Sinless Mary

[Arsenios]

Any female could have.

Hard to admire a woman, yes?

What we see in Mary is God choosing. So much for free will...

So do you think she was violated by God then???

Turned into a birth-mom-breeder against her will???

Artificially and involuntarily impregnated you say???

Getting a tad twisty here, Menno...

Where in the Bible does it say "Any woman could have birthed Christ?"

Show me that passage, Menno...

Show us all that passage...

You can't even call her blessed, can you?

Kind sticks in your throat does it???


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

I hold Mary in very high esteem because...

1. God chose Her before the very foundations of the universe for a very important role in the salvation of humanity...
2. God called Her the "favored"
3. She is Jesus' mother.... and Jesus honored and loved Her.
4. She is a profound and amazing example of simple, humble FAITH
5. She is a profound and amazing example of active, loving OBEDIENCE.


Now... does that make it DOGMA that She was 9 feet tall or was allergic to fish? Does it make it DOGMA that She was conceived without original sin or that she and Joseph never, um, you know? Does it make it DOGMA that Joseph was much older than her or that She was assumed into heaven directly upon Her death (or undeath)? Does it mean we can't go to heaven unless She prays for us at the moment of our death? Nope.


I think there are two common mistakes concerning Our Lady: To say too much and to say too little.


I find it.... sad..... that modern Roman Catholicism has made SO much of Mary (with SO little of it seeming to be of highest certainty possible and greatest importance possible).... and that "Evangelicals" have "reacted" by abandoning Her, even at times thinking of Her as little more than an enslaved oven. To FIGHT over Mary is something Lutherans decry.



- Josiah




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[Tigger]

Didn't Origen also write this:

(Origen, ca. 240, 'Commentary on The Song of Songs' 3:13, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 26:237)
"'For all have sinned,' [Romans 3:23] as it is written; and again, as Scripture says: 'There is no just man upon earth that hath done good and hath not sinned;' [Ecclesiastes 7:20] and again: 'No one is free of uncleanness, not even if his life be of but one day.' [Cf. Job 14:4] Therefore Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ alone is He 'who did no sin' [cf. 1 Peter 2:22, citing Isaiah 53:9; 2 Corinthians 5:21]"

Evidently he did and even I who has a high Mariology for a Protestant can't reconcile her sinlessness and scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Evidently he did and even I who has a high Mariology for a Protestant can't reconcile her sinlessness and scripture.

If Job can be called perfect by Jehovah and Enoch declared as a man who pleased God why is it so hard to conceive of Blessed Mary as without sin?

 

[Albion]

If Job can be called perfect by Jehovah and Enoch declared as a man who pleased God why is it so hard to conceive of Blessed Mary as without sin?

Are you sure that that reference supports your contention?

We know for certain that Job was not literally "perfect," i.e. sinless, but that the word is used in his case to mean something less than that. Only God is perfect.

So if Mary found favor with God or is called "blessed" by later generations, there is absolutely no reason to think of that word as meaning that she either was conceived without sin or never did sin.

 

[MennoSota]

His ONE sin caused the Fall...

Prior to that one sin he had no sin...

Unless you want to call God a liar...

"The day you shall eat thereof you shall surely die..."

Unless, of course, you want to count his failure to repent of that one sin as also a cause of the Fall...

But by that time, he was too wounded by his first sin to repent of it...

It was that WOMAN You sent me, Lord!

SHE is to blame, not ME, OK?


Arsenios

How does Adam relate to Mary? Are you claiming, like Pelagius, that humans are born sinless?

 

[MennoSota]

Hard to admire a woman, yes?



So do you think she was violated by God then???

Turned into a birth-mom-breeder against her will???

Artificially and involuntarily impregnated you say???

Getting a tad twisty here, Menno...

Where in the Bible does it say "Any woman could have birthed Christ?"

Show me that passage, Menno...

Show us all that passage...

You can't even call her blessed, can you?

Kind sticks in your throat does it???


Arsenios

Off topic.
Mary, sinless or not?

 

[Tigger]

If Job can be called perfect by Jehovah and Enoch declared as a man who pleased God why is it so hard to conceive of Blessed Mary as without sin?

