"Catholic Answers" Why Did Luther's Heresy Persist?

[Romanos]

Yes, I am registered here. I haven't logged in for quite a while (the mention popped up in my email). IIRC it was pretty dead when I registered.

I'm happy to say that I recognize lots of folks in this thread.

ETA: I thought the post would be quoted. I was mentioned as being another Eastern Orthodox (which I am).

Welcome back, we would love to see you stay around and enjoy the discussions!

 

[Cassia]

Anastasia from ChristianForums Traditional Theology?

Yes, she is the same Kellisa just as I was MaidinHisImage. Funny what filters thru lol.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yes, I am registered here. I haven't logged in for quite a while (the mention popped up in my email). IIRC it was pretty dead when I registered.

I'm happy to say that I recognize lots of folks in this thread.

ETA: I thought the post would be quoted. I was mentioned as being another Eastern Orthodox (which I am).

Haven't seen you in a while. Welcome back

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, I am registered here. I haven't logged in for quite a while (the mention popped up in my email). IIRC it was pretty dead when I registered.

I'm happy to say that I recognize lots of folks in this thread.

ETA: I thought the post would be quoted. I was mentioned as being another Eastern Orthodox (which I am).

Hey, A!!! The other A! Good to see you again...

There is a kind of fraternal recognition from the net...

We do remember each other...

We do care...

We are not just Mr and Mrs and Ms No-Names, hiding in our anonymity, working with false names, and taking cheap shots at other posters from our self-imposed darkness of hiding and inflicting evils... The big deal about the internet is this anynonymous feature, where nobody is anybody, and everybody feels safe thereby to behave badly and spew poison, and this makes it an impersonal kind of demonic theater... Where children play with inanimate objects and with each other the same way... Many of our parents turned us over to technology to be raised by televisions and the internet and other inanimate objects when what we needed was a mother and a father...

But no medium has to be that way...

War itself does not have to be that way...

Anyhow, Anastasia, it is wonderful to see you here...

With more Orthodox Christians here, maybe we could start a thread on what Salvation is from the perspective of the Ancient Faith in which we take Communion... Not to change anyone's mind, but to give witness to the Truth in Whom we live and breathe... We do have a fair number of anonymous and thereby embolded posters here, but that just makes them a little more challenging to befriend...

Enoughalready!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Then, why don't you act accordingly?
The priest you CLAIM you agree with
says there is no position of the EOC on this matter....
so if your CLAIM was correct,
then you'd have nothing to say on this topic.

So what do you think?
Should I just sit back down,
and cringe,
and shut my mouth
and be silent
and not say a word
because the Orthodox Church is not a party
to this problem you have with the Latin Church?
And because it addresses
an issue that to us
would be anathema
should it arise?

Or is this perhaps a Christian discussion forum, Josiah?
Where we can discuss whatever issues we may find ourselves in?

I mean, do you want to discuss the issues,
or should I just shut up
so you can express yourself without distractions?

Your choice...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I do NOT agree with the foundation of your soteriology
that the Greek word "kai" mandates chronological sequence ...

And obviously you have this "Call.... justification... glorification" thing as a chronological sequence
.

Josiah - You can remove the word "kai" from the pericope and it still mandates sequence...

("Kai" in this text means "also"...)

(Pronounced "key" as in "lock and...")

You cannot Call the Foreknown without Foreknowing them first...
You cannot Justify the Called without Calling them first...
You cannot Glorify the Justified without first Justifying them...

If YOU can do so, I am all ears...

Or do you mean they are all done simultaneously, perhaps???
So that the Foreknown are already Glorified maybe??
They just don't know it yet?


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Josiah - You can remove the word "kai" from the pericope and it still mandates sequence...

("Kai" in this text means "also"...)

Correct. There goes your whole insistence on chronological sequence.... that FIRST the dead, fallen, atheistic enemy of God must "hear" the Call of God.... must respond in faith.... must repent and must turn to God BEFORE God does a thing, before the Holy Spirit does anything whatsoever... BEFORE the coming of life, BEFORE the coming of the Holy Spirit, BEFORE their is any faith in God or Christ or the Cross or mercy or forgiveness... that it's all up to a series of good works the fallen, lifeless, atheist, enemy of God does ALL ON HIS OWN (God just thus being obligated to reward such accordingly).

If YOU can do so, I am all ears...

God says we cannot. And that's my position, that Jesus is the Savior and Jesus does the saving - not the fallen, lifeless, atheistic enemy of God all by himself. My posiition is that its the "free gift of God" and "not because of works"




.

 

[Arsenios]

Correct. There goes your whole insistence on chronological sequence.... that FIRST the dead, fallen, atheistic enemy of God must "hear" the Call of God.... must respond in faith.... must repent and must turn to God BEFORE God does a thing, before the Holy Spirit does anything whatsoever... BEFORE the coming of life, BEFORE the coming of the Holy Spirit, BEFORE their is any faith in God or Christ or the Cross or mercy or forgiveness... that it's all up to a series of good works the fallen, lifeless, atheist, enemy of God does ALL ON HIS OWN (God just thus being obligated to reward such accordingly).





