Purgatory

[Stephen]

I may be wrong but I think there is no silver in the new millennium , leaving the rabbinical commentaries either consisting of the present or eternity within that time frame.

You've lost me there. I don't understand your point.

 

[Cassia]

You've lost me there. I don't understand your point.

Where you read in Hebrews that we must be holy to see God I read that you must believe that He is a God who rewards. Pergatory is not something believable imo. When the bible readings applied reference losses not maintained from the down payment made on the inheritance given. We are meant to grow further not fall behind because of lack of boldness to approach the living God personally, and become one who turns away, removing oneself from position of privilege in family of God, thru belief, to return to law, hense the lack of lesser value symbols representative in the portrayal of Christ's millennial rule. Which leads me to believe that the end of the age of gentiles is closing but the best is yet to come for the redeemed kingdom of priests.

 

[Stephen]

Where you read in Hebrews that we must be holy to see God I read that you must believe that He is a God who rewards.

Well, yes he is a God who rewards but I don't see that it follows from our must being Holy to see God.
I don't see Hebrews mentioning rewards.

Pergatory is not something believable imo.

And what part of the points I have put forward so far do you disagree with?

When the bible readings applied reference losses not maintained from the down payment made on the inheritance given. We are meant to grow further not fall behind because of lack of boldness to approach the living God personally, and become one who turns away, removing oneself from position of privilege in family of God, thru belief, to return to law, hense the lack of lesser value symbols representative in the portrayal of Christ's millennial rule.

I haven't a clue what you mean by all that.

Which leads me to believe that the end of the age of gentiles is closing but the best is yet to come for the redeemed kingdom of priests.

what age of the gentiles and what redeemed kingdom of priests?

 

[Cassia]

Hebrews most assuredly mentions rewards and I'm not going over any verses you quoted but refer them to be taken in the context of rewards and loss thereof. I don't believe they will be redeemed in any case. That brings one to osas and the coat of many colors one will wear in eternity.
But sufficient to say that is a different mindset from the litergical dogmas presented in the thread.

 

[Cassia]

Hebrews most assuredly mentions rewards and I'm not going over any verses you quoted but refer them to be taken in the context of rewards and loss thereof. I don't believe they will be redeemed in any case. That brings one to osas and the coat of many colors one will wear in eternity.
But sufficient to say that is a different mindset from the litergical dogmas presented in the thread.

I'm also on holiday and w/o access to resources so not trying to be rude in the short answers.

 

[Albion]

Stephen,

What was missing before still remains missing.

There's no reason to believe that there is a Purgatory.

Of course the church that invented Purgatory will offer us all sorts of items from its own chosen definition of "Purgatory," but there remains nothing that substantiates the claim that such a place or state of being exists.

Maybe if you approached that part of your answer first before moving to descriptions of the place....

 

[Stephen]

Stephen,

What was missing before still remains missing.

There's no reason to believe that there is a Purgatory.

Of course the church that invented Purgatory will offer us all sorts of items from its own chosen definition of "Purgatory," but there remains nothing that substantiates the claim that such a place or state of being exists.

Maybe if you approached that part of your answer first before moving to descriptions of the place....

If you can't say why post #40 does not show a need for, and existence of, a process of purification then I'm not sure that anything will satisfy you.

However for completeness I will move on to the next part of my argument.

Part 2 Sanctification – becoming Holy
Purgatory is about becoming perfectly holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin. The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.

We are born into a sinful condition.
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5).

During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jn 1:8).

Or as St. Paul put it
“Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” (Rom 7:25)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
“But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.” (2Pet 3:13-14)

“Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.” (1Jn 3:2-3)

“But he gives more grace; therefore it says, ‘God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.’ Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.” (Jas 4:6-10)

We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.

Perfecting Love
St. Paul writes:
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. (Col 3:12-14)

Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. “So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”. (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else; indeed love is “the bond of perfection”. All else besides love; that which detracts from love; that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to “cover up” such things, they must be expunged, burnt out by the refiners fire (Mal 3:2).

As Paul says: “Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and slander be put away from you, with all malice” (Eph 4:31).


“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God’s discipline.
“It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.” (Heb 12:7-11).

“Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them.” (Wis 3:5-6)

Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and “bad attitudes” are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God’s mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy. Without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - "the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14) - at least most of us couldn’t

Only 3 more parts to go.

