Faith without good works is dead.

[ImaginaryDay2]

So a real faith, which generates works, will save.

Okay. Gotcha. What good works, though, since you didn't like Paul's list? Sorry, let me clarify - you took issue with my conclusion.

Faith, nothing else.

That's not what you just said. You said "real faith, which generates works..." (which is quantified... how?). Then you pulled the generic "faith" out of the hat. Trickery, or an honest mistake?

 

[MennoSota]

Show THAT from the text...

This is purely human speculation...

It has NO Scriptural basis...


Arsenios

Paul calls Jesus, Lord.
Paul is praying to Jesus.
God had shown Saul a vision.
God calls Saul his "chosen" instrument.
Ananias calls him "brother."
This all happens before any water baptism.
I have made my point. I have shown in scripture. Concede that I am not speculating, but have evidence to support my position.
Acts of the Apostles 9:3-5,8,10-12,15,17
[3]As he was approaching Damascus on this mission, a light from heaven suddenly shone down around him.
[4]He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?”
[5]“Who are you, lord?” Saul asked.And the voice replied, “I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting!
[8]Saul picked himself up off the ground, but when he opened his eyes he was blind. So his companions led him by the hand to Damascus.
[10]Now there was a believer in Damascus named Ananias. The Lord spoke to him in a vision, calling, “Ananias!”“Yes, Lord!” he replied.
[11]The Lord said, “Go over to Straight Street, to the house of Judas. When you get there, ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is praying to me right now.
[12]I have shown him a vision of a man named Ananias coming in and laying hands on him so he can see again.”
[15]But the Lord said, “Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel.
[17]So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you might regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Andrew]

And the answer is NEITHER...

Christ Himself Saves us - It is God Who Saves...
That is why we are Baptized INTO Christ.



Good works are those works which Christ commanded His Apostles to disciple the Nations...
Beginning with the foundation of repentance unto Baptism...



Good grief NO not once not ever... Let the Latins KEEP them... Do NOT purchase them ever!
But you would do well to understand them, for through your being so offended at their commerce by the Latin Church, you have LOST the wonderful and marvelous VALUE of praying for the dead, and for loved ones, and for the Church prayers for them, which should never have been commercialized by Rome...



The West understands penance as punishment for crimes - An Orthodox writes wrote a book titled "Crime and Punishment" [Dostoyevsky]... Punishment does NOT PAY for the crime... But through repentance, God forgives... In the Eastern Holy Tradition, penance serves as a reminder to turn away from the temptation of a sin AS IT IS OCCURRING... The really classic example in the West is the "penance" of taking a "cold shower" to escape the "heat" of a "hot date"...

So as a for instance: Suppose you are struggling with porn issues on your computer. And you confess them to your Spiritual Father... So he gives you a penance as follows: "Every time you sit down at your computer, do 5 prostrations... Then, every time you entertain a thought of visiting a porn website, rather than rejecting it immediately, get up from the computer and do 25 prostration before the icon of the Mother of our Lord... You may then return to the computer, do another 5 prostrations, and sit down and boot up again..."

So you can see that the penance is serving as a medicine for a passion that is exercising power over you, and IF you are obedient to it, you will make progress, and you then can go to your Father and refine or increase or change the penance so as to make it ever more effective - Which may take on the form of fasting more than what is prescribed for all, etc etc...

So a penance is not just some silly little: "Do what you are told or you will go to hell" authoritarian imposition, but is instead a strategy entered into for the sake of denial of self and overcoming the world...



No, not at all, not even close...

Am I in any certain eternal doom for not bowing down to man made traditions and dogma created hundreds of years after the gospel was first preached?



This Faith impacts ALL of WHEREVER it goes... We do not pray the Rosary, but we love the beauty of our places of worship, and without the charity of the giving of alms, we have nothing... And we love our prayer ropes, for they help free us in prayer to concentrate on God...



Follow Christ...

Deny your self...
Seek Baptism into Christ...
Take up your own cross...
And be following Him...

Embrace the Beattitudes...

None of this is apart from Christ in any way...

God Bless You...

