Salvation - Part 2

[MennoSota]

NOTHING...

about the Anabaptist's new invented dogma of anti-paedobaptism.... it doesen't say "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath celebrated their Xth birthday!"

about the Anabaptist's new invented dogma of credobaptism.... it doesn't say, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath chanted the Sinner's Prayer."

about your invented new dogma that water is not permitted in Baptism, Anti-Aquabpatism ... it doesn't say, "But thou canst NOT use water for any baptism."

about how we today can do nothing unless an example of it happens to be recorded in the NT... it doesn't say, "Thou canst NOT do anything unless it is clearly recorded in the New Testament has having been done."



.... and it sounds like Baptism does something, accomplishes something.







It is obviously the opposite.


You insist we cannot hold a position unless the words of the Bible state such. Okay. So, for how long have we been waiting? How long must we wait for you to present the Scriptures to support these new dogmas invented out of thin air by those wackedoodle, radical synergistic, German Anabaptists in the 16th Century?


Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath celebrated their Xth birthday!" (establishing the anti-paedobaptism dogma)

Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath chanted the Sinner's Prayer." (establishing the credobaptism dogma)

Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT use water for any baptism." (establishing the anti-aquabaptism thing you just invented)

Where is the verse, "Thou canst NOT do anything unless it is clearly recorded in the New Testament has having been done."

Where is the verse, "Baptism doth nothing."





.

Josiah, it is clear you are afraid to challenge your tradition by looking at God's word regarding baptism. You will forever deflect and run from the Bible regarding baptism. I am dropping the subject. You cannot handle it.

 

[MennoSota]

But if some texts do mention water (as they do) it is not necessary for all references to the sacrament to do so or to make mention of every other aspect of that ceremony. Those that do so have established the point.

Your approach--cherry-picking Scripture--is invalid on its face.

The context must drive the meaning of a word. You are forcing a sacrament (read church dogma) into the word baptizo. Baptizo is a common Greek word that applied to more than water. The Apostles applied it to being immersed into Christ Jesus, not into water. We must let context define meaning, not church dogma. As soon as you force all baptism in scripture to mean a sacrament, you have inserted your bias, taught by your church, not necessarily taught in scripture.
I am calling on you to question church dogma by studying God's word to see if your tradition is actually biblical.
Is there anyone here who isn't afraid of challenging their church dogma by observing scripture to see if their church is in error?
I challenge us to observe every passage in scripture regarding baptism to see if the authors are always implying water or if baptism stands alone outside of water.

 

[Josiah]

NOTHING...

about the Anabaptist's new invented dogma of anti-paedobaptism.... it doesen't say "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath celebrated their Xth birthday!"

about the Anabaptist's new invented dogma of credobaptism.... it doesn't say, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath chanted the Sinner's Prayer."

about your invented new dogma that water is not permitted in Baptism, Anti-Aquabpatism ... it doesn't say, "But thou canst NOT use water for any baptism."

about how we today can do nothing unless an example of it happens to be recorded in the NT
... it doesn't say, "Thou canst NOT do anything unless it is clearly recorded in the New Testament has having been done."



.... and it sounds like Baptism does something, accomplishes something.


It is obviously the opposite.


You insist we cannot hold a position unless the words of the Bible state such. Okay. So, for how long have we been waiting? How long must we wait for you to present the Scriptures to support these new dogmas invented out of thin air by those wackedoodle, radical synergistic, German Anabaptists in the 16th Century?


Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath celebrated their Xth birthday!" (establishing the anti-paedobaptism dogma)

Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath chanted the Sinner's Prayer." (establishing the credobaptism dogma)

Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT use water for any baptism." (establishing the anti-aquabaptism thing you just invented)

Where is the verse, "Thou canst NOT do anything unless it is clearly recorded in the New Testament has having been done."

Where is the verse, "Baptism doth nothing."



.

Josiah, it is clear you are afraid to challenge your tradition by looking at God's word regarding baptism. You will forever deflect and run from the Bible regarding baptism. I am dropping the subject. You cannot handle it.

What is clear is that you have NOTHING to support your parroting of the Anabaptist denomination inventions: Anti-Paedobaptism, Credobaptism and your own personal new invention, Anti-Aquabaptism.

