CRISIS IN ORTHODOXY - UKRANIAN AUTOCEPHALOY

[MoreCoffee]

Wikipedia says:

The history of Christianity in Ukraine dates back to the earliest centuries of the history of Christianity, to the Apostolic Age, when according to Radziwiłł Chronicle, the Apostle Saint Andrew ascended the hills of Kiev. It has remained the dominant religion in the country since its acceptance in 988 by Vladimir the Great (Volodymyr the Great), who brought it from Byzantine Crimea and instated it as the state religion of Kievan Rus' (Ruthenia), a medieval East Slavic state and establishment of the Ruthenian Orthodox Church with metropolitan see in Kiev.

Although separated into various Christian denominations, most Ukrainian Christians share a common faith based on the Eastern Christianity. This tradition is represented in Ukraine by the Byzantine Rite, the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, which have been at various historic times closely aligned with Ukrainian national self-identity and Byzantine culture.

Currently, two major Ukrainian Eastern Orthodox Churches coexist, and often compete, in the country: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) and the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. Additionally, a significant body of Christians belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church of the Catholic Church, and a smaller number are in the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church. While Western Christian traditions such as the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church and Protestantism have had a limited presence on the territory of Ukraine since at least the 16th century, worshipers of these traditions remain a relatively small minority in today's Ukraine.​

I presume that Orthodox Church of Ukraine is the one that has recently been declared self-governing. Is that right?

 

[MoreCoffee]

This was very helpful for me regarding the issue in Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-shO2Idjq8w

 

[Arsenios]

Orthodox Church
8 hours ago (edited)

His Holiness Orthodox Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia Cyril hes sent a letter to all Orthodox Patriarchs and Archbishop Primates of the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches of God, regarding Robber Synod in Kiev held by Constantinople and Ukrainian Nationalist Schismatics.
"It grieved us deeply that among those who took part in the gathering, hostile towards the Church, were representatives of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, thus disregarding the sacred canons and violating ecclesiastical rules, Metropolitan Emmanuel of France presided at the council of the schismatics, having at his right hand Mr. Poroshenko who had taken communion with the Greek Catholics (Self-Excommunication), and at his left hand excommunicated Filaret Denisenko and Makary Maletich who has no apostolic succession...

It is my firm conviction that what is being unfolded in Ukraine these days is not a conflict of interest between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Patriarchate of Constantinople, as some people are trying to present it, but something much more dangerous: a profound deviation of the Primate and hierarchs of the Most Holy Church of Constantinople from the Orthodox canonical tradition and patristic ecclesiology. The time is coming when it becomes impossible to keep silence, for what is going on in our plain view is posing a challenge to the entire Orthodox world. There is no doubt that the Ukrainian scenario can be enacted in future with regard to any other Local Church.
I call upon you and the plenitude of your Most Holy Church not to recognize the newly established pseudo-church structure and not to enter into communion with it.
I ask for your holy prayers for the persecuted Ukrainian Orthodox Church, for our suffering brothers and sisters subjected to abuse and humiliation for their faithfulness to the Holy Orthodoxy,” with these words His Holiness Patriarch Kirill addressed the Primates of the Local Churches in conclusion of his letters."

Full letter context read here - https://mospat.ru/en/2018/12/20/news1...
__________________________________

So the Russian Patriarch is calling on all to not recognize the non-canonical insertion of the EP's new Churches in the Ukraine...

And to withdraw from Communion with the EP...

As is meet and right...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

From the Russian Patriarch's letter:

It is my firm conviction that what is being unfolded in Ukraine these days
is not a conflict of interest
between the Moscow Patriarchate
and the Patriarchate of Constantinople,
as some people are trying to present it,
but something much more dangerous:
A profound deviation of the Primate and hierarchs
of the Most Holy Church of Constantinople
from the Orthodox canonical tradition
and patristic ecclesiology.

This, in a word, is the reason it is such a crisis...
One would expect better from the Ecumenical Patriarch...


Arsenios

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Doesn't the apostle Paul say in his letter to the Romans that people should obey their leaders because the leaders wouldn't have authority if God hadn't wanted them to have authority? So, what is the Patriarch doing wrong? He's obeying The Bible.

 

[psalms 91]

We must remember also that some leaders are in place to bring about prophecy whether that be good or bad.

