Faith without good works is dead.

MennoSota

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Right!



You mean the one who baptizes is the witness?

That dog don't hunt...

Who was the witness of Paul's Baptism by Ananias?

Where does the Bible say Baptism needs witnesses?



Are you NOW arguing that we are saved OUTSIDE of Christ???

Because the Bible says we are Baptized INTO Chr



Yes, because he was the Forerunner of Christ, and repentance is the pre-requisite of Christ's Baptism INTO Christ...



It is UNTO Salvation, but it is Christ Who Baptizes us INTO Salvation...



No - They functioned as they now continue to function as the Hands of Christ who are Baptizing us INTO Christ...



Where in the Bible does it say we are saved prior to being Baptized I



I have...

Does the Bible tell us that we are Baptized INTO Christ?
Are you saying we are saved outside of Christ?
Does Christ command His Apostles to Baptize us into Christ?

Arsenios

Why don't you baptize yourself, if witnesses are not needed?

Arsenios, I provided Biblical text for my case. Read the passages.
 

MennoSota

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Did Christ command His Apostles to Baptize all the Nations?
Are we Baptized INTO Christ?

The Bible says yes to both these questions...

What say you?

Yes or no?


Arsenios
God baptizes (immerses) us into Christ.
Christ commanded us to make disciples and then baptize them. Christ commanded us to go to every tribe and tongue.
 

Albion

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When water is referred it's water that a person is being immersed in to.

So you agree that water is part of baptism and the sacrament is not just some mystical analogy. That is correct. Water is indicated in the word of God, so that settles it.

But, water is not always present in every use of the word baptism.
That doesn't give the reader the right to insert something or anything else he might take a liking to. No, a verse that does not mention water is not denying that water is used (or else Scripture would be contradicting itself).
 

MennoSota

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So you agree that water is part of baptism and the sacrament is not just some mystical analogy. That is correct. Water is indicated in the word of God, so that settles it.


That doesn't give the reader the right to insert something or anything else he might take a liking to. No, a verse that does not mention water is not denying that water is used (or else Scripture would be contradicting itself).
Albion, nowhere have I denied that the ceremonial/symbolic baptism using water does not take place. What I assert is that God baptizes (immerses) us into Christ Jesus at the moment of our adoption. I have provided scripture to back up this assertion.
I have always stated that water baptism is done as a symbolic representation of what God has already accomplished.
Albion, tabernacle was a symbolic representation of what God did in heaven. Water baptism is similar. Water baptism is a symbolic representation of what God did in immersing us into Christ Jesus.
 

Albion

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Albion, nowhere have I denied that the ceremonial/symbolic baptism using water does not take place.

It would be silly if you had done that, but it isn't the point.

To claim that a valid baptism doesn't involve water or that the Bible does not show that it is to be used was the issue.
 

MennoSota

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It would be silly if you had done that, but it isn't the point.

To claim that a valid baptism doesn't involve water or that the Bible does not show that it is to be used was the issue.

I never made that claim.
I make the claim that water baptism does not and cannot secure salvation for any person...ever. Water baptism is an outward expression of what God has already done in the heart of the individual by baptizing that individual into Christ. The actual, effective, baptism is done by God, not by human pastors or priests.
 

Arsenios

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Why don't you baptize yourself, if witnesses are not needed?

Christ Baptizes, by the hands of His Servants...
No one can baptize himself...
The Baptizer is not a witness...
He is the Baptizer...

Arsenios, I provided Biblical text for my case. Read the passages.

The Bible clearly states that Christ is the Baptizer...
That Christ commanded His Apostles to Baptize ALL the Nations...
THAT is Christ Baptizing all the Nations...

Scripture also clearly states that we are Baptized INTO Christ...

The question is simple:

Does the Bible say that the Apostles baptize all the nations into Christ?

And the answer is yes...

Nowhere does the Bible say that the Spirit Baptizes...

Christ Baptizes us in the Holy Spirit and Fire...
At the hands of His Apostolic Servants...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Christ Baptizes, by the hands of His Servants...
No one can baptize himself...
The Baptizer is not a witness...
He is the Baptizer...