Are you contending that both Job and Enoch were also Immaculately conceived as BVM was because isn’t that your line of thought for her sinlessness?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are you contending that both Job and Enoch were also Immaculately conceived as BVM was because isn’t that your line of thought for her sinlessness?

What I did is repeat what holy scripture says about Job and Enoch.

 

[Andrew]

All but Jesus (100% God/100%Man) are born into Sin, even the mother of Jesus.
I'm sure she most definitely uttered some hateful word towards someone at some time in her life, she was not 100% Holy like Jesus.
Her brilliance in strength is beyond my comprehension and she is ultimately way far stronger and righteous than I believe I am.
In the end no matter how you look at it, she was still a human who made sinful human mistakes/errors as we all do, she called her own son her savior for a reason.

 

[Tigger]

What I did is repeat what holy scripture says about Job and Enoch.

Exactly in referring to my post of Mary’s sinlessness extending it to Job and Enoch but would then require IC.

 

[Arsenios]

Exactly in referring to my post of Mary’s sinlessness extending it to Job and Enoch but would then require IC.

Why does her sinlessness require the doctrine of the I/C?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

All but Jesus (100% God/100%Man) are born into Sin.

Scripture tells us we are born into death, which is why all have sinned...


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Scripture tells us we are born into death, which is why all have sinned...


Arsenios

Try the opposite it makes much more since

 

[Tigger]

Why does her sinlessness require the doctrine of the I/C?


Arsenios

Its not my thing its a RC thing. But if MC is going to list others as sinless then wouldn’t they also require an IC?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Exactly in referring to my post of Mary’s sinlessness extending it to Job and Enoch but would then require IC.

The immaculate conception of Blessed Mary is only about the stain of original sin. Job and Enoch are not said to have been kept free of that stain.

 

[Josiah]

What I did is repeat what holy scripture says about Job and Enoch.

1. Neither verse says that Job or Enoch were sinless... much less uniquely conceived without original sin. Evidently, it's possible to be "perfect" in a sense and to "please God" in a sense without being sinless and uniquely conceived without original sin. The Bible clearly says that ALL have sinned...and that if we claim sinlessness, "we lie and make God a liar."


2. Neither of these verses say that there were 3 only-humans who were conceived without original sin and were sinless throughout their lives: Mary, Job and Enoch.


This is a very new dogma of just one singular, unique, individual denomination (yours)... it obviously is not taught anywhere in Scripture or in any Ecumenical Council or even by your denomination until the 12th Century (long after it split from the EOC). It seems no one even mentioned it - even as just a theoretical possibility - until the 5th Century. We all realize real Catholics will docilicly swallow it whole BECAUSE their denomination tells them to do it, but IMO that doesn't make it substantiated, just taught by one denomination - first informally in the 12th Century, dogmatically since the 19th Century.



A blessed Christmas to all!



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

1. Neither verse says that Job or Enoch were sinless... much less uniquely conceived without original sin. Evidently, it's possible to be "perfect" in a sense and to "please God" in a sense without being sinless and uniquely conceived without original sin. The Bible clearly says that ALL have sinned...and that if we claim sinlessness, "we lie and make God a liar."


2. Neither of these verses say that there were 3 only-humans who were conceived without original sin and were sinless throughout their lives: Mary, Job and Enoch.

I said neither of those things myself. You're very observant to repeat what I said. Jehovah said Job was perfect and it is said of Enoch that he pleased God.

 

[Josiah]

I said neither of those things myself. You're very observant to repeat what I said. Jehovah said Job was perfect and it is said of Enoch that he pleased God.

Then you agree with me: Neither of those examples have any relevance whatsoever to this topic or to any apologetic for this new, unique dogma of your individual denomination. Good, we agree.

 

[Albion]

What I did is repeat what holy scripture says about Job and Enoch.

No, you did not merely repeat what scripture says about Job and Enoch. You also opined that because scripture says what it does about them, then the case for Mary's supposed sinlessness is made as well.

If Job can be called perfect by Jehovah and Enoch declared as a man who pleased God why is it so hard to conceive of Blessed Mary as without sin?

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