 

[MennoSota]

Doesn't the apostle Paul say in his letter to the Romans that people should obey their leaders because the leaders wouldn't have authority if God hadn't wanted them to have authority? So, what is the Patriarch doing wrong? He's obeying The Bible.

Well...your interpretation is the same one atheist countries like China use against Christians. Like China, you are misunderstanding what Paul said.
Romans 13
1Let every person*be subject to the governing authorities. For*there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.*2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.*3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you*will receive his approval,*4for*he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God,*an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.*5Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also*for the sake of conscience.*6For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.*7Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Fulfilling the Law Through Love

8Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for*the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.*9For the commandments,*“You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word:*“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”*10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore*love is the fulfilling of the law.

11Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you*to wake from sleep.*For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.*12The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us*cast off*the works of darkness and*put on the armor of light.*13Let us walk properly as in the daytime,*not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality,*not in quarreling and jealousy.*14But*put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh,*to gratify its desires.

 

[Arsenios]

Below you will find the manner of disagreement in the Orthodox Faith
One Patriarch to another
On an important matter...

“IT IS NOT TOO LATE TO STOP”

A Sorrowful Reply to Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Anti-Canonical Actions in Ukraine
His Holiness Patriarch Kirill

It was with a feeling of great pain, astonishment and indignation
that I read your letter in which you informed me
of the recent actions of the Church of Constantinople:
of admitting to communion the uncanonical communities in Ukraine;
of “revoking” the Letter of Patriarch Dionysius IV of Constantinople
which had transferred the Kievan Metropolia to the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate;
of organizing in Kiev a “local council” of the uncanonical communities admitted to communion by you;
and of intending to give in the next few days the status of an autocephalous Orthodox Church
to the institution that you have established.

The reunification of the schismatics with the Church would have been a great joy
both for Orthodox Christians in Ukraine and for the whole Orthodox world
had it occurred in compliance with the rules of canon law,
in the spirit of peace and love of Christ.

However, the current politicized process of coercive unification
is far from the norms and spirit of the holy canons.
A great amount of lies has been piled up,
and now violence is being inflicted on the true Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
This is the same Church of millions of the Ukrainian faithful
that you recognized as canonical all the years of your ministry,
until very recently.
And now you pretend that it does not exist,
that there are only some separate dioceses
which have returned under your omophorion.

Your advisers assured you that the episcopate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
was ready to endorse the political project of the Kievan authorities,
that a considerable number, dozens of the canonical bishops
were only waiting for your blessing to secede from their Church.
I repeatedly warned you that you were being misled.
Now you can see it for yourself.
Only two out of ninety bishops of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
were present at the so-called “local council”
convened by you and chaired by a group of three people –
your representative,
a self-styled “patriarch” (who now has the title “honorary”),
and the secular head of the Ukrainian state.

What you call a “local council” was a gathering of schismatics
who used the name of the holy Church of Constantinople as a guise.
If this is not a legalization of the Ukrainian schism
that you publicly promised to prevent,
then what is it?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The Serbian Patriarch has condemned the action in the Ukraine of the Ecumenical Patriarch:

CHAUVINISTS, POLITICIANS, UNIATES, AND CONSTANTINOPLE SPREAD SCHISM IN UKRAINE,
SAYS SERBIAN CHURCH (+ VIDEO)

Belgrade, January 3, 2019

http://orthochristian.com/118400.html


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This was very helpful for me regarding the issue in Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-shO2Idjq8w

It gives a secular account of an Ekklesiastic conflict...

This is not a merely historical or political or cultural disaster...

Such matters are superficial to the underlying issue...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

The Serbian Patriarch has condemned the action in the Ukraine of the Ecumenical Patriarch:

CHAUVINISTS, POLITICIANS, UNIATES, AND CONSTANTINOPLE SPREAD SCHISM IN UKRAINE,
SAYS SERBIAN CHURCH (+ VIDEO)

Belgrade, January 3, 2019

http://orthochristian.com/118400.html


Arsenios

It's interesting how the alliances and maneuverings between nations have not changed much since before World War I.

 

[Arsenios]

It's interesting how the alliances and maneuverings between nations have not changed much since before World War I.

This is an open letter between two Ekklesiarchs, where one has overstepped and the other is rebuking him...

