Salvation - Part 2

[MoreCoffee]

What I am wondering is how do folk with a theology similar to MennoSota's, Baptist folk and some Pentecostal folk, interpret what saint Peter wrote in the passage I quoted before.

1 Peter 3:13-22 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? 14 But even if you do suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God's will, than for doing wrong. 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.​

 

[Josiah]

What I am wondering is how do folk with a theology similar to MennoSota's, Baptist folk and some Pentecostal folk, interpret what saint Peter wrote in the passage I quoted before.

1 Peter 3:13-22 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? 14 But even if you do suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God's will, than for doing wrong. 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.​

Well, the Anabaptists (who invented all the new baptism theories we now at times see in Baptist, Pentecostal, Mormon and "Evangelical" circles), it was simply their synergism.

The Anabaptists were radical, extreme synergist - so much so that they denounced Catholicism too for not being nearly synergistic enough, and of course denounced the Council of Orange and Luther and Calvin. In their synergism, justification (narrow) is a cooperative, "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" effort... the receiver has to DO things to unlock God and make it possible for God to do His part. Infant baptism horrified them because how can a baby do HIS part in the salvation of himself???? Heck, a lot of the time the baby sleeps through the whole thing!!!!!! So, because the receiver didn't (cannot) do his/her part in the salvation of self, ergo it cannot be used by God, cannot be a means of grace, cannot be anything but something we do cuz Jesus told us to (God only knows why). Yes, they had to discount a LOT of Scriptures and 1500 years of Christianity, but the "rule" was not Scripture or history but their radical synergism.


.

 

[Arsenios]

I am not sure what the most common age (in days) of an infant presented for baptism might be. From what I've seen, many are several months old, but many parents who present their children for baptism are infrequent attendees at mass so I guess that their religion is partly cultural and partly something else (God willing something better than culture).

40 Days is, I believe, Canonical...
When the mother is re-churched and
Her infant is baptized into Christ...
And receives the Body and Blood of our Lord...

But of course, all manner of worldly exigencies CAN affect the WHEN...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Well, the Anabaptists (who invented all the new baptism theories we now at times see in Baptist, Pentecostal, Mormon and "Evangelical" circles), it was simply their synergism.

The Anabaptists were radical, extreme synergist - so much so that they denounced Catholicism too for not being nearly synergistic enough, and of course denounced the Council of Orange and Luther and Calvin. In their synergism, justification (narrow) is a cooperative, "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" effort... the receiver has to DO things to unlock God and make it possible for God to do His part. Infant baptism horrified them because how can a baby do HIS part in the salvation of himself???? Heck, a lot of the time the baby sleeps through the whole thing!!!!!! So, because the receiver didn't (cannot) do his/her part in the salvation of self, ergo it cannot be used by God, cannot be a means of grace, cannot be anything but something we do cuz Jesus told us to (God only knows why). Yes, they had to discount a LOT of Scriptures and 1500 years of Christianity, but the "rule" was not Scripture or history but their radical synergism.
.

21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,
not as a removal of dirt from the body but
as an appeal to God for a clear conscience,
through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God,
with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

So does your critique of the Anabaptists affirm or deny
that
"Baptism now saves you through the Resurrection of Christ"?

You seem to want to deny that Baptism saves you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There is NOTHING that says that a
DEAD, ATHEIST, EMEMY of God
who hates and denies God
will receive spiritual life,
saving faith
and the Holy Spirit
if he prays to God (whom he denies exists)
and aks (without faith) for it.

Sometimes even if he does not pray to the God Whom He denies,
and does not ask for anything from God...
As Isaiah and Paul both write:
"I will be found by those not seeking me..."

I AM one of those who was formerly an enemy and a denyer of God...

We have a story of old Christianity
where a pagan King had a court Jester
who mocked Christians...
And he mocked them with great fervor,
to the amusement of the court of the King...
So one day he mocked their Baptism...
He got out a tank of water...
And stepped into it saying:
I Baptize thee in the Name
Of the Father...
And of the Son...
And of the holy Spirit...
All to the great merriment of the court...
And he entered the water...
Went under the water...
And emerged from the water...
And said: "Now I too am a Christian..."
And they all laughed raucously...
They did not see his tears...
He was beheaded not long afterwards...
He would no longer deny and mock our Lord...