The Bible clearly states that Christ is the Baptizer...
That Christ commanded His Apostles to Baptize ALL the Nations...
THAT is Christ Baptizing all the Nations...

Scripture also clearly states that we are Baptized INTO Christ...

The question is simple:

Does the Bible say that the Apostles baptize all the nations into Christ?

And the answer is yes...

Nowhere does the Bible say that the Spirit Baptizes...

Christ Baptizes us in the Holy Spirit and Fire...
At the hands of His Apostolic Servants...

Arsenios

We are baptized into Christ. God does this. Christ is God.
Please share your verse where it says "The Apostles baptize all the nation's into Christ." I'm curious to see how you twist this.
 

Arsenios

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God baptizes (immerses) us into Christ.
Christ commanded us to make disciples and then baptize them. Christ commanded us to go to every tribe and tongue.

Joh 1:33
And I knew Him not:
but He that sent me to baptize in water,
the same said unto me,

Upon Whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and remaining on Him,
the same is He
Baptizing in the Holy Spirit.


Clearly you can see that it is Christ who is Baptizing IN the Holy Spirit...

And clearly: Matt 28:19 "Go, Disciple ALL the Nations, Baptizing them..." is Christ commanding His Body, the Apostolic Ekklesia, to Baptize ALL the Nations...

The Holy Spirit is NOT the Baptizer...

Christ is using His Body to Baptize, His Body, the Apostolic Church...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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And while we are at it:

Rom 6:3
Know ye not,
that as many of us
as were baptized into Jesus Christ
were baptized into his death?


Gal 3:27
as many of you
as have been baptized into Christ
have put on Christ.


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Joh 1:33
And I knew Him not:
but He that sent me to baptize in water,
the same said unto me,

Upon Whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and remaining on Him,
the same is He
Baptizing in the Holy Spirit.


Clearly you can see that it is Christ who is Baptizing IN the Holy Spirit...

And clearly: "Go, Disciple ALL the Nations, Baptizing them..." is Christ commanding His Body, the Apostolic Ekklesia, to Baptize ALL...

The Holy Spirit is NOT the Baptizer...

Christ is using His Body to Baptize, His Body, the Apostolic Church...

Arsenios
“Baptism” does not always imply “water” in the New Testament. Sometimes it has other meanings than being dipped or dunked or sprinkled or poured with water. Sometimes it is completely divorced from the notion of water. Let me give you a couple of examples. First of all, in*Mark 10:37-38, James and John come to Jesus and say, “’Permit one of us to sit at your right hand and the other on your left in your glory.’ But Jesus said to them, ‘You don’t know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I experience?’” Well, this was long after Jesus experienced water baptism. What is he talking about? He is talking about his suffering. Jesus is talking about his own destruction, his own death, when he says, “Are you able to be baptized with the baptism I experience?” He is not even implying “water” in this context. Incidentally, he is talking about his death and he uses two sacraments and ordinances to symbolically represent his death -- “the cup I drink” (communion, the Lord’s Table), and “the baptism with which I am baptized.”

Another passage of the same vein that runs through this passage is*Luke 12:50: Jesus says, “’I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is finished!’” Again, water baptism is not in view here. Something else is in view and the context would demand that he is talking about his death. He is talking about his suffering. He is talking about his own destruction. He is talking about hanging on the cross and receiving the sentence of the world. That is the baptism he is talking about. Elsewhere in the New Testament, the term “baptism” is seen as not referring to water. In those other contexts it talks about Spirit baptism. We will slip in a couple of those.

In*Mark 1:8, John the Baptist says, “’I baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.’” It is John the Baptist who first talks about water baptism, which is John’s ministry. Oh, but Jesus’ ministry is different. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Water is not in view here. A Spirit baptism is in view. This same notion is repeated in all the synoptic Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, and Luke. It is also repeated in*Acts 1:5, right before the Spirit of God comes on Pentecost and the saints there, the community of believers, are baptized by the Spirit. They receive the Holy Spirit. He is poured out on them. It is also repeated later in the book of Acts, as looking back at what Jesus’ ministry was. He was going to baptize them with the Holy Spirit.

