Anglican origins, claims, theology.

[MoreCoffee]

SHOCK
Lutherans and Anglicans don't have identical teachings and practices. I know that shocks the daylights out of MoreCoffee. But then this thread isn't about Lutheranism, is it?

It is shocking really. Each group claiming to be teaching the truth while at the same time being sure that the other is in heresy. I agree that Anglicans and Lutherans are both in heresy, but it is shocking that their heresies differ so widely that they see heresy in the other.

Yet Josiah says "SHOCK" as if it is no surprise that Lutherans see Anglicans as teachers of error. To Josiah this is a normal state. Anglicans and Lutherans are expected to be at odds about doctrine. That is the Protestant "norm". It doesn't shock protestants.

Of course it would shock the apostles.

2 Peter 1:3-15 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, [SUP]4[/SUP] by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. [SUP]5[/SUP] For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, [SUP]6[/SUP] and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, [SUP]7[/SUP] and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. [SUP]8[/SUP] For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]9[/SUP] For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. [SUP]10[/SUP] Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; [SUP]11[/SUP] so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. [SUP]12[/SUP] Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. [SUP]13[/SUP] I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder, [SUP]14[/SUP] since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. [SUP]15[/SUP] And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

 

[Albion]

I agree that Anglicans and Lutherans are both in heresy, but it is shocking that their heresies differ so widely that they see heresy in the other.

Isn't it precious that you are "shocked" to discover that different churches have somewhat different beliefs or practices--Catholic Lutheran, and Anglican in this case.

I would think that someone like yourself who has personally belonged to a series of them would no longer be shocked at this fact of life.






.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Isn't it precious that you are "shocked" to discover that different churches have somewhat different beliefs or practices--Catholic Lutheran, and Anglican in this case.

I would think that someone like yourself who has personally belonged to a series of them would no longer be shocked at this fact of life.

You too are unmoved by the shocking differences between Anglicans and Lutherans. You too see it as a norm, something to be expected. Something that is normal between Protestant denominations. Of course it goes without saying that you along with Josiah reject Catholic teaching - after all, isn't that what the protestant enterprise is at heart, a rejection of what the Catholic Church teaches and does so that a new church formed according to Protestant norms can be forged.

What makes it shocking to me is not that the differences exist but that you're so satisified that they do exist and desire nothing more than that they should continue to exist.

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgement.

Saint Paul's exhortation falls on deaf ears with you.

 

[Albion]

You too are unmoved by the shocking differences between Anglicans and Lutherans. You too see it as a norm, something to be expected. Something that is normal between Protestant denominations.

Frankly, I think that it is not your place to decide for me what my opinion on that is, rather than decide for me, Menno-like.

What makes it shocking to me is not that the differences exist but that you're so satisfied that they do exist

Where did I say that I was so satisfied that the differences do exist? That's just silly, too silly to provoke me as you are hoping to do.

If all of our wishes could come true, all of us here would rather that the whole Christian world were united in believing exactly as we ourselves do. There is nothing special in that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You too are unmoved by the shocking differences between Anglicans and Lutherans. You too see it as a norm, something to be expected. Something that is normal between Protestant denominations. Of course it goes without saying that you along with Josiah reject Catholic teaching - after all, isn't that what the protestant enterprise is at heart, a rejection of what the Catholic Church teaches and does so that a new church formed according to Protestant norms can be forged.

What makes it shocking to me is not that the differences exist but that you're so satisified that they do exist and desire nothing more than that they should continue to exist.

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgement.

Saint Paul's exhortation falls on deaf ears with you.

Frankly, I think that it is not your place to decide for me what my opinion on that is, rather than decide for me, Menno-like.


Where did I say that I was so satisfied that the differences do exist? That's just silly, too silly to provoke me as you are hoping to do.

If all of our wishes could come true, all of us here would rather that the whole Christian world were united in believing exactly as we ourselves do. There is nothing special in that.

My apologies if you too are shocked that the differences exist and continue to exist with so many showing evident complacency that they should continue to exist. I'd be pleased to see you writing about your desire to have the differences end and for unity in the faith to be restored (or created if you think it never existed in the past).

The Apostles urged unity in the faith upon Christians.

It would be good to see you doing the same.

Ephesians 4:4-15 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call-- [SUP]5[/SUP] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [SUP]6[/SUP] one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. [SUP]7[/SUP] But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. [SUP]8[/SUP] Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." [SUP]9[/SUP] (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? [SUP]10[/SUP] He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) [SUP]11[/SUP] And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, [SUP]12[/SUP] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [SUP]13[/SUP] until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, [SUP]14[/SUP] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. [SUP]15[/SUP] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

 

[Albion]

My apologies if you too are shocked that the differences exist and continue to exist with so many showing evident complacency that they should continue to exist. I'd be pleased to see you writing about your desire to have the differences end and for unity in the faith to be restored (or created if you think it never existed in the past).