God says we cannot. And that's my position, that Jesus is the Savior and Jesus does the saving - not the fallen, lifeless, atheistic enemy of God all by himself. My posiition is that its the "free gift of God" and "not because of works"




.

Good - Then you agree that sequence is mandated - Foreknowing before Calling, then Justification, then Glorification...

I thought you were insisting that sequencing is not mandated because "kai" does not mandate sequencing...

That IS what you wrote...


So now, then, is ANY man born with NO TALENT(s)? (vis a vis the Parable of the Talents)

Then why or why not in Biblical instruction...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good - Then you agree that sequence is mandated - Foreknowing before Calling, then Justification, then Glorification...

I thought you were insisting that sequencing is not mandated because "kai" does not mandate sequencing...

That IS what you wrote...


So now, then, is ANY man born with NO TALENT(s)? (vis a vis the Parable of the Talents)

Then why or why not in Biblical instruction...


Arsenios

You and your interlocutor (@Josiah) appear to have strayed a good distance away from the topic of the thread.

And since the list of 41 heresies that Catholics contemporary with Martin Luther changed against Luther was given nobody seems very interested in the topic of Luther's heresy (or heresies) any more.

What was the point of this dismal thread if not to discover what heresy Martin Luther was charged with?

 

[pinacled]

Since I am the only EOC here, I can answer that on Catholic Answers Forum, I was banned, along with a group of a dozen of so EOC'ers who were successfully converting Eastern Rite Catholics to the EOC, and we were not sparing the Truth... That forum, like any forum, had its denominational bullies - Just as we do here - And they did not fare well against the Orthodox contingent there, which included some fairly serious historians of Church affairs...

Yet I did not come here to attack the RCC via MC... As a Greek son of a Greek Priest told me, there is nothing wrong with Catholics - They just have a mistaken dogmatic theology - eg Their PRAXIS of the Faith at its general parish level is fine... At the more serious monastic levels, it varies a great deal, but tends toward social services, whereas for the Orthodox monastics, the focus is the person's relationship alone with God - Which is what the "Mona-" of Monasticism means...

And besides, MC is a noble soul, and outnumbered vastly on this site, beset on all sides, and slandered heavily - And i do say slandered... Spoken ill of, whether truthful or a lie, is slander... Kindness is not the stock-in-trade of many forums... So I decided to stand with him inasmuch as I could, and I think I did OK... He is a very decent person and his treatment here was rather shabby, in my not so reverent opinion, mind you! And so I decided to stand by him where no one else seemed to care for his soul...



And they are being addressed (or not) by the Churches, and will not be all that resolved by the masses... These are ekklesiastical matters of dogma, and they will end up being resolved by Councils, in the Power of the Holy Spirit, or not...



Revelation clearly shows that Christ-God is the Head of the Church-Militant...



Their unity centers around their understanding of Papal authority...
Just as Protestant unity centers around the Bible...
Orthodox unity centers around Church Dogma and Communion...



The discipline imposed by Orthodoxy is Communion and its being granted or withdrawn, when a Church heads out of or into heresy... And Councils are called to address these kinds of issues...

Dogma seems studiously avoided in Protestant Churches...



They have historically regarded themselves as T.H.E. Church - Meaning that Communion with them defines the boundary or skin of Christ's Church on earth... And the problem with Protestants is that this is exactly how Protestantism also understands them... So that they reject the "High Ekklesiology" of inter-Communion that defines the Church on earth... Instead, it has devolved into a kind of Bible-Believerism... If you believe in the Bible, you are a Christian, in this view...

Yet it cannot be denied that the Reformation is the child of the RCC, and the illegitimate child as well... In fact, one of the problems with the Latin Church is that She does not really have any children who have been legitimately birthed and grown to maturity in autocephaly, wherein they can withdraw Communion from Rome as a disciplinary matter against Rome...




Arsenios

Before you make the same crucial mistake more coffee made while mocking a gift.
I suggest sincerity is the best form of communication.

Greek and Latin are not something to boast about. And certainly not a language to consider honorable in the course of wind.

The Name of the Lord was not given in these languages, nor were the faithful washed in such.

Blessed be he that comes in the Name.

 

[Albion]

You and your interlocutor (@Josiah) appear to have strayed a good distance away from the topic of the thread.

And since the list of 41 heresies that Catholics contemporary with Martin Luther changed against Luther was given nobody seems very interested in the topic of Luther's heresy (or heresies) any more.

You mean the list that came with no references, no names of the supposed authors, no dates, no links to websites or publications that could verify that this list which you alternately referred to as *errors* or as *heresies,* although the two are not nearly the same thing, was in fact genuine.

