Salvation - Part 2

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MennoSota

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No, I am saying that they do not contribute anything to the Gift God Gives [eg Salvation by Grace]

What they do effect is HOW MUCH of that Grace we can RETAIN...



With your undeerstanding, you have ruled out the possibility of a straight answer...

A straight answer is perceived by you as a crooked one...



I do that all the time, and am consistently understood by you as being evasive...

It is called trying to communicate from different phronemas - (Understandings)

The EOC is the most unchanged form of Christianity to have made it into the 21st Century...

We are the Ancient Faith...

The Latins sometimes call us the "Primitive Faith" of Christ...

But we know better!

I would call us the "Primal Faith of Christ" I say!

Arsenios
A form of legalism similar to the Judaisers Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians.
I wish you would let God's grace be sufficient for you. Unfortunately, you view your self as powerful enough to run from God so that he cannot find you. This is sad.
 

Albion

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"The faithful" is used in exactly the same sense in which "the saints" and "the body of Christ" and "the Way" is used in holy scripture; it means nothing more or less than "the people of God". Your statement in the quote above is absolutely untrue and remarkably stupid.

I can tell the difference between an adjective and a noun, however.









.
 
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MennoSota

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Josiah has repeatedly boasted of Jesus as Savior and nothing of himself. That is not pride. He is humble.
Long winded and a copy/paste extraordinare, but humble...
 

MoreCoffee

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I can tell the difference between an adjective and a noun, however.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus.


and to the faithful I. e. “the saints,” under a different aspect. For the word as used, of Christian believers, see Act 10:45 (“the faithful of the circumcision”); Act 16:1 (“a faithful Jewess”); 2Co 6:15 (“the faithful with the unfaithful,” i.e. the believer with the unbeliever); Col 1:2; 1Ti 4:3 (“them who are faithful and know, &c.), 1Ti 4:12 (“the faithful”), 1Ti 5:16 (“any faithful man or faithful woman”), 1Ti 6:2 (“faithful,” i.e. Christian, “masters”); Tit 1:6. These and similar passages, and the contrast of the word “unfaithful” (infidelis, infidel), show that as a designation of Christians it means not trustworthy but trustful; full of faith, in the Christian sense. On its application to the community, consider
saints Holy ones; persons possessed of holiness, separated from sin to God. It is true that this is “the language of charitable presumption”; when a community is thus described, St Paul does not thereby positively assert that each individual answers the description. But observe that this presumptive use of the word “saint” does not lower the true sense of the word, so as to make it properly mean, e. g., merely a member of a Christian community, a possessor of visible Church privileges.​

Hoping this may be useful for you as you think through the difference between a noun and an adjective.
 

MoreCoffee

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... that's the point... God's MERCY - not our merit, our will, our works, our worth.


We are mostly laity here, and I give a LOT of leeway for folks who just aren't very articulate in these matters. That's why I pay a LOT of attention to the whole corpus of what a poster conveys on a topic here (something the size of this site permits, yet another reason why I love it here). I pay attention to what they obviously disagree with (because of their posts against it) and to what their position is. <cut for brevity's sake>

Your perception and your spin on what you allege they (I think that you mean me, since I am the subject of most of the rest of what you say and that is cut for brevity's sake in the quote above) hold as their position but which is not in fact their position.

"their position" is that Jesus Christ is the saviour of sinners from their sins and their God in whom they trust who gives them eternal life out of the sheer goodness of his own self because he wanted to and not because they won it in a lottery, earned it for their work, inherited it from the wealth of their ancestors, or any other created being or reason whatever. Yet the Lord, Jesus Christ, saved them for the purpose of doing good works, working out their own salvation, becoming holy, being faithful witnesses to his grace and goodness, fighting the good fight of the faith, showing love one for another as he commanded them to do, and finally to win the prize for which God has called them heavenward in Christ Jesus.
 

Arsenios

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So this would be something in between the Catholic view and the reformed view. Is there any church which teaches this?