You are simply parroting the Anabaptist denomination's radical synergistic "reasons" for inventing their new Baptism dogmas (while claiming to be a monergist) and the same SILLY, absurd rubric of "we can't do anything that's not illustrated as having been done in the Bible" (a point you make by posting on the interest)... you want all to OBSERVE WHAT WAS DONE and insist that's what we must do (and nothing otherwise) you state posting on the internet, but even that doesn't help you because you can't show that in the Bible ONLY those over the age of X were baptized, ONLY those who first chanted the Sinner's Prayer were baptized, and certainly not that water was never employed in baptisms in the Bible.



.

 

[MennoSota]

What is clear is that you have NOTHING to support your parroting of the Anabaptist denomination inventions: Anti-Paedobaptism, Credobaptism and your own personal new invention, Anti-Aquabaptism.

You are simply parroting the Anabaptist denomination's radical synergistic "reasons" for inventing their new Baptism dogmas (while claiming to be a monergist) and the same SILLY, absurd rubric of "we can't do anything that's not illustrated as having been done in the Bible" (a point you make by posting on the interest)... you want all to OBSERVE WHAT WAS DONE and insist that's what we must do (and nothing otherwise) you state posting on the internet, but even that doesn't help you because you can't show that in the Bible ONLY those over the age of X were baptized, ONLY those who first chanted the Sinner's Prayer were baptized, and certainly not that water was never employed in baptisms in the Bible.



.

Deflection.
Let me know when you actually want to talk about God and his word.

 

[Josiah]

Let me know when you actually want to talk about God and his word.

Ready.


You insist we cannot hold a position unless the words of the Bible state such and it can be clearly observed that such was done or not done in the pages of the NT. Okay. I'm ready! Always have been!

So, for how long have we been waiting? How long must we wait for you to present the Scriptures to support these new dogmas invented out of thin air by those wackedoodle, radical synergistic, German Anabaptists in the 16th Century?


Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath celebrated their Xth birthday!" (establishing the anti-paedobaptism dogma)

Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath chanted the Sinner's Prayer." (establishing the credobaptism dogma)

Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT use water for any baptism." (establishing the anti-aquabaptism thing you just invented)

Where is the verse, "Thou canst NOT do anything unless it is clearly recorded in the New Testament has having been done." (establishing the rubric you INSIST upon but you yourself reject)

Where is the verse, "Baptism doth nothing."


Quote the verses and then we can discuss them. I think we're ALL ready.... have been for many, many months..... just waiting for those references and examples you insist must be presented (but you haven't).


Stop the deflection.






.

 

[MennoSota]

Ready.


You insist we cannot hold a position unless the words of the Bible state such and it can be clearly observed that such was done or not done in the pages of the NT. Okay. I'm ready!

So, for how long have we been waiting? How long must we wait for you to present the Scriptures to support these new dogmas invented out of thin air by those wackedoodle, radical synergistic, German Anabaptists in the 16th Century?


Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath celebrated their Xth birthday!" (establishing the anti-paedobaptism dogma)

Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath chanted the Sinner's Prayer." (establishing the credobaptism dogma)

Where is the verse, "But thou canst NOT use water for any baptism." (establishing the anti-aquabaptism thing you just invented)

Where is the verse, "Thou canst NOT do anything unless it is clearly recorded in the New Testament has having been done." (establishing the rubric you INSIST upon but you yourself reject)

Where is the verse, "Baptism doth nothing."


Quote the verses and we can discuss them. I think we're ALL ready.... have been for many, many months..... just waiting for those references and examples you insist must be presented (but you haven't).





.

Deflection.
Let me know when you want to discuss the Bible.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13
12*The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ.*13*Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles,some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.

 

[Arsenios]

1 Corinthians 12:12-13
12*The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ.*13*Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles,some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.

Arguing from Scripture needs Scripture to argue from:

1Co 12:12
Καθάπερ γὰρ τὸ σῶμα ἕν ἐστι καὶ μέλη ἔχει πολλὰ,
For just as the body is one and has many members

πάντα δὲ τὰ μέλη τοῦ σώματος
yet all the members of the body of them (are) one

τοῦς ἑνός, πολλὰ ὄντα,
of them of one, being many

ἕν ἐστι σῶμα,
one is (the) body

οὕτω καὶ ὁ Χριστός·
in this manner also the Christ.