 

[Albion]

If you can't say why post #40 does not show a need for, and existence of, a process of purification then I'm not sure that anything will satisfy you.

That sounds a lot like you are saying you cannot show us that there is any such place or state of being.

But that aside, you have verified what I was calling to your attention by writing "show a need for" and "a process of purification."

"Purgatory" is a particular entity, whether true or false. It has definition. That's because the Roman Catholic Church created it and gave it those features. Frank Baum did the same thing when he created the land of Oz and the Emerald City that Dorothy supposedly reached by way of the Yellow Brick Road. But I doubt that you think all of that actually exists EVEN THOUGH all of us can describe them.

So, yes, there may be a need for purification, but that doesn't mean at all that "Purgatory" is it!

 

[Stephen]

That sounds a lot like you are saying you cannot show us that there is any such place or state of being.

I have shown you but you are ignoring what I said.

But that aside, you have verified what I was calling to your attention by writing "show a need for" and "a process of purification."

What I wrote was "show a need for, and existence of, "
You have ignored the "and existence of"

"Purgatory" is a particular entity, whether true or false. It has definition. That's because the Roman Catholic Church created it and gave it those features

The Catholic Church - not Roman Catholic Church - did not create it.
Did you not read post #34?

. Frank Baum did the same thing when he created the land of Oz and the Emerald City that Dorothy supposedly reached by way of the Yellow Brick Road. But I doubt that you think all of that actually exists EVEN THOUGH all of us can describe them.

That is just silly. I see you are in to mockery.

So, yes, there may be a need for purification, but that doesn't mean at all that "Purgatory" is it!

And your alternative is - what?

 

[Albion]

I have shown you but you are ignoring what I said.

No. I heard you. But you explained the logic in there being something along the lines of a Purgatory.

You've steadfastly refused to attempt any justification for us to think that what the Roman Catholic Church invented in response to those Bible passages is what she chose to call "Purgatory."

To that extent, Purgatory is something like Limbo which the Church has now discarded. There is something hinted at in Scripture, so let's see what we can come up with that seems to meet all those goals. Then, let's give it a name and add a lot of other functions that aren't actually mentioned in Scripture (Indulgences, the 'Treasury of Merit,' and so on).

The awkward part about both Purgatory and Limbo is that there's no evidence that such places in the afterlife actually exist or ever did.

And if they don't exist, no amount of explanations about how they are supposed to "work" proves that they exist. Also, there is no reason why all the functions that Purgatory supposedly fulfills and which you so carefully presented to us cannot be realized in some other way.

And your alternative is - what?

Well, it might be that the soul will be cleansed in some other way in preparation for heaven. There could be all sorts of ways that God could provide this. Also, and as Josiah has pointed out, if you think that some spiritual blemishes remain on the account of the soul at that point, Christ promised that we would become new creatures through him; it's therefore a poor argument that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, made for all mankind, didn't really get the job done, so all who are saved must still experience a little bit of hell after death to tidy up or complete the process.

 

[Josiah]

Stephen,

What you posted in # 47 is both appreciative and helpful.... and to a point, has merit. The "problem" I have is even if all that is exactly as the Catholic Church currently and uniquely understands it, that still offers no substantiation for the RCC's unique dogma of Purgatory.


My Greek Orthodox friend shared this (I think I can relate her position with some accuracy).... She said that Scripture and Tradition say that nothing unholy can stand before God or be present in heaven. While we are here FORGIVEN we are nonetheless sinful (the East understands this far less so than we do in the West, but her point is: it's real). THEREFORE, while Scripture is silent on this.... and Tradition is quite weak.... in the East, there is a common OPINION (not doctrine, not binding) that in HIS MYSTERIOUS WAY, in the "twinkling of an eye" (less than a microsecond?) God performs yet another MIRACLE as we are prepared for and received into Heaven.... and that includes that we are now sinless. All this is left PURPOSELY undefined and as mystery and miracle. She strongly disagrees with the Catholic concept of Purgatory, not only because she disagrees with the Catholic (and Lutheran!) idea of sin but more so because this is "much foolishness" (as she put it), just one example of how the Catholic Church "says too much" and "confuses its theories with doctrine." As a Lutheran, I don't have any major objections to her Orthodox view.... at least as only opinion.... I don't even have a significant problem with most of what you wrote in that post.... but I don't see the substantiation for this very new, very unique invention of just the Catholic Church.