We ARE the Catholic Church, and this view is taught by the second largest [because the most persecuted] Christian Church on earth...

I'm familiar with the argument, but I have never been especially moved by an argument that says, "We have been wrong longer than any other church!"

Well if you believe that the Church got it wrong from 34AD onward, then Christ failed and we can thank God for Luther and the printing presses which came along to fix what Christ failed at doing, which is establishing His Body on earth and saving mankind from death in it...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Salvation is a gracious work of God on an uncooperative, corrupted, dead in trespasses and sins human. Humans are not cooperating in this salvation. We are receiving an unmerited gift that is unsolicited and not by our own choosing.
"No one seeks God, not even one."

"I will be found by them not seeking me..."


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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All right. If that was not understood, let's explain it. The word was used in the sense of a continuing, ongoing, accomplishment. In other words, salvation (or the assurance of it, that is) would never be had at any point in life, but that it was something to be worked towards. We reject that on Biblical grounds. And it is also the case that the word Faithful can be used in a variety of senses, but in this case, it was used to refer to a process of building one's spiritual resume.

We definitely have Salvation, and we are seeking it, and will receive it, and are receiving it...

Orthodox Catholic Christianity 101...

We hold the Mystery of the Faith in a purged conscience...


Arsenios
 

Andrew

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We ARE the Catholic Church, and this view is taught by the second largest [because the most persecuted] Christian Church on earth...



Well if you believe that the Church got it wrong from 34AD onward, then Christ failed and we can thank God for Luther and the printing presses which came along to fix what Christ failed at doing, which is establishing His Body on earth and saving mankind from death in it...


Arsenios
The Catholic church was hardly ever persecuted. The Catholic church did most of the persecution of bible thumpers.
That was the past, and you are orthodox so after the counsel of Nicaea you would have nothing to do with it historically.
Heck even Luther encouraged violence in those days... so now what?
We are all one body and -the expression "catholic" originally just meant the general 'body of Christ' of believers, a term that later backfired
 

Albion

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We ARE the Catholic Church
Yeh, we say that too.

and this view is taught by the second largest [because the most persecuted] Christian Church on earth...
OK. I asked because it seemed such a peculiar theory that I thought it might be just a personal thing.

Well if you believe that the Church got it wrong from 34AD onward, then Christ failed.

LOL It doesn't mean any such thing.

However, I do know that many denominations have their own mythology. It keeps the faithful in line. ;)
 

MennoSota

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"I will be found by them not seeking me..."


Arsenios
"Those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them."
 

MennoSota

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We definitely have Salvation, and we are seeking it, and will receive it, and are receiving it...

Orthodox Catholic Christianity 101...

We hold the Mystery of the Faith in a purged conscience...


Arsenios
You teach Judaiser 101 to remain in bondage. It's sad.
 

Andrew

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.
 
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MoreCoffee

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You teach Judaiser 101 to remain in bondage. It's sad.

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION], aren't you the one who follows Judaism in your 39 book old testament, it's a wonder your Tradition accepted all 27 books of the new testament but even that was on shaky ground in your circles. Judaisers are us, could be the name of your denomination.
 

MennoSota

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[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION], aren't you the one who follows Judaism in your 39 book old testament, it's a wonder your Tradition accepted all 27 books of the new testament but even that was on shaky ground in your circles. Judaisers are us, could be the name of your denomination.
We don't preach retaining salvation by works. Neither does the Bible. However, Arsenios is clearly teaching a variation of what the Judaisers taught...which Paul condemned.
 

MoreCoffee

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We don't preach retaining salvation by works.
What you "preach" is no good news of any kind, it is the bad news of determinism and unrighteous believism, like the Jews of Jesus day who preached the Law but didn't observe it choosing instead to live the life of hypocrites.
Neither does the Bible. However, Arsenios is clearly teaching a variation of what the Judaisers taught...which Paul condemned.
 

