions. If we are not in a fit condition to enter heaven because we are unclean then we have to become clean.

As Paul says: “Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and slander be put away from you, with all malice” (Eph 4:31).
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1).

If we haven't completely done this in this on earth then we have to do it after death in order to achieve the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14)

Those of us who are "in Christ" are already citizens of Heaven, even while still on earth. Philippians 3:20. We aren't citizens of purgatory.

Citizens of Heaven but not in heaven.
Still citizens of Heaven while we are being purified.

 

[Lanman87]

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.

They Key thing you said was "Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion" Most of these practices came into being after the era of the Prophets and don't line up with Old Testament teachings. These Jewish practices/beliefs could be part of the doctrines of men and the "Jewish Fables" and commandments of men mentioned in Titus 1:14. The fact that Jewish mystics practiced something doesn't make it orthodox. If they believe or command something that wasn't in the Law or the prophets then the Jews are in error. And we can see from the Jewish history, they had a nasty habit of going after other Gods and practices. If purgatory was handed on from Jews then it was handed on from Jews who were in error. Remember, even in the 1st Century there was great debate among Jews as to what happens after death. Some believed in the Resurrection from the dead and others didn't. Saying that (some) Jews believe something doesn't mean that it is true.

We could debate whether 2 Maccabees is inspired scripture but even if it was there are issues with the Catholic interpretation.

First, it is descriptive not prescriptive. It doesn't comment on if what they were doing was orthodox or commanded. It simply points out what they did. No where in Scripture are we commanded to pray for the souls in purgatory. No where is scripture are souls in purgatory ever mentioned. Just because some Jews believed that that praying for their dead friends might help them doesn't mean what they was doing was orthodox.

Second, they prayed for people who committed idolatry, which as I understand it, the Catholic church considers to be a mortal sin. In other words, (according to Catholic doctrine) they were wasting their time. In which case, using them as an example to follow if foolhardy.

But there are future actions

What actions/decisions can a dead person make concerning their eternal destination? What future behavior is purgatory trying to correct?

Why do you think fire/suffering is required to remove sin? All Jesus had to do to forgive sins was say "Your sins are forgiven". Why doesn't Christ just speak forgiveness for all our sins instead of putting us through the fires of purgatory?

If we haven't completely done this in this on earth then we have to do it after death in order to achieve the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14)

But Christ is our righteousness which we receive by faith. We aren't holy because we don't sin, we are Holy because Christ makes us holy through His Sacrifice on our behalf. We seek personal holiness out of love and devotion to Christ, not in order to be achieve ultimate salvation and hopes of avoiding purgatory. If it is in order to be saved then eternal life isn't a free gift but is something we earn through our effort. If that is the case then what was the point of Christ coming for us? We could have tried to earn salvation by keeping the Mosaic Law. We would have failed but it is not really different that trying to earn merit by keeping the fast, festivals, and sacraments of Catholicism. Both turn the free gift of eternal life in Christ into wages to be earned. Which is exactly the kind of thing Paul was warning us about in Romans 3: 1-6

Positional salvation is false as it disconnects salvation from the true condition of the heart.

I believe it is the opposite. It ties our salvation to our heart that has been changed from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh, while giving love and grace to us in our struggles against the temptations of this world. It takes the burden of "performance" off the table and replaces it with a loving relationship with the Father through the Son empowered by the Spirit.

 

[Albion]

These people were all dead, but they had not been made perfect. They had not received what was promised (heaven).
Then he writes:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1). These faithful people of the Old Testament are now witnessing our struggles. This can only be from heaven. But you have to be perfect to be in heaven. So those that were not perfect must have been made perfect

The reference there is not to the souls in Abraham's Bosom. It's to those who were in Heaven, and they were/are there because of the merits of Christ Jesus.

In the Christian religion, it's the sacrifice of Christ that justifies, and is quite capable of justifying, those who turn to Him.

There is no need to make up any quickie spiritual carwashes in the afterlife in order to get the job done. And even if your speculation were correct, it wouldn't explain a dozen other cockeyed procedures that the church has claimed occur with "Purgatory." You, of course, won't discuss them.

 

[Andrew]

The video below is 10 minutes long (too long for many, so I apologize). I think it does a good job of laying out this issue.

MY experience - as a former Catholic and conversations with Catholic family and friends - this is a Dogma of the Roman Catholic Church that seems... well... ignored if not abandoned. I don't recall a single case of this even mentioned in my Catholic parish.... no sermons, no teachings. And I've been to several Catholic memorial services and (surprisingly) not one mention of this...ever. Indeed, I recall SPECIFIC mentions of the loved one "BEING in heaven."

Some in the East have a MUCH more vague and non-required view that is a bit similar, but Purgatory is a new and distinctive Dogma of just The Catholic Church, just that one denomination.. As I understand it, the "roots" of this do go back to the Early Church but it developed very uniquely in the West and did not gain dogma status until Florence and Trent (15th and 16th Century).

If the Pope declares that purgatory no longer exists would you still believe it does? If not then would you even be a Catholic?

 

[Josiah]

If the Pope declares that purgatory no longer exists would you still believe it does?

I don't think I ever believed it existed.

If not then would you even be a Catholic?

I no longer am. But a Catholic is one who docilicly submits to whatever the Church officially teaches. Technically, the Pope is not permitted to teach contrary to the Tradition of the Church (although he can "bump it up" in terms of status = as was the case with Purgatory), so if the Pope spoke ex-cathredra and denounced Purgatory, hum, "Houston, we have a problem" - the Pope can't do that. I don't recall at the moment what status Purgatory has... but I think it is "de fide" and so cannot be denied, even the Pope can't do it. As I think I commented earlier, what I've been told is the Catholic way of dealing with something of binding status that is no longer accepted is to 1) Redefine the words of the proclaimation so that it now "means" something very different (if "up" was wrong, just redefine the word "up" to mean "down") or 2) Just stop teaching it. IMO, perhaps we are witnessing #2 with "Purgatory"

As I noted, I'm "okay" with the Eastern OPINION (not binding, not doctrine) of a MIRACLE that God does in the "wink of an eye" at the moment of death as we are "carried to Abraham's bosom" that our bodies are made holy (no place, no time, no punishment) but that's not Purgatory and it's not dogma. But while I am "okay" with that OPINION, I don't share it - but it is a way to deal with some Scriptures.





.

 

[Andrew]

I don't think I ever believed it existed.





I no longer am. But a Catholic is one who docilicly submits to whatever the Church officially teaches. Technically, the Pope is not permitted to teach contrary to the Tradition of the Church (although he can "bump it up" in terms of status = as was the case with Purgatory), so if the Pope spoke ex-cathredra and denounced Purgatory, hum, "Houston, we have a problem" - the Pope can't do that. I don't recall at the moment what status Purgatory has... but I think it is "de fide" and so cannot be denied, even the Pope can't do it. As I think I commented earlier, what I've been told is the Catholic way of dealing with something of binding status that is no longer accepted is to 1) Redefine the words of the proclaimation so that it now "means" something very different (if "up" was wrong, just redefine the word "up" to mean "down") or 2) Just stop teaching it. IMO, perhaps we are witnessing #2 with "Purgatory"

As I noted, I'm "okay" with the Eastern OPINION (not binding, not doctrine) of a MIRACLE that God does in the "wink of an eye" at the moment of death as we are "carried to Abraham's bosom" that our bodies are made holy (no place, no time, no punishment) but that's not Purgatory and it's not dogma. But while I am "okay" with that OPINION, I don't share it - but it is a way to deal with some Scriptures.





.

My apologies, it was meant for Stephen not you