CRISIS IN ORTHODOXY - UKRANIAN AUTOCEPHALOY

Arsenios

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Shame on you for supporting a church denomination that is bent on power, not on seeking God's work of grace.

Still the snotty little potty mouth Menno??

Still trying to shame adults??

How's that working out for you?

How about some name calling again?


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Still the snotty little potty mouth Menno??

Still trying to shame adults??

How's that working out for you?

How about some name calling again?


Arsenios
You ignore the sins of your denomination while calling me names. Call on your denomination to repent and stop sleeping with the Russian government.
 

Arsenios

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Call on your denomination to repent and stop sleeping with the Russian government.

Snotty potty mouth Menno...

"Sleeping with" is it now? -

What happened with your "whore" accusation?

Are we sexually obsessed maybe a little bit huh?

Menno, ya gotta become an adult sometime...

Stop with the snotty little boy potty mouth and be a man...

I will not have a conversation with you until you get your snotty potty mouth under control...

Ya gonna man up or be a snotty...??



Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Snotty potty mouth Menno...

"Sleeping with" is it now? -

What happened with your "whore" accusation?

Are we sexually obsessed maybe a little bit huh?

Menno, ya gotta become an adult sometime...

Stop with the snotty little boy potty mouth and be a man...

I will not have a conversation with you until you get your snotty potty mouth under control...

Ya gonna man up or be a snotty...??



Arsenios
You refuse to call your denomination to repentance. It is a shame you support such evil actions. Actions that are not from God, but from hell.
 

Arsenios

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You refuse to call your denomination to repentance. It is a shame you support such evil actions. Actions that are not from God, but from hell.

Bye Snotty...

A.
 

MennoSota

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Bye Snotty...

A.
Call your denomination to repentance. You know they are playing with the devil in Russia. Call them to repentance.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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He is utterly popular in Russia - Moreso by percentages that any US President...

He often shows up without body guards, walks into crowds of people...

He has a monk for his Spiritual Father...

Western press has sold us a billon goods on him...

And yes, he is old-school tough...


Arsenios

All of those I would agree with. It's just the 'democratically elected' line that's a bit off for me. But as to the thread, I'm not a demonizer of either Putin or the Russian Orthodox church, however the Church/state link is hard to ignore, and one wonders how those things are inter-related with the business of the Ukraine.
 

Arsenios

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Trying to get Menno to man up is no small matter...

He is like a one-man AntiFa...

Face to face he would be much more courteous...

There is just something evil in internet anonymity...

Twitter is a sewer for the same reason...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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All of those I would agree with. It's just the 'democratically elected' line that's a bit off for me. But as to the thread, I'm not a demonizer of either Putin or the Russian Orthodox church, however the Church/state link is hard to ignore, and one wonders how those things are inter-related with the business of the Ukraine.

The popularity of Putin with the Russian people is one of the complaints US intelligence has about him...

He has vowed to not permit persecution of the Russian Orthodox people, Churches and Holy Sites - eg for instance, the Kiev Caves - by the secular EU leaning government that has been persecuting Orthodox Christians generally since it took over... That secular government has declared war on the Orthodox Faith in the Ukraine since it took power...


Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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The popularity of Putin with the Russian people is one of the complaints US intelligence has about him...

He has vowed to not permit persecution of the Russian Orthodox people, Churches and Holy Sites - eg for instance, the Kiev Caves - by the secular EU leaning government that has been persecuting Orthodox Christians generally since it took over... That secular government has declared war on the Orthodox Faith in the Ukraine since it took power...


Arsenios

Democracy of the sort one sees in Russia is a double edged sword. It doesn't suit USA diplomacy like Saudi tyranny.
 

Arsenios

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Democracy of the sort one sees in Russia is a double edged sword. It doesn't suit USA diplomacy like Saudi tyranny.

Pretty much...

I flat out do not trust our hidden diplomacy...

The incident with the ships was manufactured through the US...

So was the Gulf of Tonkin incident that entered us into the Vietnam War...