Thanks again for your helpful information....


Josiah




.

 

[Stephen]

No. I heard you. But you explained the logic in there being something along the lines of a Purgatory.

You've steadfastly refused to attempt any justification for us to think that what the Roman Catholic Church invented in response to those Bible passages is what she chose to call "Purgatory."

The Catholic Church did not invent Purgatory. It may have coined the name but not the concept.

To that extent, Purgatory is something like Limbo which the Church has now discarded. There is something hinted at in Scripture, so let's see what we can come up with that seems to meet all those goals. Then, let's give it a name and add a lot of other functions that aren't actually mentioned in Scripture (Indulgences, the 'Treasury of Merit,' and so on).

Purgatory is nothing like Limbo.
Limbo has not been discarded as official Catholic teaching because it never was official Catholic teaching.
It was a theological opinion of some to try to explain what happened to babes who died unbaptised.

The awkward part about both Purgatory and Limbo is that there's no evidence that such places in the afterlife actually exist or ever did.

As I have said before Purgatory is a process; a process of purification. I have given evidence for that process

And if they don't exist, no amount of explanations about how they are supposed to "work" proves that they exist. Also, there is no reason why all the functions that Purgatory supposedly fulfills and which you so carefully presented to us cannot be realized in some other way.

I have shown from scripture that there is a process of purification after death for those who need it.

Well, it might be that the soul will be cleansed in some other way in preparation for heaven. There could be all sorts of ways that God could provide this. Also, and as Josiah has pointed out, if you think that some spiritual blemishes remain on the account of the soul at that point, Christ promised that we would become new creatures through him;

What other way of purification/cleansing? They are all contained in the concept of Purgatory.
I think you are looking for a detailed process but that is not the way it works with God.
We say God punishes people but we don't try and specify a particular way that God punished everyone who sins.
We say God rewards people but we don't try and specify a particular way that God rewards people.
Similarly we say God purifies/cleanses souls after death if they are not fully pure/clean but we don't try and specify a particular way that God purifies/cleanses people.

The Catechism says (para 1030) "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
That doesn't attempt to say how God purifies anyone. It could be different for every person.

it's therefore a poor argument that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, made for all mankind, didn't really get the job done, so all who are saved must still experience a little bit of hell after death to tidy up or complete the process.

Christ's death on the cross dealt with the eternal punishment for sin. It doesn't take away of requirement for us to make amends, as far as we can, for the damage we do to others (or to ourselves).

Or are you suggesting we can sin with impunity?

 

[Stephen]

Stephen,

What you posted in # 47 is both appreciative and helpful.... and to a point, has merit. The "problem" I have is even if all that is exactly as the Catholic Church currently and uniquely understands it, that still offers no substantiation for the RCC's unique dogma of Purgatory.


My Greek Orthodox friend shared this (I think I can relate her position with some accuracy).... She said that Scripture and Tradition say that nothing unholy can stand before God or be present in heaven. While we are here FORGIVEN we are nonetheless sinful (the East understands this far less so than we do in the West, but her point is: it's real). THEREFORE, while Scripture is silent on this.... and Tradition is quite weak.... in the East, there is a common OPINION (not doctrine, not binding) that in HIS MYSTERIOUS WAY, in the "twinkling of an eye" (less than a microsecond?) God performs yet another MIRACLE as we are prepared for and received into Heaven.... and that includes that we are now sinless. All this is left PURPOSELY undefined and as mystery and miracle. She strongly disagrees with the Catholic concept of Purgatory, not only because she disagrees with the Catholic (and Lutheran!) idea of sin but more so because this is "much foolishness" (as she put it), just one example of how the Catholic Church "says too much" and "confuses its theories with doctrine." As a Lutheran, I don't have any major objections to her Orthodox view.... at least as only opinion.... I don't even have a significant problem with most of what you wrote in that post.... but I don't see the substantiation for this very new, very unique invention of just the Catholic Church.


Thanks again for your helpful information....


Josiah




.