MennoSota

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What you "preach" is no good news of any kind, it is the bad news of determinism and unrighteous believism, like the Jews of Jesus day who preached the Law but didn't observe it choosing instead to live the life of hypocrites.
Not at all. Salvation by grace alone is far from easy believism. Dead men cannot believe. God must make us alive in Christ and give us the gift of faith. This is all clearly spoken in scripture. There is no condemnation by Jesus, Paul or any one in scripture regarding God Sovereignly doing what He wills.
It's rather sad that you despise the Sovereignty of God.
 

Arsenios

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The Catholic church was hardly ever persecuted. The Catholic church did most of the persecution of bible thumpers.

More Orthodox Christians were killed in the last century because they were Orthodox Christians than were martyred in the entire history of the Christian Faith on earth...

We are being persecuted this day as we speak here and now... ISIS and other radical Muslim groups kidnap and enslave and murder Christians routinely... We have two Bishops in Syria kidnapped several years back who have not been heard from since... They were coming back from Jordan after delivering supplies to refugee camps and were stopped by a road-block. The Deacon driving them was killed outright - shot... The two were never heard from again...

That was the past, and you are orthodox so after the counsel of Nicaea you would have nothing to do with it historically.

We ARE the Communion that IS the Historic Christian Church of the middle East - We HELD the Council of Nicea... We live by the Ecumenical Councils of the first thousand years of the Faith of Christ... We are the Byzantine Church of Constantinople [now Istanbul], the Greek Church of the Thessalonians, the Arabic Church of Syria, established by the Apostle Paul at Antioch, the Russian Church, the Serbian Church, and on and on, one Communion...

Heck even Luther encouraged violence in those days... so now what?

As a Church we have never encouraged violence... When an Orthodox Christian returned from a war, he was taken out of Communion for 3-5 years in order to recover from his spiritual wounds before being re-admitted into Communion...

We are all one body and -the expression "catholic" originally just meant the general 'body of Christ' of believers, a term that later backfired

Catholic literally means kata - "according to" and holon "the whole" and it is understood somewhat as you say, "general body of Christ"... But more technically, it means the presence of the Whole of Christ's Body in ANY of it's parts... Hence a Priest giving Communion in, say, a community of 20 in Antarctica, is giving the Whole Body of Christ in the Cup of Blessing which he blesses just as is the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia when he gives Communion in a great Cathedral... Christ is wholly present in each spoon of that Cup... He is not divided into parts ever...


Arsenios
 

Andrew

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More Orthodox Christians were killed in the last century because they were Orthodox Christians than were martyred in the entire history of the Christian Faith on earth...

We are being persecuted this day as we speak here and now... ISIS and other radical Muslim groups kidnap and enslave and murder Christians routinely... We have two Bishops in Syria kidnapped several years back who have not been heard from since... They were coming back from Jordan after delivering supplies to refugee camps and were stopped by a road-block. The Deacon driving them was killed outright - shot... The two were never heard from again...



We ARE the Communion that IS the Historic Christian Church of the middle East - We HELD the Council of Nicea... We live by the Ecumenical Councils of the first thousand years of the Faith of Christ... We are the Byzantine Church of Constantinople [now Istanbul], the Greek Church of the Thessalonians, the Arabic Church of Syria, established by the Apostle Paul at Antioch, the Russian Church, the Serbian Church, and on and on, one Communion...



As a Church we have never encouraged violence... When an Orthodox Christian returned from a war, he was taken out of Communion for 3-5 years in order to recover from his spiritual wounds before being re-admitted into Communion...



Catholic literally means kata - "according to" and holon "the whole" and it is understood somewhat as you say, "general body of Christ"... But more technically, it means the presence of the Whole of Christ's Body in ANY of it's parts... Hence a Priest giving Communion in, say, a community of 20 in Antarctica, is giving the Whole Body of Christ in the Cup of Blessing which he blesses just as is the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia when he gives Communion in a great Cathedral... Christ is wholly present in each spoon of that Cup... He is not divided into parts ever...


Arsenios
Im talking about fish hat wearing Popes and the Vatican. Which you are not affiliated. Yes they were bad people at one time. Thats all I meant
 
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