Arsenios
Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Here is a response of one Bishop to the Patriarch Bartholomew, “DEAR LOYAL SUBJECT OF THE TURKISH REPUBLIC, MR. BARTHOLOMEW!”
An Answer to the Invitation to Constantinople’s Ukrainian Robber Council

In the letter below, His Eminence Metropolitan Luke of Zaporozhye and Melitopol responds to the invitations being sent out by the Patriarchate of Constantinople to take part in its so-called “unification council” that aims to create a new church in Ukraine. Met. Luke has not hesitated to speak his mind throughout the recent and ongoing ecclesiastical crisis, and this letter is no exception. Whereas His Beatitude Metropolitan Onuphry of Kiev and All Ukraine chose to return his invitation unanswered to Constantinople, giving us an example of meekness and humility, Met. Luke offers us an example of fiery, righteous zeal—both examples that are good and necessary in the Church.

***

Dear loyal subject of the Turkish Republic, Mr. Bartholomew!
(better known as the “Ecumenical Patriarch”)


We have learned from the mass media that you are sending invitations for the “council of the unrighteous” (Ps. 1:1) through government officials. In this regard, allow me to express to you and your envoys my heartfelt gratitude for the efforts you are making through the Ukrainian state apparatus and the juggling of the norms of canon law to destroy the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (the successors to the Church born in the Dnieper font), previously recognized by you as the sole canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine! Thanks for what, you ask? For what you contribute by your actions to our Orthodox flock in entering the Kingdom of God, subjecting it to the discrimination and persecution that it is presently enduring. Unfortunately, you probably don’t know our people’s wise saying: “Love can’t be forced.” Your actions are those of a man blinded by the illusory glow of caesarean authority. By your participation in political projects aimed at splitting the unity of the Church, you’ve already placed your status as the first honored hierarch in Orthodoxy in serious doubt.
You declare today that in your person you represent “the Mother Church” for the Ukrainian people. However, for some reason, you act as the ideological inspirer of a large-scale campaign aimed at inciting hatred towards the UOC, the seizure of its sacred sites, the persecution of its flock, and the undermining of the position of Orthodoxy in Ukraine in favor of the gathering momentum of the Uniate “crusade” on native Orthodox lands! What kind of mother helps torture her child?

Those awaiting the swift advent of the Tomos are not afraid to shout such slogans at their gatherings: “Death to the enemy”; and under the walls of our diocesan administration: “Moscow priests to the gallows, like the communists!” This is how your new pupils treat us and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church as a whole, being in Eucharistic communion with the See entrusted to you. Terrible things stand behind these slogans: the dominance of political expediency in any important question of Church life, the reign of total persecution against a Church that doesn’t correspond to the general ideological line of the ruling elite, the desecration of holy sites and objects, and the perversion of the canons by longtime opponents of Orthodoxy, who are now actively disguising themselves in the garments of supporters of the autocephalous project being pushed by you.

Are you yourself ready to believe in the “Ukrainian national God,” or is this just an attempt to take our people under your omophorion? Or, quite horribly, do the processes provoked by you have ordinary mercantile interests as their foundation?

In your attempts to subject all the Orthodox Churches to the throne of Constantinople (like the Catholic Church), you forget that it was not a priest but a ceasar who was in power in Byzantium—an empire that hasn’t existed for many centuries already. And one of the reasons it’s gone—and perhaps the main one—is that at that time, some of your predecessors, the Byzantine patriarchs, allowed the faith to become a bargaining chip in the games of big politics. It’s a great pity that you don’t take this into account—or have deliberately forgotten it. After all, more than 500 years ago, it was precisely the betrayal of the Orthodox faith by Constantinople and its departure into the Unia with Rome, and not the geopolitical conditions of those times, that became the driving force behind Orthodoxy gaining independence from Byzantium in the lands of Rus’.

Thank you, Mr. Bartholomew, for aiding in our salvation. The only thing the clergy (whom your throne imagines to be its own for some absurd reason) and flock inquire of you is: What prevented you from hearing us in the spring? What has so clouded your mind that you consider yourself the Patriarch of the entire world? Perhaps your next step will be the assertion that you created this world out of nothing?