Hi Josiah,
My first point is that, unlike the Catholic Church, Orthodoxy is not one single set of doctrines. On some issues Orthodox have some different doctrines between the main divisions.#
As I quoted in post #34
Orthodoxy
Some Orthodox teach Aerial Toll-Houses regarding the souls journey after its departure from the body after death.

But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, (St. Mark of Ephesus)
(Aerial Toll-Houses - OrthodoxWiki)

St. Mark of Ephesus was the main spokesman and theologian for the Orthodox at the Council of Ferrara in 1438. He also wrote that “the souls of people who die with unforgiven minor sins will experience spiritual sufferings in the afterlife, which, however, are not divine punishments but self-inflicted consequences of these sins”

I can't see how that is very different to the Catholic position.

 

[Albion]

The Catholic Church did not invent Purgatory. It may have coined the name but not the concept.

Certainly, she did. Officially, that was in the 15th century, but if you want to argue that it was previously known, all that can be referred to are a few fleeting comments from early church leaders and very, very sketchy hints in Scripture such as the mention of "fire" or works being burned, etc.

To claim that the church did not invent Purgatory with its many specifics, features, functions, and everything else that makes Purgatory be Purgatory, such as venial sins being treated differently from mortal sin, punishment needed for sins already forgiven, indulgences, the treasury of merit justifying shortening a soul's time in Purgatory because of prayers from the living, etc. etc. etc. just does not hold up to scrutiny.

What makes "Purgatory" what it allegedly is...is the whole thing, not just a little hint about a characteristic here or there which might be made to "fit." Otherwise, it's like claiming that automobiles are of ancient origin because we have evidence that the wheel was an early invention.

Purgatory is nothing like Limbo.

In some ways, it is. But it's not exactly the same thing, nor did I say that it was.

As I have said before Purgatory is a process; a process of purification. I have given evidence for that process

but not for the existence of "Purgatory" in particular. Not something that, according to speculation, is sort of like "Purgatory" in some ways. That is the point we don't seem to get you to confront.

 

[Lanman87]

The Catholic Church did not invent Purgatory

You are correct about this. The concept of purgatory goes back to at least Plato. Hundreds of years before Christianity he wrote in "Concerning the Souls" about the concept of a place of purification after death. It is not surprising that the early church kicked around the notion of purgatory, considering so many of the early church theologians were well versed in Platonism. However, it took a while for "purgatory" to go mainstream. Like so many things in Christianity, purgatory gained traction in the 4th and 5th centuries as Christianity slowly gained acceptance by Rome and Romans started converting to Christianity in mass. It wasn't until Gregory the Great that purgatory as we know it today, was clearly defined.

The real question is not how the concept of purgatory came to be part of Christianity. The real question is "Was it taught by Christ and the Apostles" or was it something that came about from Theological speculation (of fallible men) which developed over time. If it can be shown to have been taught by Christ and the Apostles then we need to embrace it. If it is something that came about from Theological speculation from fallible men, then we need to reject it, or at least not treat it dogmatically.

My personal belief is that it came from Theologians who were influenced by Plato and, to a lesser extent, Jewish Mysticism (Jews who went beyond the written Law and Prophets) and had their own unique spin on Jewish practices.

I believe we have been saved by faith through grace, we are being saved by faith through grace, and we will be saved by faith through grace. As long as I am "In Christ" two things happen. One, I will seek to His kingdom and His righteousness because God is working in me through the power of the Holy Spirit. Two, when I fail and commit a sin it is immediately forgiven (and probably forgiven before I even commit the sin because God knows what I will do before I do). My position of being "In Christ" by the power of Holy Spirit grants me the righteousness of Christ which overwhelms and cleanses any personal unrighteousness that I have. We obtain "The righteousness of God through Faith" Romans 3:22 Which is why there is "No condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus". Romans 8:1

Plus, when we are born-again Children of God we are valued, loved, and accepted by God more than we could ever imagine. The concept of purgatory, which is inflicting pain and suffering on someone who is a Spiritual Child of God for punishment goes against the Nature of God. You can't really call purgatory discipline because discipline is meant to correct. After we are dead there is no more correction, our choices and actions are set in stone. We are either rewarded for our faith in Christ or punished for rejecting Christ. If there is a sort of purgatory then it is a glorious thing as we are freed from the bondage of sin as we shed our mortal bodies, not a punishment for past "minor" sins. Which is why we call what happens at death for those who are "in Christ" Glorification.