1Co 12:13
καὶ γὰρ ἐν ἑνὶ Πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν,
For also in one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.

εἴτε ᾿Ιουδαῖοι εἴτε ῞Ελληνες, εἴτε δοῦλοι εἴτε ἐλεύθεροι,
Whether Jew whether Greek whether slave whether free

καὶ πάντες εἰς ἓν Πνεῦμα ἐποτίσθημεν.
And all into one Spirit have we been watered.

I have to admit I was a little astonished at the last word - epotisthimen - Its derivative in English is the root of the word "potable", which means "safe to drink" as we all know... Strong's number 4222

to give to drink, to furnish drink
to water, irrigate (plants, fields etc.)
metaph. to imbue, saturate one's mind

Yet it is passive, meaning having this done TO us...
And we are Baptized IN one Spirit,
But we are not Baptized BY one Spirit...
Indeed we are Baptized in (and into) LIVING Water...

John 7:38
He that believeth into me,
as the Scripture hath said,
out of his belly shall flow
Rivers of Living Water.

Baptism, Water and the Holy Spirit are all interconnected inseparably...
Yes, Baptism is a Mystery in Orthodoxy...
So also is Christ IN us...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Arguing from Scripture needs Scripture to argue from:

1Co 12:12
Καθάπερ γὰρ τὸ σῶμα ἕν ἐστι καὶ μέλη ἔχει πολλὰ,
For just as the body is one and has many members

πάντα δὲ τὰ μέλη τοῦ σώματος
yet all the members of the body of them (are) one

τοῦς ἑνός, πολλὰ ὄντα,
of them of one, being many

ἕν ἐστι σῶμα,
one is (the) body

οὕτω καὶ ὁ Χριστός·
in this manner also the Christ.


1Co 12:13
καὶ γὰρ ἐν ἑνὶ Πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν,
For also in one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.

εἴτε ᾿Ιουδαῖοι εἴτε ῞Ελληνες, εἴτε δοῦλοι εἴτε ἐλεύθεροι,
Whether Jew whether Greek whether slave whether free

καὶ πάντες εἰς ἓν Πνεῦμα ἐποτίσθημεν.
And all into one Spirit have we been watered.

I have to admit I was a little astonished at the last word - epotisthimen - Its derivative in English is the root of the word "potable", which means "safe to drink" as we all know... Strong's number 4222

to give to drink, to furnish drink
to water, irrigate (plants, fields etc.)
metaph. to imbue, saturate one's mind

Yet it is passive, meaning having this done TO us...
And we are Baptized IN one Spirit,
But we are not Baptized BY one Spirit...
Indeed we are Baptized in (and into) LIVING Water...

John 7:38
He that believeth into me,
as the Scripture hath said,
out of his belly shall flow
Rivers of Living Water.

Baptism, Water and the Holy Spirit are all interconnected inseparably...
Yes, Baptism is a Mystery in Orthodoxy...
So also is Christ IN us...

Arsenios

Here is a commentary on this word, as it relates to 2 Corinthians 12, by Charles Hodge. (I could not copy/paste so I screen captured.)
It seems your view is not held by all.

 

[Albion]

The context must drive the meaning of a word. You are forcing a sacrament (read church dogma) into the word baptizo.

Not at all. I don't care if you call it a sacrament or an ordinance or what benefit you think is gained by being baptized at any age.

But you are deliberately saying that the Bible does not refer to water as being part of it...when it clearly does. There is no arguing the point if you insist upon cherry-picking the Scriptures, pretending that verses which refer to baptism without describing everything connected to the act are the only ones applicable to the issue and, on top on that, insisting that baptizo must mean the one meaning that you prefer, despite the fact that it has several different meanings. You've cherry-picked the meaning of baptizo also!

Take the Bible for what it tells us--all of what it tells us--and you have no case. But you already know that; I'm just saying that we know it too.

 

[MennoSota]

Not at all. I don't care if you call it a sacrament or an ordinance or what benefit you think is gained by being baptized at any age.

