Salvation - Part 2

[Albion]

No one has ever argued that our Salvation by God comes OUT OF our own efforts...

Hence your accusation is utterly false...


But neither does it come WITHOUT our own efforts...

Calm yourself or get new insults.

Perhaps its just that Catholics (of whatever variety) cannot recognize works righteousness, even while they are trying to make a case for it.

 

[Lamb]

So the issue is this:

Is the Faith a work man DOES?

Or is it a belief man is given?

Similarly, is the Command to LOVE thy neighbor and to LOVE God an emotional feeling
or is it an obedience to do good unto them?

And the fact is we are CALLED BY GOD to OBEY THE GOSPEL...

2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1PeTER 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them
that obey not the Gospel of God?



Arsenios

The commands to love God and our neighbors are commands of the law...that's not the Gospel.

Obeying the Gospel has to do with faith in the one who could perfectly obey the Law and died on the cross for our sins so we could be reconciled to God.

 

[psalms 91]

The commands to love God and our neighbors are commands of the law...that's not the Gospel.

Obeying the Gospel has to do with faith in the one who could perfectly obey the Law and died on the cross for our sins so we could be reconciled to God.

They are commands from Jesus and while noone can follow them perfectly they are to be taken seriously. There are many things that believers are to do

 

[Lamb]

They are commands from Jesus and while noone can follow them perfectly they are to be taken seriously. There are many things that believers are to do

The seriousness is not in question and we have said that we aren't talking sanctification here.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You would agree, wouldn't you, that "the faithful" refers to those who have faith?

Amen, "the faithful" does mean those who have faith in God, explicitly faith in the Holy Trinity. As the holy scriptures say, faith in God and in Jesus Christ whom the Father sent (John 6:29).

It does not mean "good workers"

For faith to be alive it must do good works, faith without works is dead (James 2:17)

or refer to those who are spiritually dead.

Amen, the faithful are not spiritually dead, they have been born from above (John 1:12-13; 3:3, 5-7), they have died with Christ and risen to new life with Christ (Romans 6:3-4). They are, in short, new creatures (2Cor 5:17) who live the life of Christ in this world (Gal 2:20) and in the next (Jude 1:21).

The reason that the thread does not wrap up is because of repeated attempts to represent the concept of salvation as being something we accomplish out of our own efforts. See this gem for example:

I disagree. The reason it drags on is that some posting here do not believe what others type and work very hard to manufacture disagreements about words as with, for example, "the faithful" being made into some disagreeable term that somehow implies that Jesus is not the Saviour of God's people. The truth is that "the faithful" means the same thing as "God's people" and "the saints" and "the body of Christ" and so forth, but some want to make evil out of what is good so the thread presses on and on with endless posts attempting to make something wicked out of what is good.

 

[Lamb]

If a man comes to faith and in the next instant dies of a heart attack. He's saved by grace through faith, is he not?

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=389]Albion[/MENTION], included a quote in his post but when I quoted his post the quote that he included disappeared. That happens because things surrounded with "quote" tags bet left out of a reply by the software but I want to take a look at what Albion referred to. Here's Albion's post with the quote included in a form that makes it reproducible when replying ...

You would agree, wouldn't you, that "the faithful" refers to those who have faith? It does not mean "good workers" or refer to those who are spiritually dead.


The reason that the thread does not wrap up is because of repeated attempts to represent the concept of salvation as being something we accomplish out of our own efforts. See this gem for example:

THAT, you see, is the EKONOMIA of God's Plan for human Salvation...
We are to live repentant lives overcoming evil powers and principalities...
IF we step this Way of Salvation, we CAN do so...
And IF we do so, God will Raise us to Himself...​

I say amen to:

the EKONOMIA of God's Plan for human Salvation...
We are to live repentant lives overcoming evil powers and principalities...​

I say amen to that because the economy (the way God's plan of salvation works) of God's pan of salvation for human beings is that human beings repent of their sins, exercise faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, live lives that reflect their repentance, overcome the sins that beset them, overcome the principalities and powers of the wicked one (Satan) and do all these things by the Spirit of God dwelling in them and working mightily in them to accomplish this good work.

I am not entirely sure what these words mean:

IF we step this Way of Salvation, we CAN do so...
And IF we do so, God will Raise us to Himself...​

I am not sure because the expression "IF we step this Way of Salvation" is unclear to me. I think it probably means

"If we walk in The Way [SUB](the earliest name for following Christ as a Christian)[/SUB]
of Salvation [SUB](this Salvation meaning The Way of Life that leads Christians into the Eternal Life of Jesus Christ and which is the life of God given to human beings through union with Jesus Christ) that Jesus Christ sets before us (meaning the way of repentance and faith described above)[/SUB]
then the message of this gospel of Salvation is that God will raise us from the dead [SUB](state of death in sin - and physical death, where applicable)[/SUB]
into Eternal Life which is the life of God [SUB]and this Eternal Life is quite unlike the kind of earthly created and finite life common to humanity now[/SUB]."​

If the above is the intended meaning then I say Amen and Amen to it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If a man comes to faith and in the next instant dies of a heart attack. He's saved by grace through faith, is he not?