Arsenios

'Penance' is a fabrication of the word 'repentance' which you perfectly described, just please don't call it 'penance' its a dogmatic term, in fact I believe that the Catholic church was once caught trying to insert the word into bibles some time ago.
As for the chores, yup thats faith all wrapped up in the package!
REpenTance is a big part of that, again however all the other stuff such as beads, penance and this and that is part of your personal doings apart from faith, it maybe just how you pray and thats awesome! Im not against how you choose to pray, prayer is a gift, we pray in our own unique ways.
The only prayer I will recite is Our Father, so if a man who calls himself 'Father' tells me to pray 20 hail marys I may only do it in respect for my presence in that church but I don't expect that I can walk into a church and walk out saved... scripture taught me that.
My God loves all of his students and each is grouped in specific parts of the body as a whole, I wouldn't expect my legs to act as arms do so saying I should be 'Catholic' and obey strictly to its tradition... well, it is just not what God chose for me.

 

[pinacled]

The real conversation will begin when and if you are ready to drop luther from the discussion.

Enough of the formalities you were taught. Perhaps there is something missing from the armor that was so graciously given for a time when you are asked to Stand.

Shod your feet.
If only there were a property of character to recognize in those who have freely reciprocated a freely given gift. What I've noticed while fellowshipping here is that iron seems to be attributed in an inappropriate manner.

Seems there are few who would accept the beauty of instruction in favor of a traditional smear known as Halloween. Hmmph, there are far more serious matters that need attending to rather than mediating peace between two banners that have ignored the Royal Torah in order to gain advantage over another.

Neither you nor more coffee has contributed to the Kingdom proper with charity.
What have you to say about the Torah and the prophets?

Ive yet to see a Child of the Lord here grown in the fruits of the spirit given in fellowship to then mature in the- fruits of increase given in discipleship.

 

[pinacled]

Show THAT from the text...

This is purely human speculation...

It has NO Scriptural basis...


Arsenios

. factors, variables, exponential , time.
What part of the exegesis of Faith are you challenging ?

If ever you need a true challenge in the ordinances of Heaven, talk with me.
No jew, orthodox, catholic , nor any person on earth can share the royal torah in order as Yeshua has.
The woman was sent away for good reason.

 

[Arsenios]

Paul calls Jesus, Lord.
Paul is praying to Jesus.
God had shown Saul a vision.
God calls Saul his "chosen" instrument.
Ananias calls him "brother."
This all happens before any water baptism.
I have made my point. I have shown in scripture. Concede that I am not speculating, but have evidence to support my position.
Acts of the Apostles 9:3-5,8,10-12,15,17
[3]As he was approaching Damascus on this mission, a light from heaven suddenly shone down around him.
[4]He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?”
[5]“Who are you, lord?” Saul asked.And the voice replied, “I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting!
[8]Saul picked himself up off the ground, but when he opened his eyes he was blind. So his companions led him by the hand to Damascus.
[10]Now there was a believer in Damascus named Ananias. The Lord spoke to him in a vision, calling, “Ananias!”“Yes, Lord!” he replied.
[11]The Lord said, “Go over to Straight Street, to the house of Judas. When you get there, ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is praying to me right now.
[12]I have shown him a vision of a man named Ananias coming in and laying hands on him so he can see again.”
[15]But the Lord said, “Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel.
[17]So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you might regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Here is what you speculated without Biblical warrant

God had already saved Saul on the road to Damascus.
Baptism just acknowledged, publicly, what God had done in Saul's heart.
Ananias simply had the privilege to help Saul express his God given faith.

God Called Saul to Baptism...
Ananias filled Saul with the Holy Spirit...
Paul need no help expressing his faith...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Here is what you speculated without Biblical warrant



God Called Saul to Baptism...
Ananias filled Saul with the Holy Spirit...
Paul need no help expressing his faith...

Arsenios

Nowhere does it say "God called Saul to baptism." That is your statement.
God gives the Holy Spirit. Ananias was just the messenger.
Correct, God gave Paul the gift of faith as an effect that was caused by God's choosing to save Saul.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here is what you speculated without Biblical warrant

God Called Saul to Baptism...
Ananias filled Saul with the Holy Spirit...
Paul need no help expressing his faith...

Arsenios

If what MennoSota writes is what Baptists teach then ...

It is odd, from my perspective, that a religion that calls itself Baptist has such an impotent view of baptism.