So ya jes' never know, Josiah...
God is not limited by Scripture...

As John writes:

Joh 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did,
the which, if they should be written every one,
I suppose that even the world itself
could not contain the books
that should be written.
Amen.

Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

Sometimes even if he does not pray to the God Whom He denies,
and does not ask for anything from God...
As Isaiah and Paul both write:
"I will be found by those not seeking me..."

I AM one of those who was formerly an enemy and a denyer of God...

We have a story of old Christianity
where a pagan King had a court Jester
who mocked Christians...
And he mocked them with great fervor,
to the amusement of the court of the King...
So one day he mocked their Baptism...
He got out a tank of water...
And stepped into it saying:
I Baptize thee in the Name
Of the Father...
And of the Son...
And of the holy Spirit...
All to the great merriment of the court...
And he entered the water...
Went under the water...
And emerged from the water...
And said: "Now I too am a Christian..."
And they all laughed raucously...
They did not see his tears...
He was beheaded not long afterwards...
He would no longer deny and mock our Lord...

So ya jes' never know, Josiah...
God is not limited by Scripture...

As John writes:

Joh 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did,
the which, if they should be written every one,
I suppose that even the world itself
could not contain the books
that should be written.
Amen.

Arsenios

God cannot lie so yes God is limited by scripture since that is His word and He will not lie.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
So ya jes' never know, Josiah...
God is not limited by Scripture...
...

You are right. Holy scripture does not fetter God. Yet when God promises to forgive and to give grace he will do it.
The holy scriptures are a reliable guide when what they say is used in a godly and faithful way.

 

[MennoSota]

What I am wondering is how do folk with a theology similar to MennoSota's, Baptist folk and some Pentecostal folk, interpret what saint Peter wrote in the passage I quoted before.

1 Peter 3:13-22 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? 14 But even if you do suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God's will, than for doing wrong. 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.​

What I am wondering is how do folk with a theology similar to MennoSota's, Baptist folk and some Pentecostal folk, interpret what saint Peter wrote in the passage I quoted before.

1 Peter 3:13-22 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? 14 But even if you do suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God's will, than for doing wrong. 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.​

Where is the water in that verse, MC? Can you find it?
God has immersed us into Christ Jesus. No water needed for God to do this work of grace.
Water baptism is symbolic.

 

[Arsenios]

God cannot lie so yes God is limited by scripture since that is His word and He will not lie.

Well, you are right that God keeps His Promises...
And some of these are written in Scripture...

Do you regard keeping promises as a limitation?

I mean, not for God it isn't...

God keeping His Promises is Joy...
So also then is our keeping of them:

"My vows unto the Lord will I pay...
In the presence of all His People..."


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Sometimes even if he does not pray to the God Whom He denies,
and does not ask for anything from God...
As Isaiah and Paul both write:
"I will be found by those not seeking me..."

I agree with Isaiah and Paul....

And with the ancient Creed that proclaims that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of life (not merely the OFFERER of life for dead atheists who nonetheless desire to rip it away from the Holy Spirit).

Thus I completely reject that self saves self.... or that Jesus is merely a Helper or Possibility-Maker or Offerer.... and I reject that dead atheists give self spiritual life, faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit. I've been clearly proclaiming that JESUS IS THE SAVIOR (no other.... not less than) in this sense of narrow justification (you know, Luther's position) and for years, we've had a few non-Protestants fighting that, arguing with that, debating that, on thread after thread, post after post, sometimes for over 100 pages of posts, clearly very upset with the Lutheran position on this (but then, so was the RC denomination, so much so that it choose to split Western Chritianity over this), so maybe it's understandable for some non-Protestants).

I AM one of those who was formerly an enemy and a denyer of God...

EVERYONE is. Very needing. God GIVES us spiritual life, faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit (justification, narrow) and then we grow in the life and faith and love we have been given. That's the Protestant position anyway.... Jesus is the Savior. God is giver of life.