Amen, such a man is saved by grace though faith despite his life on Earth that was cut short by a deadly heart attack. Such a situation is, praise God, rather exceptional. The vast majority of those who are given grace and receive faith, exercising their faith in Jesus Christ, live productive lives that bear fruit for the Kingdom of God and accomplish the good works that God created the faithful to do.

 

[Arsenios]

Calm yourself or get new insults.

Perhaps its just that Catholics (of whatever variety) cannot recognize works righteousness, even while they are trying to make a case for it.

We are not saved BY works THROUGH Grace...
But we are saved BY Grace THROUGH obedience to the Gospel...
Obedience to the Gospel, if done by willing and voluntary intent, is the Faith of Christ...
Involuntary obedience, not so much...

Forgive me - I was unaware I had insulted you...
I simply wrote that what you claimed I had said was false...
Is that what you took as an insult?

We do not give ourselves God's Righteousness by doing righteous deeds...
But by doing such deeds in denial of self, God Gives His Righteousness to us...

The Righteousness of God comes from God through our efforts to behave in a righteous manner...
We do not give ourselves God's Righteousness by our efforts to be righteous ...

Your works righteousness does not make this distinction...

But we do... Or at least the EOC does...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The commands to love God and our neighbors are commands of the law...that's not the Gospel.

Christ repeatedly discipled His disciples to love one another...
And Paul concurred and to love ALL men...
1Thess 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

To love others as Christ-God loved us -
Unto self-sacrificial death for the salvation of the souls of others...

Obeying the Gospel has to do with faith in the one who could perfectly obey the Law
and died on the cross for our sins so we could be reconciled to God.

So faith is obedience to the Gospel?

Amen!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Arsenios wrote:
But we are saved BY Grace THROUGH obedience to the Gospel...

There is no grace in your statement. Your statement declares salvation by obedience. That is not, and never can be, grace. It is, and always will be works.
It is evident you cannot grasp this, Arsenios. I blame your denomination for the failure.

 

[Andrew]

There is no grace in your statement. Your statement declares salvation by obedience. That is not, and never can be, grace. It is, and always will be works.
It is evident you cannot grasp this, Arsenios. I blame your denomination for the failure.

Obviously you can claim to have faith until you are blue in the face but you have no charity to offer then you don't have a lick of faith in you.
Again we can argue back and forth as a community and debate on and on but we can't see into each others hearts, only God can.
Catholics promote works in sacraments, I don't believe in that, no sacraments are needed by the two great commandments which we are to follow, our works are charity and love offerings to the Lord, not about keeping the sabbath or anything the Jews did (we are gentiles)... Christ is our rest and sabbath. Believe and love, that's all

 

[MoreCoffee]

Arsenios wrote:

But we are saved BY Grace THROUGH obedience to the Gospel...​

​

There is no grace in your statement. Your statement declares salvation by obedience. That is not, and never can be, grace. It is, and always will be works.
It is evident you cannot grasp this, Arsenios. I blame your denomination for the failure.

Brother Arsenios wrote But we are saved BY Grace THROUGH obedience to the Gospel. and you respond with There is no grace in your statement. Your statement is absurd.

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios wrote:

"But we are saved BY Grace"

There is no grace in your statement.

The Defense Rests!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I BLAME your denomination...

Thank you for your prayers for me...

Blame-gaming is for sissies!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There is no grace in your statement. Your statement declares salvation by obedience. That is not, and never can be, grace. It is, and always will be works.
It is evident you cannot grasp this, Arsenios. I blame your denomination for the failure.

Ya gotta walk the talk, Menno...

You no walka da talka you no gotta da Grace...

God's Grace is a Gift because it CANNOT BE EARNED...

I mean, how ya gonna EARN GOD???


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Ya gotta walk the talk

Hey I like that.
Now I'm going to interpret (one of my many special gifts) the tongue "yagottawalkthetalk" and here it goes..
"You can talk the talk but do you walk with God?"

Are we not disciples -learners- of the Word of God?
God reveals and God conceals, we can never expect to know it all. If God didn't conceal for times then he would have implanted all knowledge into our foreheads and good works in our hands and none of us would need the nifty gadgets of today that "behold the knowledge of the world at your fingertips"
We are learners and also gentiles but we are also the Lords doers, his workmanship, and his elect.

 

[Lamb]

Amen, such a man is saved by grace though faith despite his life on Earth that was cut short by a deadly heart attack. Such a situation is, praise God, rather exceptional. The vast majority of those who are given grace and receive faith, exercising their faith in Jesus Christ, live productive lives that bear fruit for the Kingdom of God and accomplish the good works that God created the faithful to do.

So you believe in 2 different methods of salvation? Some have salvation by grace through faith alone? Others might have salvation by grace through faith and works adding to it?

 

[Lamb]

Christ repeatedly discipled His disciples to love one another...
And Paul concurred and to love ALL men...
1Thess 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

To love others as Christ-God loved us -
Unto self-sacrificial death for the salvation of the souls of others...



So faith is obedience to the Gospel?

Amen!

Arsenios

Faith doesn't look to us or what we do, does it? It relies on Jesus as Savior.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So you believe in 2 different methods of salvation? Some have salvation by grace through faith alone? Others might have salvation by grace through faith and works adding to it?

There is one way of salvation and it is by grace through faith for the purpose of doing the good works that God creates the faithful to do (Eph 2:8-10).

Let's see what comes next.