Salvation - Part 2

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee wrote:
"Amen, such a man is saved by grace though faith despite his life on Earth that was cut short by a deadly heart attack. Such a situation is, praise God, rather exceptional. The vast majority of those who are given grace and receive faith, exercising their faith in Jesus Christ, live productive lives that bear fruit for the Kingdom of God and accomplish the good works that God created the faithful to do."​

So you believe in 2 different methods of salvation? Some have salvation by grace through faith alone? Others might have salvation by grace through faith and works adding to it?

Your reply is one reason why there will be many more posts than is necessary in a thread about Salvation ...

 

[MennoSota]

Brother Arsenios wrote But we are saved BY Grace THROUGH obedience to the Gospel. and you respond with There is no grace in your statement. Your statement is absurd.

The gospel means "good news." There is no good news if you preach salvation by works, which is what Arsenios preaches. MC...that message is not the Gospel.

 

[MennoSota]

Ya gotta walk the talk, Menno...

You no walka da talka you no gotta da Grace...

God's Grace is a Gift because it CANNOT BE EARNED...

I mean, how ya gonna EARN GOD???


Arsenios

Arsenios wrote:

But we are saved BY Grace THROUGH obedience to the Gospel...

Is God too weak to establish His gift of faith in us so that we do the good works He has ordained us to do?
You always add something to the Gospel of Grace. Thus you nullify the Gospel of Grace. Simply say: "We are saved by Grace." That is sufficient...more than sufficient.
Yet you keep making it less than sufficient. You keep saying that you must help God out...as though he was too weak to save without your assistance or without the added condition of your help.
Arsenios...God doesn't need your help. Your salvation is not predicated upon you and your works.

 

[Lamb]

Yet you keep making it less than sufficient. You keep saying that you must help God out...as though he was

This is exactly what MC and Arsenios are saying! Yet they insist on imposing themselves in their salvation of which they are even uncertain of obtaining. Then they mock those who are confident entirely in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[Arsenios]

So you believe in 2 different methods of salvation? Some have salvation by grace through faith alone? Others might have salvation by grace through faith and works adding to it?

That is Biblical - The Jews had Salvation by faith alone, because they were already prepared under the Law... Only a remnant received this Salvation, and many of them still thought that the Law was needed and they formed up into the "Circumcision Parties" that Paul led the charge against... The Gentiles, however, being totally unprepared by the Law, needed preparation provided by the Apostles in the discipling of the Church, which disciples the Faith of Christ, to which they had to conform themselves willingly... In those early years, this preparation by practice and education, which led to Baptism, took normally some three years of living and learning the Way of Christ, in order to acquire the Christian Life by learning and doing it... Only then, when one's Presbyter gave the OK, was the Catechumen Baptized into Christ, and could then attend the rest of the Services... Baptism is understood as one's birthday as a New Creation...

To consecrate one's life in repentance for three years is an action of great faith, and is done in obedience to the Call of God unto Repentance from sin and the acquisition of entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, Which is Baptism into our Lord's very Body, wherein we become members of that Body, eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood...

There is a Scripture that uses both BY faith and THROUGH faith regarding Jews and Gentiles respectively and Salvation...

Here it is: Rom 3:30
Since indeed One (is) the God,
Who shall Justify (the) Circumcision out of faith,
and
(the) Uncircumcision through the Faith.

The Jews simply had to believe, but the Gentiles needed discipling by the Apostles...
There is no article before faith for the Jews, the people prepared by God...
There IS an article, THE, before Faith for the Gentiles...

Hence the two methods are either BY faith - eg by believing - for the Jews, or else THROUGH the Faith Christ discipled to His Apostles in which He commanded them to disciple ALL the Nations...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

This is exactly what MC and Arsenios are saying! Yet they insist on imposing themselves in their salvation of which they are even uncertain of obtaining. Then they mock those who are confident entirely in Jesus Christ for salvation.

The bottom line to all of this seems to me to be that there are two sides--the same two which have existed since the Reformation--God and Man each doing something earns us salvation versus God alone is responsible.