 

[Arsenios]

Where is the water in that verse, MC? Can you find it?
God has immersed us into Christ Jesus. No water needed for God to do this work of grace.
Water baptism is symbolic.

Where is water in the Old Testament?
It is fully attested in the New Testament...

Immersion in the Holy Spirit IS Salvation in God in the Old Testament, yet even there, the People as the circumcision are saved by water and by Blood... - eg by the Blood of Lambs eaten and sprinkled on door posts at Pascha, and by their following Moses through the Red Sea that parted...

When the spear was thrust into Jesus' Body, it was Water and Blood that poured forth, in a way that when John saw it and later wrote in his old age, he saw fit to remind his readers and hearers that he bears witness and he does not lie...

And IF one is NOT reborn in Water AND Spirit, one CANNOT enter the Kingdom of heaven...
And the BEGINNING of that rebirth is REPENTANCE from dead works...

Old Testament Saints HAD the Holy Spirit, and died, remember?
HAVING immersion in the Holy Spirit is not Salvation in THIS Life...
BECOMING a New Creation IN Christ Jesus IS Salvation in this Life...
Saturation in the Holy Spirit will give Salvation in the Age to Come...

But we need to be re-Born of Water AND Spirit...
And not just Spirit as you are insisting...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

I believe that the Bible is correct and that there is one baptism. I believe it involves both water and the spirit.

 

[MennoSota]

Where is water in the Old Testament?
It is fully attested in the New Testament...

Immersion in the Holy Spirit IS Salvation in God in the Old Testament, yet even there, the People as the circumcision are saved by water and by Blood... - eg by the Blood of Lambs eaten and sprinkled on door posts at Pascha, and by their following Moses through the Red Sea that parted...

When the spear was thrust into Jesus' Body, it was Water and Blood that poured forth, in a way that when John saw it and later wrote in his old age, he saw fit to remind his readers and hearers that he bears witness and he does not lie...

And IF one is NOT reborn in Water AND Spirit, one CANNOT enter the Kingdom of heaven...
And the BEGINNING of that rebirth is REPENTANCE from dead works...

Old Testament Saints HAD the Holy Spirit, and died, remember?
HAVING immersion in the Holy Spirit is not Salvation in THIS Life...
BECOMING a New Creation IN Christ Jesus IS Salvation in this Life...
Saturation in the Holy Spirit will give Salvation in the Age to Come...

But we need to be re-Born of Water AND Spirit...
And not just Spirit as you are insisting...


Arsenios

No, the people in the Old Testament are saved by faith, as in the New Testament. As Paul testifies, we are children of the promise, not the law.
Yet, you keep adding the law. You stack up ceremony upon ceremony as your means of salvation, yet you ignore salvation as a means of the promise.

 

[MennoSota]

I believe that the Bible is correct and that there is one baptism. I believe it involves both water and the spirit.

Does baptism save you? Does the ceremony magically redeem?

 

[Josiah]

Does baptism save you? Does the ceremony magically redeem?

AGAIN, yet again, trying still one more time..... There is ONE (and only one) Savior, and He is Jesus. Jesus is THE (one and only and all-sufficient) Savior. But I reject your premise that if any means is involved, God is rendered impotent... indeed, I think that typically God works via means (in fact, I can't think of one clear case in the Bible or in 2000 years of history where that's not the case.... Even John the Baptist in his mother's womb could have heard the Word). Just because some means is involved doesn't mean Jesus didn't do it. When my son was born, I gave God 100% of the glory and credit - GOD GAVE this child to us (but I know enough biology that He employed some act on our part). "Tools in the hands of the carpenter." So, the Bible is not wrong when it says "Baptism now saves you" or "salvation comes by hearing the word" - for God uses means, but yes, indeed, absolutely, as so many of us have posted to you over and over and over: there is ONE Savior, He is Jesus, Jesus does ALL the Saving, there is salvation in no other. We just disagree with you than unless this is by PURE FIAT (no human said or did or shared ANYTHING) - purely out of thin air - then Jesus can't save, Jesus is rendered impotent. I guess maybe we just have a bigger God than you? Or maybe this concept of Means of Grace (also taught in Calvinism) is just not understood by you.