With gratitude and hope in God’s admonition for each of us,

LUKE
METROPOLITAN OF ZAPOROZHYE AND MELITOPOL

Translated by Jesse Dominick
The Zaporozhye Diocese of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
12/11/2018 shows the flavor of family disputes within the Orthodox Faith:

______________________________________________________________________
 

Arsenios

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And now it begins:

UKRAINIAN PRIESTS AND LAITY SUPPORTING PRIESTS
ARE BEING ACCUSED OF TREASON
AND ADDED TO GOV’T DATABASE OF ENEMIES OF UKRAINE


You may think it cannot happen here...
Human evil can happen anywhere...

http://orthochristian.com/117834.html

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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And now it begins:

UKRAINIAN PRIESTS AND LAITY SUPPORTING PRIESTS
ARE BEING ACCUSED OF TREASON
AND ADDED TO GOV’T DATABASE OF ENEMIES OF UKRAINE


You may think it cannot happen here...
Human evil can happen anywhere...

http://orthochristian.com/117834.html

Arsenios
It's been used by the Russian Orthodox against Christians for centuries. You never complained then.
The ROC is the spy network of the Russian government. Gotta hush a few more to break the Imperial chains of Moscow...
 

Josiah

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I lament and pray for all persecuted Christians....

I think it foolish for a denomination to get "in bed" with secular government.... typically, the secular state knows how to use and abuse politics better than denominations do and it usually works to the disadvantage of Christians. My own denomination left Germany and purposely chose the USA because church and state were not "in bed" here. Because of "foolish" on the part of Christians or not, I still decry and lament when the Gospel is hindered and the Body of Christ is persecuted. Sadly, WE (the church) tend to be too individualistic, too "near-sighted," too neglectful of our brothers and sisters in Christ.




.
 

Arsenios

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I lament and pray for all persecuted Christians....

I think it foolish for a denomination to get "in bed" with secular government.... typically, the secular state knows how to use and abuse politics better than denominations do and it usually works to the disadvantage of Christians. My own denomination left Germany and purposely chose the USA because church and state were not "in bed" here. Because of "foolish" on the part of Christians or not, I still decry and lament when the Gospel is hindered and the Body of Christ is persecuted. Sadly, WE (the church) tend to be too individualistic, too "near-sighted," too neglectful of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

I used to be a Libertarian Ayn Rand atheist... For me in those years, the only supreme being on earth was the human being... I did not have time for people who had sold out their minds to have faith in a non-demonstrable god of some kind or another... And you had better, in my thinking, not try to control me with your religious nonsense... So I totally get you on the desirability for a total separation of Church and State...

In Revelation 20:2-3 we find the Prophesy that the Serpent shall be bound for a thousand years, and then loosed for a little season... We are in that little season now... But when was Satan bound for a thousand years? There is only one nation that had him bound for a thousand years... It had a Religious Government and a secular one... A Patriarch and an Emperor... They worked hand in hand... It was established in Constantinople in 330, and finally fell in 1453... It's emblem is the double headed eagle...

So to your point, we really do not have a choice... The Liberty Bell cracked in Philadelphia... In the context of the disintegration of the Western Latin Church launched by Luther's inspiration, with many years of religious wars and persecutions in all manner of directions, and in a new nation conceived in Liberty, no longer under the rule of distant kings and having many competing colonies, religious freedom was needed, for the Colonies themselves were of differing sects and conflict arose easily, and getting along in peace in a violence-prone social context was needed, and we were given the Founding Fathers, Washington, Adams and Jefferson and the rest... Nature itself imposed her own union on the colonists...

And now we are under the rule of "individual rights" and the outworking thereof, and we are seeing in the streets the violence prone organization of forces set to destroy that foundation and persecute the people of faith under national world rule - For we are the New Rome, this USA, and beyond us there is no escape politically... The forces of Good and evil are arrayed against each other pretty clearly now... The natural divisions of the western church that united under the banner of the Constitution of limited government have been exploited in their divisions and individual rights are being assaulted by group-think mass hysteria, and the times are as interesting as is torture unto death...