But you are deliberately saying that the Bible does not refer to water as being part of it...when it clearly does. There is no arguing the point if you insist upon cherry-picking the Scriptures, pretending that verses which refer to baptism without describing everything connected to the act are the only ones applicable to the issue and, on top on that, insisting that baptizo must mean the one meaning that you prefer, despite the fact that it has several different meanings. You've cherry-picked the meaning of baptizo also!

Take the Bible for what it tells us--all of what it tells us--and you have no case. But you already know that; I'm just saying that we know it too.

So...you infer water into every use of the word baptizo?
On what grounds do you demand water be inferred into every use of the word baptizo?

 

[Albion]

So...you infer water into every use of the word baptizo?

If the reference is to the sacrament/ordinance rather than to one of the other experiences that are called baptisms by way of analogy.

 

[MennoSota]

If the reference is to the sacrament/ordinance rather than to one of the other experiences that are called baptisms by way of analogy.

There is no reference to a "sacrament" (a made up term by Rome by the way) in 1 Corinthians 12.
In this passage we read that the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ. There is no water involved.

The Spirit immerses us into Christ (not into water). The passage speaks for itself.

12*The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ.*13*Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles,some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Arguing from Scripture needs Scripture to argue from:

1Co 12:12
Καθάπερ γὰρ τὸ σῶμα ἕν ἐστι καὶ μέλη ἔχει πολλὰ,
For just as the body is one and has many members

πάντα δὲ τὰ μέλη τοῦ σώματος
yet all the members of the body of them (are) one

τοῦς ἑνός, πολλὰ ὄντα,
of them of one, being many

ἕν ἐστι σῶμα,
one is (the) body

οὕτω καὶ ὁ Χριστός·
in this manner also the Christ.


1Co 12:13
καὶ γὰρ ἐν ἑνὶ Πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν,
For also in one Spirit we all into one body have been baptized.

εἴτε ᾿Ιουδαῖοι εἴτε ῞Ελληνες, εἴτε δοῦλοι εἴτε ἐλεύθεροι,
Whether Jew whether Greek whether slave whether free

καὶ πάντες εἰς ἓν Πνεῦμα ἐποτίσθημεν.
And all into one Spirit have we been watered.

I have to admit I was a little astonished at the last word - epotisthimen - Its derivative in English is the root of the word "potable", which means "safe to drink" as we all know... Strong's number 4222

to give to drink, to furnish drink
to water, irrigate (plants, fields etc.)
metaph. to imbue, saturate one's mind

Yet it is passive, meaning having this done TO us...
And we are Baptized IN one Spirit,
But we are not Baptized BY one Spirit...
Indeed we are Baptized in (and into) LIVING Water...

John 7:38
He that believeth into me,
as the Scripture hath said,
out of his belly shall flow
Rivers of Living Water.

Baptism, Water and the Holy Spirit are all interconnected inseparably...
Yes, Baptism is a Mystery in Orthodoxy...
So also is Christ IN us...

Arsenios

It is interesting that a denomination of Christians named Baptist has the view of baptism that they do.

But creating two baptisms one in water and another that is spiritual looks more like a doctrine from Pentecostal denominations.

 

[Arsenios]

It seems your view is not held by all.

Which all by itself proves the existence of God!

Here is a commentary by St. Ambrose:

"Both Apostles and Prophets received that One Spirit,
as the vessel of election.
The doctor of the Gentiles, says:
'For also in One Spirit were we all Baptized into One Body...
And were all given to drink into One Spirit';
Him, as it were, Who cannot be divided,
but is poured into souls,
and flows into the senses,
that He may quench the burning of this world's thirst."

This is, I believe, a better translation of the passive of the aorist "epotisthimen" than my "have been watered", rending it much more properly: "Have been given to drink" into One Spirit... [God bless Greek usage!]... Which makes the meaning much more clear, for we eat the Body of our Lord, and drink His Blood... So that referring to the Eucharist seems fairly straight-forward...

We are baptized INTO One Spirit, but nowhere does it say, as your quoted comentary drifts, BY One spirit...

John the Baptist reported that Christ will come and Baptize, and Scripture confirms that He did Baptize...
And it also confirms that His Disciples were the ones actually DOING the Baptizing...
This confirms that when His Disciples are Baptizing, it is Christ Baptizing...
And it also lays the groundwork for His Commanding His Apostles alone...
To be Baptizing ALL the Nations [INTO Christ]...
For by this, it is STILL Christ, not mere men, DOING the Baptizing into Himself...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But creating two baptisms
one in water
and another that is spiritual
looks...