(all humans are children of God in the sense that we are made in the image of God, however, all humans aren't born again by the Holy Spirit who makes them new creations, adopted, and citizens of heaven)

See Philippians 3:20-21
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

We eagerly await that transformation. Instead of dreading the fires of purgatory like so many Catholics (sadly) do.

 

[Stephen]

Certainly, she did. Officially, that was in the 15th century, but if you want to argue that it was previously known, all that can be referred to are a few fleeting comments from early church leaders.....

If it was know to the early church leaders, fleeting or not, then it was known well before the 15th century.

Here are three very relevant quotes from Augustine

Augustine
"The man who has cultivated that remote land and who has gotten his bread by his very great labor is able to suffer this labor to the end of this life. After this life, however, it is not necessary that he suffer. But the man who perhaps has not cultivated the land and has allowed it to be overrun with brambles has in this life the curse of his land on all his works, and after this life he will have either purgatorial fire or eternal punishment" (Genesis Defended Against the Manichaeans 2:20:30 [A.D. 389]).

Augustine
"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [inter A.D. 413-426]).

Augustine
"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Enchiridion of Faith, Hope, and Love 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

Another very interesting one is this:
In The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (AD 402) Perpetua describes a vision she had of her brother Dinocrates, seven years dead, and says I saw Dinocrates going out froma gloomy place, where there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died.”….. “For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach the other…. and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering” then later she had a further vision “I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment…Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment”.

There are many examples from the early centuries of praying for the dead. That shows that there was something after death that could happen to a dead person that such prayers could assist with. That could not be heaven (not needed) or hell (could not help).
These are taken from This Rock Magazine May-June 1992

Abercius
"The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed; truly I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 180]).

Tertullian
"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries" (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

Tertullian
"A woman, after the death of her husband...prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1-2 [post A.D. 213]).

Lactantius
"But also, when God will judge the just, it is likewise in fire that he will try them. At that time, they whose sins are uppermost, either because of their gravity or their number, will be drawn together by the fire and will be burned. Those, however, who have been imbued with full justice and maturity of virtue, will not feel that fire; for they have something of God in them which will repel and turn back the strength of the flame" (The Divine Institutions 7:21:6 [inter A.D. 304-310]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out" (Catechetical Lectures 23:Mystagogic 5:9 [A.D. 350]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. I know that there are many who are saying this: 'If a soul departs from this world with sins, what does it profit it to be remembered in the prayer?' Well, if a king were to banish certain persons who had offended him, and those intervening for them were to plait a crown and offer it to him on behalf of the ones who were being punished, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we too offer prayers to him for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners. We do not plait a crown, but offer up Christ who has been sacrificed for our sins; and we thereby propitiate the benevolent God for them as well as for ourselves" (Ibid. 5:10).

Gregory of Nyssa
"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he have inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).

Epiphanius
"Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf, even if it does not force back the whole of guilty charges laid to them. And it is useful also, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily, and thus it is a reminder to do better" (Panacea Against All Heresies 75:8 [inter A.D. 374-377]).

John Chrysostom
"Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extant of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf" (Homilies on the Epistle to the Philippians 3:9-10 [inter A.D. 398-404]).

Contd. next post

 

[Stephen]

contd.

Augustine
"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [inter A.D. 391-430]).

Augustine
"But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commem-orated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death" (Ibid. 172:2).


Augustine
"The prayer either of the Church herself or of pious individuals is heard on behalf of certain of the dead, but it is heard for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not for the rest of their life in the body do such wickedness that they might be judged unworthy of such mercy, nor who yet lived so well that it might be supposed they have no need of such mercy" (Ibid. 21:24:2).

Augustine
"The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator [Mass] is offered for them, or when alms are given in the Church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterward be able to be helped by these things. There is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicked that these helps are of no avail after death" (Ibid. 29:109).


Gregory I
"Everyone is presented in judgment just as he is when he departs this life. But nevertheless, it must be believed that there is, for the sake of certain lesser faults, a purgatorial fire before the judgment, in view of the fact that Truth does say that if anyone speak b.asphemy against the Holy Spirit it will be forgiven him neither in this world nor in that to come. In this statement we are given to understand that some faults can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For if something is denied to one in particular, the intellect logically infers that it is granted for some others. But, as I said before, this must be believed to be a possible disposition for small and lesser sins" (Dialogues 4:41 [A.D. 593]).0

 

[Stephen]

..... and very, very sketchy hints in Scripture such as the mention of "fire" or works being burned, etc.