But the confusion or contentiousness is the result of the first group insisting that they, too, believe that our salvation comes from God. Apparently they do not want to be understood as minimizing Gods graciousness in the face of the other sides stance. But because they do argue that Mans works are essential and meritorious, the contradiction has to be explained away somehow, and this is accomplished by use of impassioned denials along with evasive wording that can be defended as being supportive of either of the opposing POVs, depending on the need of the moment.

 

[Arsenios]

So you believe in 2 different methods of salvation? Some have salvation by grace through faith alone? Others might have salvation by grace through faith and works adding to it?

The works are not added to one's Salvation - The initial works of repentance are a matter of preparation in order that one be discipled as Christ discipled His Disciples... They are discipled to OBSERVE all that Christ commanded the Apostles - That means living and doing the WAY of Christian Life, and be given the means to "count the cost" of the real battles that come AFTER one's entry by Baptism into the Kingdom of Heaven, the Body of Christ...

As Orthodox Christians often like to say, it is AFTER Baptism that all hell breaks loose... Goliath did not have to be overcome by David until AFTER he crossed the Jordan River INTO the Promised Land... And this is the Type of the Life in Christ to follow... An undiscipled Baptism is a wretched affair... You have to have basic training, then advanced training, to fight in a war... Without training, you just get killed, and the killing becomes your training... Nothing really prepares you for the actual combat, but in crisis, training takes over, and one can still function and prevail... David was VERY prepared for Goliath... I loved His indignance...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

There is one way of salvation and it is by grace through faith for the purpose of doing the good works that God creates the faithful to do (Eph 2:8-10).

'


.... "we are not saved by works but for works" But of course, that's not the debate, is it? For 500 years, Catholics and Protestants have STRESSED our agreement on that. What is at debate here is the protests of 2 or 3 non-Protestants to the Protestant view that Jesus is the Savior, that it is JESUS who saves. When we post that, you and 1 or 2 others protest and debate and argue that - on and on and on and on and on, for hundreds of posts, sometimes hundreds of pages of posts, making it obvious you have enormous, foundational problems with what the Protestant proclaims at that point.


Please note the obvious, ,,

What everyone notes (and has since you came here). It's NEVER a case of "You are absolutely right! Jesus is the Savior! It's Jesus alone who does the saving! We are saved by what GOD wills and does!" Because, of course, that would end the thread (probably having no more than 2 or 3 posts). Nope. You argue against that - perpetually, persistently (as does your denomination - remember, it's why it split itself 500 years ago).

AND it's NEVER a case of "Yes! Amen! Soli Deo Gloria! AND let's remember the point Luther and Calvin stressed so much, God saves us not just for heaven but also for good works!" A good point, but again, one no Christian disagrees with, a point Catholics and Protestants have fully agreed upon for 500 years. Posting that would just get an "agreed" and thread is done.

AND it's not a case of "Yes! Amen! Soli Deo Gloria!" AND let's remember the point that Luther taught and all but a tiny number of radical Calvinists hold, that the gift of faith can be lost." Nope. Because that too would just get a "of course" and the thread would end. Maybe 5 posts max.

It's a case of 2 or 3 non-Protestants going on and on and on and on arguing against the statement: Jesus is the Savior, Jesus does the saving.

Now Arsenios suddenly argues he's not debating THAT but HOW God accomplishes the giving of these gifts - but actually, he never discusses the HOW at all, just insists on things that makes everything depend on the will and works of fallen man... why fallen man saves himself.




.

 

[Josiah]

The works are not added to one's Salvation - The initial works of repentance are a matter of preparation

Correct. You make the will and works of the fallen man the reason and cause of salvation (so much for Jesus, grace, mercy, the Incarnation, the Cross, the Resurrection).... you insist the fallen, dead, enemy of God first WILLS and performs good works (repentance in particular) and then God is just and right and rewards the fallen dead atheist with salvation. The Bible boldly states that it's NOT (the key word being NOT) because of the will or works of fallen man... you make it the absolute key and foundation and cause and reason.... nothing happens, God indeed is impotent until the fallen man will and works - and thus causes his own salvation.