It seems like the name of a religion ought to tell you something about what that religion is about.

And it seems that Baptists make quite a lot of the idea of submersing candidates for baptism.

But it is odd that in their theology baptism does not accomplish anything that is vital for salvation.

Seems like Baptists view baptism as public proclamation of an individual's belief in Jesus. And as a symbol. A sign pointing to a second baptism.

But what Baptists say isn't what holy scripture says about baptism.

I wonder if MennoSota's posts really do truthfully represent what Baptists teach.

 

[Josiah]

Old Protestant proverb: "Faith alone saves but faith is never alone."

In narrow justification, Protestantism teaches Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as one, united, inseparable teaching (you know, John 3:16). The RCC condemned it and split western Christianity over it.

Faith (in the sense of reliance/trust) is an aspect of this, the means by which CHRIST's work is apprehended and accesses such, applying such to the individual.



NORMALLY, "faith is a busy thing" (Luther) and is "busy with love" (Luther). Generally, faith that is not is not faith at all. There can be rare exceptions, for example, the thief on the Cross probably wasn't helping little old ladies across the street but he did receive the divine gift of faith - so he had faith but no tangable act of love (apart of his confession). John the Baptist in the womb of his mother had the divine gift of faith but probably didn't feed the hungry - so he had faith but no tangible act of love (apart from his leaping in the womb at the presence of Jesus in the womb of His mother). There doesn't need to be a helping little ole ladies across the street every second for faith to be valid (don't press this TOO far, one can have faith even in their sleep) but, yes, Luther was right, "faith is busy in loving service" or such is not faith at all.


The problem for some non-Protestants is that they confuse associations with functions, so that if two things are associated (as faith and OUR works are) they MUST have identical functions and roles. It's an amazingly SILLY assumption but we see many make it all the time. Just because OUR works go with the divine gift of faith does not mean that ergo our works is what justifies (narrow) so that actually it's "Solus Arbitrium" and not "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide." It's NOT that we are saved by our works making Jesus irrelevant, the Gospel a lie, and Christianity fundamentally wrong. OUR works are very important - they just don't justify in this narrow sense. Air Conditioning is important in a car but its not what makes the car go down the road. CHANGE the topic from propelling the car to cooling the cabin and we have a very different discussion, of course, but that requires changing the topic. It's not rocket science but it sure seems to allude many.





.

 

[Arsenios]

In narrow justification...

There IS NO Biblical Narrow Justification...

There is simply Justification by God...

It comes after the Call by God...

And before the Glorification by God...

All in this life...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Seems like Baptists view baptism as public proclamation of an individual's belief in Jesus.
And as a symbol.
A sign pointing to a second baptism.

They are simply affirming private spiritual events in a public format...

And calling it Baptism...

Similarly, if two people live together as if they were man and wife for awhile, and then get married for the sake of making a public proclamation and pronouncement. Thus all their neighbors will know socially that they have been man and wife all along except without having entered into marriage officially, but now it is official...

It does turn Baptism into something of a public relations event...
By proclaiminng one's previous private spiritual experience to the world...
It seems almost a social boasting...

And yet the Bible does say that we are Baptized INTO Christ...
And that God Baptizes all the nations through the Apostles and their Ekklesias...
And nowhere does the Bible say that it is the Holy Spirit Who baptizes...
It says it is Christ Who baptizes IN the Holy Spirit...

Mat 3:11
αυτος υμας βαπτισει εν πνευματι αγιω και πυρι
He you shall be baptizing IN (the) Spirit Holy and fire...
He shall be baptizing you IN Holy Spirit and fire...

This speaks of Christ baptizing us IN the Holy Spirit and fire...
And Christ commands His Apostles to baptize ALL the Nations...
THAT is HOW Christ is Baptizing to this day...

All of which is ignored because of a private spiritual experience of God...
Which, to be fair, is all that is left, when the Church is abandoned...
And they then say that Paul was "SAVED" by HIS private experience on the road to Damascus...
And that his Baptism INTO Christ was NOT a Baptism INTO Christ...
That it was just his public affirmation of what happened on the road to Damascus...