The Apostles urged unity in the faith upon Christians.

It would be good to see you doing the same.

Unity is good. I would be more than happy to see you and everyone else join the church I belong to. :thumbsup:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Unity is good. I would be more than happy to see you and everyone else join the church I belong to. :thumbsup:

That is just playing a game Albion. Doing what MennoSota does.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yes. I am not sure that women's ordination does constitute heresy. But that is probably irrelevant to the discussion. Some Anglican churches do ordain women (as of a couple of generations ago), while others do not--just as is the case with Lutherans and some other 'families of faith.' IMHO, it is important not to generalize when pointing fingers in this kind of discussion.

I agree. This is a point (ordination of women) where I come out on the other side. I was raised Presbyterian (PCUSA), and even though our congregation was quite on the conservative side, we accepted women as Pastors - most quite effective. So the issue of error/heresy on this point is less clear to me - even biblically, which I read more as cultural for the time on that point

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

You too are unmoved by the shocking differences between Anglicans and Lutherans. You too see it as a norm, something to be expected. Something that is normal between Protestant denominations. Of course it goes without saying that you along with Josiah reject Catholic teaching - after all, isn't that what the protestant enterprise is at heart, a rejection of what the Catholic Church teaches and does so that a new church formed according to Protestant norms can be forged.

Of course we must then make clear the Catholic enterprise at heart - a rejection of what the Protestant church teaches and does. Luther wasn't treated so kindly. We observed in another thread that Luther was entreated to come back to the faith and he would be treated well, but if not... Well, we saw the outcome of that didn't we?

 

[Albion]

I agree. This is a point (ordination of women) where I come out on the other side. I was raised Presbyterian (PCUSA), and even though our congregation was quite on the conservative side, we accepted women as Pastors - most quite effective. So the issue of error/heresy on this point is less clear to me - even biblically, which I read more as cultural for the time on that point

It looks to me that we are thinking along somewhat different lines, however. What I meant when I said that about heresy is that I am not sure that being wrong on this particular issue is considered to be a matter of "heresy." It would be erroneous, of course, and it would impact a church's Apostolic Succession if that is involved, but is it actually a heresy?

There are boundaries for determining anything to be heretical, and something in the back of my mind seems to be reminding me that this does not qualify. But I could be wrong about that and it probably isn't critical to our discussion on this thread anyway.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Of course we must then make clear the Catholic enterprise at heart - a rejection of what the Protestant church teaches and does. Luther wasn't treated so kindly. We observed in another thread that Luther was entreated to come back to the faith and he would be treated well, but if not... Well, we saw the outcome of that didn't we?

The Council of Trent did respond to Protestant views labelling many of them as heresy. Yet the Council of Trent was not in the business of creating a new Church. It was called for two main purposes

1. To reform abuses within the Catholic Church
2. To respond to Protestant claims.

But the Catholic enterprise was in existence for upwards of a thousand years before there was such a thing as Protestantism so it cannot be rightly said that "the Catholic enterprise at heart - [is] a rejection of what the Protestant church teaches and does". That claim is ahistorical as well as inaccurate. It is fair enough to point to Trent as a reaction (at least in part) to Protestantism but that is as far as it goes, one council called to respond to what was happening due to Protestantism.

 

[Arsenios]

That is just playing a game Albion. Doing what MennoSota does.

OK you two...

Menno is not the town drunk that the hell-fire preachers treasure so they can point their gnarly fingers at him to frighten other sinners...

Be nice to poor little ol' innocent and harmless Meno, OK?


Arsenios.

 

[MoreCoffee]

OK you two...

Menno is not the town drunk that the hell-fire preachers treasure so they can point their gnarly fingers at him to frighten other sinners...

Be nice to poor little ol' innocent and harmless Meno, OK?


Arsenios.

He's neither innocent nor harmless.

 

[Arsenios]

He's neither innocent nor harmless.

He is a widdo puppy-pie boo-boo and nobody gets to say anything mean about him!

I mean, How COULD you!!??


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

STAFF NOTICE: Please talk about the topic and not other members. Thank you.

 

[MennoSota]

STAFF NOTICE: Please talk about the topic and not other members. Thank you.

I blame it on semi-pelagianism.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I blame it on semi-pelagianism.

You think Anglicans teach Semipelagianism?

 

[MennoSota]

You think Anglicans teach Semipelagianism?

There are only about two posters on this site who aren't semi-pelagians and synergists.
I haven't seen atpollard here in awhile. He's not a semi-pelagian.
The Anglican Church is semi-pelagian.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There are only about two posters on this site who aren't semi-pelagians and synergists.
I haven't seen atpollard here in awhile. He's not a semi-pelagian.
The Anglican Church is semi-pelagian.

I wonder what Albion thinks of that?

 

[MennoSota]

I wonder what Albion thinks of that?

To be fair, it's much less on the scale than the RCC and EOC.