Not very sketchy hints in scripture. I gave you 9 scriptures in post #40 and 10 in post 47.
Here are some more.

Part 3 - Attachments
Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.

Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)

Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.

The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.

“[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.” (Ti 2:14)

This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.

Cleansing Fire


Catholic belief:
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. ….. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. (CCC 1031)

Scripture speaks of going through fire:
“thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire [i.e. purgatory] and through water [i.e. baptism]; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.[ i.e. heaven]”. (Psalm 66:12)

“when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning [purgatory].” (Isaiah 4,4)

1Cor 3:10-17 is an important passage
10 “According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.”
11 “For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
12 “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—“
13 “each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.”
14 “If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.”
15 “If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
16 “Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?”
17 “If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.”

In verses 10-13 Paul says that when we die our work will be judged. That work is both our good works and our bad works (sins) and that there will be reward or punishment according to these works.

Verse 14 is someone whose work stands. These are the good works, and those with only good works will go straight to heaven.

Verse 15 is someone whose works are burnt up (because they are bad) but the person themselves will be saved. The bad works (sins) were not serious enough to cut themselves off from God.

Verses 16-17 describe someone whose works are so bad that they have destroyed the temple where God dwells (their souls) and cut themselves off from God. God will destroy the person.

Now consider the second case (vs 15)
Someone can suffer loss as though fire but still be saved. There is something other than heaven or hell through which we can pass which will purify us (burn out our sins).

There are other texts that speak of this purifying fire:
“But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.” (Mal 3:2-3)

“In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (1Pet 1:6-7)


Other points

There is some punishment remaining after sins have been forgiven
David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die." Then Nathan went to his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died." (2 Sam 12:13-18)
God forgave David’s sin but even after he was forgiven there was still punishment for his sin.

There is forgiveness of sin after death.
“And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (Mt 12:32)
It implies there is forgiveness in the age to come.”
What is this age to come where we can be forgiven sin? Heaven, Hell – or somewhere else?

We must be fully righteous before we are fit for heaven.
“but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1Jn 1:7-9)

If we are not fully righteous when we die then there is a final purification before we are fit to enter heaven. This is what Jesus won for us by the shedding of his blood.

There are also passages that make no sense in a heaven or hell only theology
“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” (Jas 5:19-20)

 

[Stephen]

More Scriptural Points for Purgatory

Point 1
“And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating.” (Lk 12:42-48)

Where will some be beaten heavily and some lightly when Jesus returns? Not heaven because we aren’t beaten there. Not hell because the Master won’t be in hell.

Point 2 We must be fully holy and righteousness to be in the presence of God.
O Lord, who shall sojourn in thy tent? Who shall dwell on thy holy hill?
He who walks blamelessly, and does what is right, and speaks truth from his heart;
who does not slander with his tongue, and does no evil to his friend,
nor takes up a reproach against his neighbour; in whose eyes a reprobate is despised, but who honours those who fear the Lord;
who swears to his own hurt and does not change; who does not put out his money at interest, and does not take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things shall never be moved. (Ps 15)

Point 3
2 Macc. 12:44-45 is about atoning for the sins of the dead.

Point 4
Take Jesus’ parable of the man who owed a huge debt (Mt 18:23-34). At the end he says: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt”

There is an implication that when the debt was paid he would be released. Now where was the man until he paid the debt? Not in Hell because you cannot get out of there. Not in heaven because there are no torturers in heaven. This is taken as a parable about forgiveness, but also about Purgatory.:

 

[Stephen]

To claim that the church did not invent Purgatory with its many specifics, features, functions, and everything else that makes Purgatory be Purgatory, such as venial sins being treated differently from mortal sin, punishment needed for sins already forgiven, indulgences, the treasury of merit justifying shortening a soul's time in Purgatory because of prayers from the living, etc. etc. etc. just does not hold up to scrutiny.

Scripture distinguishes between sin that is mortal that which is not.
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God[a] will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 1All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. (1John 5:16-17)
The rest of your complaint needs another thread