Wierd!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Which all by itself proves the existence of God!

Here is a commentary by St. Ambrose:

"Both Apostles and Prophets received that One Spirit,
as the vessel of election.
The doctor of the Gentiles, says:
'For also in One Spirit were we all Baptized into One Body...
And were all given to drink into One Spirit';
Him, as it were, Who cannot be divided,
but is poured into souls,
and flows into the senses,
that He may quench the burning of this world's thirst."

This is, I believe, a better translation of the passive of the aorist "epotisthimen" than my "have been watered", rending it much more properly: "Have been given to drink" into One Spirit... [God bless Greek usage!]... Which makes the meaning much more clear, for we eat the Body of our Lord, and drink His Blood... So that referring to the Eucharist seems fairly straight-forward...

We are baptized INTO One Spirit, but nowhere does it say, as your quoted comentary drifts, BY One spirit...

John the Baptist reported that Christ will come and Baptize, and Scripture confirms that He did Baptize...
And it also confirms that His Disciples were the ones actually DOING the Baptizing...
This confirms that when His Disciples are Baptizing, it is Christ Baptizing...
And it also lays the groundwork for His Commanding His Apostles alone...
To be Baptizing ALL the Nations [INTO Christ]...
For by this, it is STILL Christ, not mere men, DOING the Baptizing into Himself...

Arsenios

Of course it's not. You just can't prove that water is used. You are inferring and implying. This is done because your dogma demands a means of salvation via water baptism. A dogma that is not legitimately established in the Bible, but has been created by inference.

 

[MennoSota]

Wierd!

Arsenios

Only one is effectual, that being the Holy Spirit baptizing us into Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
What is weird is you imagining that hydrogen and oxygen atoms combined together result in salvation, as long as some priest says "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" while sprinkling those atoms onto a baby. That's weird. In fact, it's belief in magic, not in Jesus shed blood for the remission of sins.

 

[Josiah]

Only one is effectual, that being the Holy Spirit baptizing us into Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

Yup. There goes your dogma that baptism does nothing.... and that the Holy Spirit is inactive and ineffectual in baptism....

And of course, this verse that you are offering doesn't at all to prove that ...

1) Baptism is dogmatically forbidden unless and until the receiver has attained the magical age of X (anti-Paedobaptism),
2) Baptism is dogmatically forbidden unless and until the receiver has given adequite and public evidence of their faith in Christ (Credobaptism),
3) Baptism does nothing and accomplishes nothing and cannot be used by God for anything,
4) the reciever must be entirely covered with water, the AMOUNT of water involved is a matter of dogma.
You've offered NOTHING to support those new invented dogmas

And this verse, that it seems you just found, actually suggests that the Holy Spirit IS involved and that Baptism DOES something. I think you are shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[MennoSota]

Yup. There goes your dogma that baptism does nothing.... and that the Holy Spirit is inactive and ineffectual in baptism....

And of course, this verse that you are offering doesn't at all to prove that ...

1) Baptism is dogmatically forbidden unless and until the receiver has attained the magical age of X (anti-Paedobaptism),
2) Baptism is dogmatically forbidden unless and until the receiver has given adequite and public evidence of their faith in Christ (Credobaptism),
3) Baptism does nothing and accomplishes nothing and cannot be used by God for anything,
4) the reciever must be entirely covered with water, the AMOUNT of water involved is a matter of dogma.
You've offered NOTHING to support those new invented dogmas

And this verse, that it seems you just found, actually suggests that the Holy Spirit IS involved and that Baptism DOES something. I think you are shooting yourself in the foot.

First, baptism immerses us into Christ. Read 1 Corinthians 12:13 and say otherwise. The Spirit immerses us into Christ. That is what the scriptures tell us, Josiah. Show me where H2O is used when the Spirit immerses us into Christ. You can win this argument right there.
So...I am not discussing church dogma. I am calling on all of us to address scripture and scripture alone. Do you have the willingness to do such a thing as let scripture speak for itself?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wierd!

Arsenios

Yes, it also looks weird.

Especially when holy scripture teaches that there is one baptism not two or more.