This is how the Church responds to bad behavior by an Ekklesiarch...

You will find more Ekklesiarchs doing much the same...

All praying for the E/P to turn away from his foolishness...


If the nations follow, even historically, it is theirs to do, or not...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

This is an open letter between two Ekklesiarchs, where one has overstepped and the other is rebuking him...

This is how the Church responds to bad behavior by an Ekklesiarch...

You will find more Ekklesiarchs doing much the same...

Post their statements if you wish. I was simply noting that it would be like a child refusing ice cream if the SERBIANS, being lackeys of the Russians, did not automatically fall into line as usual.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is an open letter between two Ekklesiarchs,

being an "open letter" it is clearly not between two men but rather the whole world who bother to read it. It is in itself playing the political game. A part of the political posturing and manoeuvring between Russia and Ukraine.

where one has overstepped and the other is rebuking him...

This is how the Church responds to bad behavior by an Ekklesiarch...

You will find more Ekklesiarchs doing much the same...

All praying for the E/P to turn away from his foolishness...


If the nations follow, even historically, it is theirs to do, or not...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

being an "open letter" it is clearly not between two men but rather the whole world who bother to read it.
It is in itself playing the political game.
A part of the political posturing and manoeuvring between Russia and Ukraine.

Then you do not know the difference...

There are often political implications to Ekklesiastical issues...

Which is why the US State Department recruited the EP

That does not make Ekklesiastical issues into political posturings...

Perhaps you are simply not accustomed to how Ekklesiastical transgressions are approached and resolved...

The whole Church is the determiner, not just one Ekklesiastic body...

This is the catholic way of conflict resolution...

The conciliar approach...

Not rigidly hierarchical...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The Bishops’ Council of the Serbian Orthodox Church, which last met on November 6-7 in Belgrade,
officially rejected the Patriarchate of Constantinople’s decisions of October 11,
including the rehabilitation of the Ukrainian schismatics without repentance,
and called on Constantinople to address the issue of granting autocephaly at a pan-Orthodox council.


A joint statement between His Beatitude Patriarch John X of Antioch and Pat. Irinej
signed in late October also called for a pan-Orthodox Council
to deal with the Ukraine issue on a conciliar,
rather than unilateral, basis.

In late May, Pat. Irinej denounced the Ukrainian schismatics
and anyone who helps them
as enemies of all Slavic Orthodox peoples
and of the entire Orthodox world,
for which he was branded as an “enemy of Ukraine”
by a Ukrainian government-backed website.


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then you do not know the difference...

There are often political implications to Ekklesiastical issues...

Which is why the US State Department recruited the EP

That does not make Ekklesiastical issues into political posturings...

Perhaps you are simply not accustomed to how Ekklesiastical transgressions are approached and resolved...

The whole Church is the determiner, not just one Ekklesiastic body...

This is the catholic way of conflict resolution...

The conciliar approach...

Not rigidly hierarchical...


Arsenios

In the Catholic Church it is one body that resolves conflicts - when they arise - within the Church without writing too many "open letters" to the whole world.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Bishops’ Council of the Serbian Orthodox Church, which last met on November 6-7 in Belgrade,
officially rejected the Patriarchate of Constantinople’s decisions of October 11,
including the rehabilitation of the Ukrainian schismatics without repentance,
and called on Constantinople to address the issue of granting autocephaly at a pan-Orthodox council.


A joint statement between His Beatitude Patriarch John X of Antioch and Pat. Irinej
signed in late October also called for a pan-Orthodox Council
to deal with the Ukraine issue on a conciliar,
rather than unilateral, basis.

In late May, Pat. Irinej denounced the Ukrainian schismatics
and anyone who helps them
as enemies of all Slavic Orthodox peoples
and of the entire Orthodox world,
for which he was branded as an “enemy of Ukraine”
by a Ukrainian government-backed website.


Arsenios

A pan orthodox council ... certainly not an oecumenical council.

 

[Arsenios]

A pan orthodox council ... certainly not an oecumenical council.

It is a start...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

In the Catholic Church it is one body that resolves conflicts - when they arise - within the Church without writing too many "open letters" to the whole world.

Open letters are the canary in the mine...

We are conciliar...

No autocratic dictators over Christ's Body...

Christ Himself is the Head of His Body, the Church...


Arsenios