 

[Albion]

The works are not added to one's Salvation - The initial works of repentance are a matter of preparation in order that one be discipled as Christ discipled His Disciples... They are discipled to OBSERVE all that Christ commanded the Apostles - That means living and doing the WAY of Christian Life, and be given the means to "count the cost" of the real battles that come AFTER one's entry by Baptism into the Kingdom of Heaven, the Body of Christ...

Let's keep the focus on topic here--salvation--and what accounts for it in any individual's case. What is it that causes him to be saved?

 

[Arsenios]

The bottom line to all of this seems to me to be that there are two sides--the same two which have existed since the Reformation--God and Man each doing something earns us salvation versus God alone is responsible.

But the confusion or contentiousness is the result of the first group insisting that they, too, believe that our salvation comes from God. Apparently they do not want to be understood as minimizing Gods graciousness in the face of the other sides stance. But because they do argue that Mans works are essential and meritorious, the contradiction has to be explained away somehow, and this is accomplished by use of impassioned denials along with evasive wording that can be defended as being supportive of either of the opposing POVs, depending on the need of the moment.

The confusion comes because God is not alone, and it is man's WILL that CAUSED our FALL from LIFE in ADAM... That human will is the tip of the spear in this combat, and it must overcome self-will in order to efficaciously receive God's will... This in no way at all EARNS God's Will, but is instead the MEANS by which God has CHOSEN to EFFECT our Salvation...

I mean, He COULD have just gotten out the eraser and started over...
For millennials, He COULD have done the ctrl, alt, delete procedure...
He COULD have just fixed every human fallen soul from Adam on...
He could have restored Adam in the Garden...
He could have done a lot of things...
But He sent His Son to die for us that we should Live in Him...
IF we do not want Him, He will give us that desire...
He gave it to the Genessarenes, remember?
They loved pigs more than Christ and their own sanity...
They said: "Depart from us..."
And He did...

God wants us willingly to be His Brethren in Christ His Son...
Salvation is a struggle to the end...
You have injected merit into Salvation...
The Ancient Faith injects no such poison into God's Works in man...
We are only unworthy servants at best...
Our face in the dirt is our exaltation...
Meritorious Salvation in false on its oxymoronic face...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Let's keep the focus on topic here--salvation--and what accounts for it in any individual's case. What is it that causes him to be saved?

That is the focus - Without overcoming the enemy that wants to kill you, you will die in the battle...
And Salvation is salvation from death, which Christ overcame, and which we can overcome in Christ...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Correct. You make the will and works of the fallen man the reason and cause of salvation (so much for Jesus, grace, mercy, the Incarnation, the Cross, the Resurrection).... you insist the fallen, dead, enemy of God first WILLS and performs good works (repentance in particular) and then God is just and right and rewards the fallen dead atheist with salvation. The Bible boldly states that it's NOT (the key word being NOT) because of the will or works of fallen man... you make it the absolute key and foundation and cause and reason.... nothing happens, God indeed is impotent until the fallen man will and works - and thus causes his own salvation.

Psalm 116:13

I will take the cup of Salvation,
and call upon the Name of the LORD.


How about you?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The works are not added to one's Salvation - The initial works of repentance are a matter of preparation in order that one be discipled as Christ discipled His Disciples... They are discipled to OBSERVE all that Christ commanded the Apostles - That means living and doing the WAY of Christian Life, and be given the means to "count the cost" of the real battles that come AFTER one's entry by Baptism into the Kingdom of Heaven, the Body of Christ...

As Orthodox Christians often like to say, it is AFTER Baptism that all hell breaks loose... Goliath did not have to be overcome by David until AFTER he crossed the Jordan River INTO the Promised Land... And this is the Type of the Life in Christ to follow... An undiscipled Baptism is a wretched affair... You have to have basic training, then advanced training, to fight in a war... Without training, you just get killed, and the killing becomes your training... Nothing really prepares you for the actual combat, but in crisis, training takes over, and one can still function and prevail... David was VERY prepared for Goliath... I loved His indignance...