That list. It was dead on arrival.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

You mean the list that came with no references, no name(s) of the supposed author(s), no dates, no link(s) to website(s) or publications that could verify that this list which you alternately referred to as *errors* or as *heresies,* although the two are not nearly the same thing, was in fact genuine.

That list. It was dead on arrival.

These have been provided for you. Your objection, then, is also DOA

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Had you read post #63 you would have seen the author, the approximate date and an allusion to the document.

"The list of heresies that the pope in Luther's day gave is this."

The document was previously mentioned by name as Exsurge Domine in post #51

"The list of 50 points was captured (by myself) from a web page that is very long and written by somebody who took the time to draw up a list. I can't recall if they were for or against Martin Luther's errors. All I wanted to do it make a list available for the sake of discussion. I do not expect it will receive fair treatment nor would the 41 errors in Exsurge Domine which, by the way, I reproduced in English in a thread here in CH
some months ago only to have it ignored even through it was requested.

There is very little likelihood that any facts will be dealt with in a discussion here. The reason for these threads is to give a soap box from which a chap can announce his/her own views without hearing anybody else's."​

As a memory refresher.

'Google' + "Exsurge Domine" = Source

 

[Albion]

These have been provided for you. Your objection, then, is also DOA

These have not been provided.

But if they had been, they still would not prove your contention since some of the items are clearly not heresies! So do you not know what a heresy is...or is the list simply a list of charges issued by various Papists of Luthers time in an attempt to frame him??






.

 

[Josiah]

Good - Then you agree that sequence is mandated - Foreknowing before Calling, then Justification, then Glorification...

I thought you were insisting that sequencing is not mandated because "kai" does not mandate sequencing...

That IS what you wrote...


So now, then, is ANY man born with NO TALENT(s)? (vis a vis the Parable of the Talents)

Then why or why not in Biblical instruction...


Arsenios

The Parable of Talents is not a doctrine on justification....


Correct, the word "kai" does NOT mandate (or even necessarily imply) chronological sequence.... thus your whole premise is baseless.


No, the issue is WHO calls whom? WHO gives life to whom? WHO justifies whom? Who glorifies whom? MY position (which you have been debating and arguing against for 8 months now in MANY, MANY posts) is that Jesus is the Savior and does the saving/justifying, that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life. The dead, fallen, lifeless, sinful, enemy of God does not do these for self.



.

 

[Josiah]

The list of heresies that the pope in Luther's day gave is this.

1. Catholic Answers says there was ONE heresy.... it specifically and repeatedly speaks of "THE heresy" (singular). You are simply working hard to avoid the obvious: in this video (and in so much the premier Catholic apologetics ministry produced) evades saying what that heresy is. I asked why....


2. You repeat this absurd list of 41. Evidently unaware that 41 is not 1. And of course, most of them aren't heresies at all.


3. You never gave the credit for this list..... only that some person you choose to not identify posted these 41 things on some website you won't identify.... evidently with the apologetic rule that if some unknown person posts entirely unsubstantiated stuff on some unidentified website, ERGO it is dogmatic truth and is the position of the premier Catholic apologetics ministry of Catholic Answers.




.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

These have not been provided.

But if they had been, they still would not prove your contention since some of the items are clearly not heresies! So do you not know what a heresy is...or is the list simply a list of charges issued by various Papists of Luthers time in an attempt to frame him??.

Exsurge Domine
Condemning the Errors of Martin Luther
Pope Leo X - 1520​

Generally, (from the source) the list of statements is described this way by the Pope:

...(A)las, we have even seen with our eyes and read the many diverse errors. Some of these have already been condemned by councils and the constitutions of our predecessors, and expressly contain even the heresy of the Greeks and Bohemians. Other errors are either heretical, false, scandalous, or offensive to pious ears, as seductive of simple minds, originating with false exponents of the faith who in their proud curiosity yearn for the world’s glory, and contrary to the Apostle’s teaching, wish to be wiser than they should be.

So, granted, they are not all described as "heresies" and it isn't clear which would be

 

[Albion]

So, granted, they are not all described as "heresies" and it isn't clear which would be

OK, so what would be the point of the "list" except to blow smoke?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

For the thread purposes, maybe. But it does go to Josiah's point that the RCC (and Catholic Answers) charge of "Luther's Heresy" really doesn't hold much water. I don't think that MC was purposefully being evasive or obtuse, however. Sometimes I think we assign an ulterior motive to a thread or post where there isn't any

 

[Albion]

For the thread purposes, maybe. But it does go to Josiah's point that the RCC (and Catholic Answers) charge of "Luther's Heresy" really doesn't hold much water.

That's probably correct to say, but it doesn't justify the creation of a bogus list of alleged claims of heresy in which most items would not be heresies regardless of whom we were discussing.