My Brother MC - You are seeing here the results, 500 years later, of the Reformation - You are seeing it in the total rejection of the Body of Christ in the flesh on earth by those offended by the Rome Whom they regarded as THE Church... So that now, instead of having the great Ark of Salvation carrying them Homeward, as their refuge from the storms of this life, they have but individual little life-boats of varying degrees of sea-worthiness, each with a sail or an oar or an outboard motor, personally wrought, all going in differing directions...

I wish I knew how to make this better, because their children are not going to their churhes all that much any more, and their culture is in moral free-fall seeing political power as God... Little skiffs and life-boats are not made to cross oceans... A few may manage to succeed, but the Church is not the Titanic which sank to the bottom... And Life-boats are for rescue, not passage-making...

And the reasons that are given, and our Brother Josiah is such an elegant example, all are pointing a finger of blame as their anchor for their own rectitude... Blaming the Mother from whom they departed in anger so long ago...

The persistence of error is an ever-present amazement to me... Anti-Anti-Anti-Rome...

And the Church washed away in the Anti's...

I do not see these issues resolving in this arena...


Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

@Albion - Hello?
*crickets

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

There IS NO Biblical Narrow Justification...

There is simply Justification by God...

It comes after the Call by God...

And before the Glorification by God...

All in this life...


Arsenios

Thank you

 

[Albion]

@Albion - Hello?
*crickets

.

Hello. The problem is that I don't know quite what you are asking. There is no one list. Paul spoke to the subject, but we could just as easily take Christs Sermon on the Mount as our main go-to guide. Or other references in Scripture. ANY act of mercy or compassion, etc. logically qualifies as a good work. But also, none of them will save us.

What exactly is the difficulty you are having with this subject?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

.

Hello. The problem is that I don't know quite what you are asking. There is no one list. Paul spoke to the subject, but we could just as easily take Christs Sermon on the Mount as our main go-to guide. Or other references in Scripture. ANY act of mercy or compassion, etc. logically qualifies as a good work. But also, none of them will save us.

What exactly is the difficulty you are having with this subject?

No difficulty with the subject -thank you for asking, though. I'd noticed you'd answered a post of mine with some over-done indignation (which isn't really new for you from what I've seen here and elsewhere), but didn't answer your own when asked. Just curious about the word-play in the post I linked back to

 

[Albion]

I'd noticed you'd answered a post of mine with some over-done indignation (which isn't really new for you from what I've seen here and elsewhere), but didn't answer your own when asked. Just curious about the word-play in the post I linked back to

I really don't know what you're talking about there, or why you are so upset, but I did try to answer the question asked about understanding good works. If there is no further difficulty with that matter, I would think we are done.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Okay, then let's go back. I'm not sure why this post

would have elicited

this response

Maybe you can help me by elaborating

 

[Josiah]

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..." (Galatians 5:22-23a, emphasis mine)

"Fruit":



Seeing as how this passage comes directly after a number of examples of works that will not save us, I am making an assumption that these will (in some part) contribute.

IMO, the "fruit of the Spirit" can only come if the Spirit is present. Thus, these are FRUITS of justification, not CAUSES of justification. They "contribute" (if you want to put it in terms of "rewards") to Sanctification - to the lives of those WITH the Spirit, WITH faith, WITH life, WITH justification - but are not what causes those things. They "contribute" to our life with God but they don't displace Jesus as our Savior or suggest that His work was inadequate, insufficient, uneffectual and that we ADD the parts that actually result of having spiritual life, faith in Christ, the Spirit in our lives.



- Josiah

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

IMO, the "fruit of the Spirit" can only come if the Spirit is present. Thus, these are FRUITS of justification, not CAUSES of justification. They "contribute" (if you want to put it in terms of "rewards") to Sanctification - to the lives of those WITH the Spirit, WITH faith, WITH life, WITH justification - but are not what causes those things. They "contribute" to our life with God but they don't displace Jesus as our Savior or suggest that His work was inadequate, insufficient, uneffectual and that we ADD the parts that actually result of having spiritual life, faith in Christ, the Spirit in our lives.



- Josiah

Thank you. That's understood, and in the process of sanctification these are essential - it cannot happen without them. What I was alluding to previously was the emphasis that Paul gave to the works that would prevent our "inherit(ing) the kingdom of God". This is addressed also to the one who has faith. So what we do certainly is not a contingency of receiving faith as a gift, but continuing in it. That was my point