Arsenios

Wow! You have added so much that is not required for salvation. This is precisely why I have consistently pointed out that you are teaching a doctrine of works that is comparable to the Judaisers Paul condemns in his letter to the Galatians.
It saddens me to read your abortion of grace in order to cling to works.

 

[Albion]

The confusion comes because God is not alone

Not likely. And no one has said that he thinks God is alone in the universe. We all acknowledge that there are humans to be saved.

God is not alone, and it is man's WILL that CAUSED our FALL from LIFE in ADAM

Yes, Adam caused the Fall. But we are talking here about his descendants prospects of salvation. Adam does not bring about our salvation.

That human will is the tip of the spear in this combat, and it must overcome self-will in order to efficaciously receive God's will...

In other words, you are confirming that your view concerning salvation is that it is a cooperative effort between God and Man. That's what I said in the previous post.

 

[Albion]

That is the focus - Without overcoming the enemy that wants to kill you, you will die in the battle...

Arsenios

You will save yourself, in other words, or at least are partially responsible for it.

Why IS THERE any debate among us then? The opposing POVs are clearcut.

 

[Josiah]

The confusion comes because God is not alone, and it is man's WILL that CAUSED our FALL from LIFE in ADAM...

Your confusion comes when you confuse the cause of the FALL with the cause of SALVATION. Yes, man caused himself to fall..... but fallen man does not cause himself to be rescued. Yes, Christianity teaches that man has FALLEN but it also says he can't save himself and needs the divine Savior, and God has provided that. His name is Jesus. Your confusion comes when you make the leap that because the Fall was the result of what man willed and did, ERGO the Restoration MUST be the result of man's will and works.


If you make sin little and the Fall even less.... then yes, you can make man solve his own problem (perhaps with some divine help) and that is the position of most non-Christian religions (none of which need the Savior because none of which see a fallen man). In other religions, an uncaring God seats up in yonder places WAITING for sinful man to will and work. But Christianity is unique in that fallen man can't save himself (with help or otherwise) but must be saved.... and God, solely because of His mercy, has come down to us in the Person and work of Jesus, to save. Not inspire, not help.... save (Which is why Jesus is called the Savior). God doesn't wait until dead, fallen, enemies will and work - He comes to save. Luther: "If you see yourself as a little sinner, you will have a little Savior."


That's your confusion - placing fallen, dead man FIRST. I played Little League as a kid. And yes, sometimes some young boy (new to the game) would hit the ball and run to Third Base first! Of course, NOTHING he said or did after that made any difference. It's true in LOTS of things.... including Christianity. You keep TRYING to run to man first. TRYING to argue man is just a tiny bit feeling ill (no big problem) and he can save himself - by his willing and working - so you keep trying to run to man first. Fallen, dead, enemies of God (without the Holy Spirit, with a God just sitting up there in yonder places being patient.... waiting) for some unimaginable reason suddenly WILLING and WORKING.... and thus, God runs to him. You have man running to third base first, placing man at the beginning of all this, making fallen dead men the reason, the first-cause (when Scripture flatly states it is NOT because of the will and works of fallen man).

it is the MEANS by which God has CHOSEN to EFFECT our Salvation...

No. Jesus is.


Sola Gratia (not the will and works of fallen dead enemies of God)
Solus Christus (not self; Jesus is the Savior, Jesus saves)
Sola Fide (the free gift of faith is the means, not the dead fallen mans will and works)

Our will DOES change - but this is the RESULT of life, faith, the Holy Spirit. Now, you could have agreed with me the MANY times I've said there's clear mystery here.... we can't know how God works all this in His MIRACLE of justification, His MIRACLE of giving life.... but our will and works is not what causes or chooses or effects that life making self the Savior and Life Giver of self (no need for Jesus), that's flatly unchristian and unbiblical.





.

 

[Arsenios]

Not likely. And no one has said that he thinks God is alone in the universe. We all acknowledge that there are humans to be saved.


Yes, Adam caused the Fall. But we are talking here about his descendants prospects of salvation. Adam does not bring about our salvation.


In other words, you are confirming that your view concerning salvation is that it is a cooperative effort between God and Man. That's what I said in the previous post.