Individual Rights, you see, as the foundation of the US, is breaking down, and is now disintegrating into the identity politics of "group rights" of various denominations... Individual Rights is itself a secular notion, as is identity politics, and itself devolves into family and corporate competing groups and the powers of talent arising therein... You see, the Christianity of the West is itself this great competition of competing beliefs, which have been exploited by their division at the hands of oppressive rule...

Which is why Russia clings to the authoritarian rule of her quasi-Emperor (now-President Putin) who keeps to the Apostolic Faith of the Russian Orthodox Church as it has been emerging from 80 years of horrific persecutions under the Communist Atheists - Who does not permit divisive religious sects much entry into the Russian lands... Russia is not a religious theocracy, as Islam tries to be, nor is it a secular Government of individual rights, but is held more along the lines of the old Byzantine Empire, and with television and the internet, Putin maintains his popularity by having a lot of fact time with the Russian people discussing world and domestic matters... He is perceived by his peers as one of the very wise leaders of the world...

The reign of the Roman Empire in Constantinople was for a little over a thousand years under one Orthodox Faith...

One of the questions I marvel at is this: "How well will that Orthodox Faith be received in a country of individual rights such as we have in the US?" For it was born under the persecutions of an autocratic government in Jerusalem fleeing to Egypt, and established itself in the political power of the Roman Empire under Constantinople for a thousand years, was picked up and transferred in power to Russia, and fell to the Communists, and is now emerging in the US in freedom...

We will find out...

But there will be a remnant that will not bend their knee...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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I used to be a Libertarian Ayn Rand atheist... For me in those years, the only supreme being on earth was the human being... I did not have time for people who had sold out their minds to have faith in a non-demonstrable god of some kind or another... And you had better, in my thinking, not try to control me with your religious nonsense... So I totally get you on the desirability for a total separation of Church and State...

In Revelation 20:2-3 we find the Prophesy that the Serpent shall be bound for a thousand years, and then loosed for a little season... We are in that little season now... But when was Satan bound for a thousand years? There is only one nation that had him bound for a thousand years... It had a Religious Government and a secular one... A Patriarch and an Emperor... They worked hand in hand... It was established in Constantinople in 330, and finally fell in 1453... It's emblem is the double headed eagle...

So to your point, we really do not have a choice... The Liberty Bell cracked in Philadelphia... In the context of the disintegration of the Western Latin Church launched by Luther's inspiration, with many years of religious wars and persecutions in all manner of directions, and in a new nation conceived in Liberty, no longer under the rule of distant kings and having many competing colonies, religious freedom was needed, for the Colonies themselves were of differing sects and conflict arose easily, and getting along in peace in a violence-prone social context was needed, and we were given the Founding Fathers, Washington, Adams and Jefferson and the rest... Nature itself imposed her own union on the colonists...

And now we are under the rule of "individual rights" and the outworking thereof, and we are seeing in the streets the violence prone organization of forces set to destroy that foundation and persecute the people of faith under national world rule - For we are the New Rome, this USA, and beyond us there is no escape politically... The forces of Good and evil are arrayed against each other pretty clearly now... The natural divisions of the western church that united under the banner of the Constitution of limited government have been exploited in their divisions and individual rights are being assaulted by group-think mass hysteria, and the times are as interesting as is torture unto death...

Individual Rights, you see, as the foundation of the US, is breaking down, and is now disintegrating into the identity politics of "group rights" of various denominations... Individual Rights is itself a secular notion, as is identity politics, and itself devolves into family and corporate competing groups and the powers of talent arising therein... You see, the Christianity of the West is itself this great competition of competing beliefs, which have been exploited by their division at the hands of oppressive rule...

Which is why Russia clings to the authoritarian rule of her quasi-Emperor (now-President Putin) who keeps to the Apostolic Faith of the Russian Orthodox Church as it has been emerging from 80 years of horrific persecutions under the Communist Atheists - Who does not permit divisive religious sects much entry into the Russian lands... Russia is not a religious theocracy, as Islam tries to be, nor is it a secular Government of individual rights, but is held more along the lines of the old Byzantine Empire, and with television and the internet, Putin maintains his popularity by having a lot of fact time with the Russian people discussing world and domestic matters... He is perceived by his peers as one of the very wise leaders of the world...