 

[MennoSota]

AGAIN, yet again, trying still one more time..... There is ONE (and only one) Savior, and He is Jesus. Jesus is THE (one and only and all-sufficient) Savior. But I reject your premise that if any means is involved, God is rendered impotent... indeed, I think that typically God works via means (in fact, I can't think of one clear case in the Bible or in 2000 years of history where that's not the case.... Even John the Baptist in his mother's womb could have heard the Word). Just because some means is involved doesn't mean Jesus didn't do it. When my son was born, I gave God 100% of the glory and credit - GOD GAVE this child to us (but I know enough biology that He employed some act on our part). "Tools in the hands of the carpenter." So, the Bible is not wrong when it says "Baptism now saves you" or "salvation comes by hearing the word" - for God uses means, but yes, indeed, absolutely, as so many of us have posted to you over and over and over: there is ONE Savior, He is Jesus, Jesus does ALL the Saving, there is salvation in no other. We just disagree with you than unless this is by PURE FIAT (no human said or did or shared ANYTHING) - purely out of thin air - then Jesus can't save, Jesus is rendered impotent. I guess maybe we just have a bigger God than you? Or maybe this concept of Means of Grace (also taught in Calvinism) is just not understood by you.

I asked a simple question. Does water baptism save you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where is water in the Old Testament?
It is fully attested in the New Testament...

Immersion in the Holy Spirit IS Salvation in God in the Old Testament, yet even there, the People as the circumcision are saved by water and by Blood... - eg by the Blood of Lambs eaten and sprinkled on door posts at Pascha, and by their following Moses through the Red Sea that parted...

When the spear was thrust into Jesus' Body, it was Water and Blood that poured forth, in a way that when John saw it and later wrote in his old age, he saw fit to remind his readers and hearers that he bears witness and he does not lie...

And IF one is NOT reborn in Water AND Spirit, one CANNOT enter the Kingdom of heaven...
And the BEGINNING of that rebirth is REPENTANCE from dead works...

Old Testament Saints HAD the Holy Spirit, and died, remember?
HAVING immersion in the Holy Spirit is not Salvation in THIS Life...
BECOMING a New Creation IN Christ Jesus IS Salvation in this Life...
Saturation in the Holy Spirit will give Salvation in the Age to Come...

But we need to be re-Born of Water AND Spirit...
And not just Spirit as you are insisting...


Arsenios

The water is implied in the word baptism. I wrote this for the benefit of MennoSota to whose post you replied.

It is true that the meaning of the word "baptism" can be wide in some circumstances. Saint John the Baptist referred to the Lord, Jesus Christ, as baptising with fire and the Holy Spirit.
That is a wider meaning than is normally implied by baptism. It does not exclude water however.

When I suggest that a person be baptised both the person and I am talking about being baptised with water into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
That is the normal and normative meaning of baptism among Christians.

 

[Andrew]

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9-13

 

[MennoSota]

The water is implied in the word baptism. I wrote this for the benefit of MennoSota to whose post you replied.

It is true that the meaning of the word "baptism" can be wide in some circumstances. Saint John the Baptist referred to the Lord, Jesus Christ, as baptising with fire and the Holy Spirit.
That is a wider meaning than is normally implied by baptism. It does not exclude water however.

When I suggest that a person be baptised both the person and I am talking about being baptised with water into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
That is the normal and normative meaning of baptism among Christians.

No, water is not implied. The word, baptizo, is a common Greek word, meaning...to immerse. Water need not be implied.
When John mentioned baptizing with fire and the Holy Spirit, he meant...fire and the Holy Spirit...not water.
You imply water because you have been trained to imply water by your church dogma. The scriptures, however, do not support your church dogma.

 

[MoreCoffee]

When I think about salvation I think about the goodness of God, his grace, and the love he shows and has shown in giving his Son, the Lord, Jesus Christ, for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:1-6 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.​