Yes - Salvation in Christ is not against our will, but requires, according to God's Will, that we exercise our fallen will unto God, and then He heals us... We do not contribute anything to the Salvation of God... Indeed, it is the very exercise of our will that LIMITS the amount of Grace we are able to receive...

As a for instance - IF God were to "Save" an unrepentant person, who insisted in keeping his evil way of life, he would not retain much of what God had given him... It would not stay with him... God would withdraw the Grace so squandered by that person... The seed would have fallen on the hard dry ground of the road and be eaten by the birds of the air...

Place the same seed in the rich moist earth of a person in deep repentance, and it will grow fruit an hundredfold...
The first has nothing in himself... The second has much...
One has prepared, as John the Baptist came to Prepare the Way of Christ...
The other has not, and retains nothinng...
5 virgins attained the Kingdom...
5 did not, but were sent out to buy oil...

Mat 13:5 ...because they had no deepness of earth:
YOURS is the responsibility to cultivate your own earth...
Without cultivation (repentance)
and rain (tears)
there is no growth of seed - (Reception of the Gospel unto Salvation)

You seem only able to understand the scattering of the Seed of the Sower...
You do not seem to underestand the preparation needed to GROW that Seed...
The Gospel is the Seed...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No one has said that he thinks God is alone in the universe.
We all acknowledge that there are humans to be saved.

You deny that man has a role.
You affirm that God alone does all the work...
You deny any human role...

Man had a role in the Fall...
Man has a role in the Resurrection...

That role is NOT the role of self-salvation...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Your confusion comes when you confuse the cause of the FALL with the cause of SALVATION. Yes, man caused himself to fall..... but fallen man does not cause himself to be rescued. Yes, Christianity teaches that man has FALLEN but it also says he can't save himself and needs the divine Savior, and God has provided that. His name is Jesus. Your confusion comes when you make the leap that because the Fall was the result of what man willed and did, ERGO the Restoration MUST be the result of man's will and works.


If you make sin little and the Fall even less.... then yes, you can make man solve his own problem (perhaps with some divine help) and that is the position of most non-Christian religions (none of which need the Savior because none of which see a fallen man). In other religions, an uncaring God seats up in yonder places WAITING for sinful man to will and work. But Christianity is unique in that fallen man can't save himself (with help or otherwise) but must be saved.... and God, solely because of His mercy, has come down to us in the Person and work of Jesus, to save. Not inspire, not help.... save (Which is why Jesus is called the Savior). God doesn't wait until dead, fallen, enemies will and work - He comes to save. Luther: "If you see yourself as a little sinner, you will have a little Savior."


That's your confusion - placing fallen, dead man FIRST. I played Little League as a kid. And yes, sometimes some young boy (new to the game) would hit the ball and run to Third Base first! Of course, NOTHING he said or did after that made any difference. It's true in LOTS of things.... including Christianity. You keep TRYING to run to man first. TRYING to argue man is just a tiny bit feeling ill (no big problem) and he can save himself - by his willing and working - so you keep trying to run to man first. Fallen, dead, enemies of God (without the Holy Spirit, with a God just sitting up there in yonder places being patient.... waiting) for some unimaginable reason suddenly WILLING and WORKING.... and thus, God runs to him. You have man running to third base first, placing man at the beginning of all this, making fallen dead men the reason, the first-cause (when Scripture flatly states it is NOT because of the will and works of fallen man).








No. Jesus is.


Sola Gratia (not the will and works of fallen dead enemies of God)
Solus Christus (not self; Jesus is the Savior, Jesus saves)
Sola Fide (the free gift of faith is the means, not the dead fallen mans will and works)

Our will DOES change - but this is the RESULT of life, faith, the Holy Spirit. Now, you could have agreed with me the MANY times I've said there's clear mystery here.... we can't know how God works all this in His MIRACLE of justification, His MIRACLE of giving life.... but our will and works is not what causes or chooses or effects that life making self the Savior and Life Giver of self (no need for Jesus), that's flatly unchristian and unbiblical.

Psalm 116:13

I will take the cup of Salvation,
and call upon the Name of the LORD.


How about you?


Arsenios