The reign of the Roman Empire in Constantinople was for a little over a thousand years under one Orthodox Faith...

One of the questions I marvel at is this: "How well will that Orthodox Faith be received in a country of individual rights such as we have in the US?" For it was born under the persecutions of an autocratic government in Jerusalem fleeing to Egypt, and established itself in the political power of the Roman Empire under Constantinople for a thousand years, was picked up and transferred in power to Russia, and fell to the Communists, and is now emerging in the US in freedom...

We will find out...

But there will be a remnant that will not bend their knee...


Arsenios
It's sad to see you think so narrowly in regards to Jesus church. It seems you cannot recognize God's Sovereign ordained will over the affairs of men.
 

Arsenios

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CONSTANTINOPLE-UKRAINIAN HIERARCH AWARDS FORMER CIA HEAD
FOR SUPPORTING PUSH FOR UKRAINIAN NATIONAL CHURCH


And here comes the CIA involvement from the beginnings with the heretical Ukrainian group:

It is a CIA operation, just as was the Gulf of Tonkin incident that got us into Vietnam...

http://orthochristian.com/117882.html

Kiev, December 13, 2018

Constantinople hierarch Philaret Denisenko, the head of the schismatic “Kiev Patriarchate” (KP) has shown his appreciation to another American governmental figure for his support of Ukraine’s national-ecclesiastical project of creating an autocephalous church.

Denisenko met with Jack Devine, the former Acting Director and Associate Director of the CIA, recently in Kiev. Devine, in town to promote his new book Good Hunting: An American Spymaster’s Story, expressed his admiration for the Ukrainian people who support the idea of obtaining a tomos of autocephaly from Constantinople.

He also praised Denisenko’s 30-year struggle for autocephaly and his defense of the rights of Christians before the godless communist authorities.

In turn, Denisenko thanked Devine for the US’s help and support for Ukraine in its bid to create an autocephalous Church, unconnected to the Russian Orthodox Church, and, at the recommendation of board members of the Ukraine-21st Century Foundation, Denisenko awarded Devine with the Order of St. Andrew.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has routinely talked about the autocephaly project in terms of national identity and security. For example, he wrote on his Facebook page on December 10 that the long-awaited tomos is part of a political strategy to break with Ukraine’s colonial past “and a reorientation towards Europe.”

In his talk given to the Atlantic Council in September, Denisenko also focused almost exclusively on politics, painting autocephaly as a means of overcoming Russian President Putin.

Denisenko and the Ukrainian state have made no secret of their practice of currying favor with American politicians. The KP head met with former Vice President Joe Biden in September, thanking him for his long-term support for Ukraine and awarding him the Order of the Holy Equal-to-the-Apostles Prince Vladimir the Great, 2nd Degree.

Also in September, while speaking at the Atlantic Council event, Philaret expressed his thanks to America: “We thank the U.S. for supporting Patriarch Bartholomew’s intention to provide us with a tomos of autocephaly… We hope that the U.S. will help us bring our Church matter to an end.”

Philaret awarded Sen. John McCain the same St. Vladimir Order, 1st Degree in 2015, for his support of Ukraine during the events of Euromaidan and the “Russian occupation of Donbass and Crimea.”

Moreover, U.S. Ambassador at Large for International Religious Freedom Samuel D. Brownback met with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko in Kiev on September 11, expressing the same support for Ukraine’s battle against the Moscow Patriarchate.

In October, the head of the U.S. Department of State, Mike Pompeo, put out a statement on Friday expressing the U.S.’s support for the creation of an autocephalous Church in Ukraine.

Canada’s Conservative Party has also expressed its support for Patriarch Bartholomew and his actions in Canada.


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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It's sad to see you think so narrowly in regards to Jesus church. It seems you cannot recognize God's Sovereign ordained will over the affairs of men.


Thank-you for your prayers, Menno...


Arsenios
 
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