For any Bible church,*1 Corinthians 12draws the doctrine for Spirit baptism. It says this in verse 13: “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit.” All of us have been baptized in the Spirit. The Spirit has baptized us into one body. There are a couple of points of clarification, however. We believe that at conversion, the Spirit baptizes an individual. When you trust Jesus Christ to be your Savior and Lord, you receive the Holy Spirit -- as much of the Holy Spirit as you will ever receive -- at that moment of salvation. The Spirit of God comes to indwell the believer. He is “the seal, … the down payment of our inheritance,” according to*Ephesians 1. He comes to reside within the individual believer. We will never receive more of the Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as a second baptism or a second blessing later on. Salvation is the point where we receive the Holy Spirit. We do not receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. There is no relationship between being baptized in water and being baptized by the Holy Spirit. A person is baptized by the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation.

https://bible.org/seriespage/1-baptism-flood-confusion
 

MoreCoffee

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And while we are at it:

Rom 6:3
Know ye not,
that as many of us
as were baptized into Jesus Christ
were baptized into his death?


Gal 3:27
as many of you
as have been baptized into Christ
have put on Christ.


Arsenios

MennoSota mistakes "into" for "with" when he sees "baptised into Christ" as meaning "immersed in Christ" or "immersed with Christ". The phrase "baptised into Christ" means to be baptised into union with Jesus Christ. That is explained in Romans 6.
Romans 6:1-14 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For he who has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
To be baptised into Christ is to participate in the things that Jesus Christ experienced in his death and in his resurrection. It is to be united with Christ. It is the anti-type of Israel's baptism into Moses where the people of Israel were united to Moses (but not immersed in him) by walking through the sea with the cloud following them.
1 Corinthians 10:1-15 1 I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptised into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same supernatural food 4 and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless with most of them God was not pleased; for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things are warnings for us, not to desire evil as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to dance." 8 We must not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 14 Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols. 15 I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.
 

Albion

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We are baptized into Christ. God does this. Christ is God..
That is just unscriptural nonsense. Is it a matter of saying something ridiculous just to keep an argument alive?

Of course the sacrament requires someone to administer it...and Arsenios is absolutely correct that the Bible records that Jesus instructed the Apostles to perform baptisms among all nations.
 

MennoSota

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That is just unscriptural nonsense. Is it a matter of saying something ridiculous just to keep an argument alive?

Of course the sacrament requires someone to administer it...and Arsenios is absolutely correct that the Bible records that Jesus instructed the Apostles to perform baptisms among all nations.
You preach salvation by baptism, which is works salvation. That is heresy and nonbiblical.
Why do you place your faith in works to save you?
 

Andrew

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You preach salvation by baptism, which is works salvation. That is heresy and nonbiblical.
Why do you place your faith in works to save you?
Anything but water will make you dirtier.
It is said that soap only does about 1% of the job and and water does 99%.
Thus, God chose water as it's also not just abundant, but to symbolize 'cleanliness' in the least way.. the LEAST you can do is take it sublimely and legitimately instead of being SO righteous that NOTHING physical and manifested by God in the material world -could ever be a part of his absolute creation IN YOU - IN HIM.
Do you not physically read the bible by means of Gods material creation?
How did you ever come across the Bible? Did God RAIN down Bibles for you like WATER without a human hand?
Why are you so against baptism by actual water? Would it hurt you to have a water baptism ever or are you so self righteous that you must presume that anyone who does is ignorant and not off full understanding of the word like yourself?
I agree with much of what you have argued on Menno, but this particular controversy with you is where it always ends.
Repent brother and stop cursing water baptism with such haughty and hostile inquest.
 

MoreCoffee

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Anything but water will make you dirtier.
It is said that soap only does about 1% of the job and and water does 99%.
Thus, God chose water as it's also not just abundant, but to symbolize 'cleanliness' in the least way.. the LEAST you can do is take it sublimely and legitimately instead of being SO righteous that NOTHING physical and manifested by God in the material world -could ever be a part of his absolute creation IN YOU - IN HIM.
Do you not physically read the bible by means of Gods material creation?
How did you ever come across the Bible? Did God RAIN down Bibles for you like WATER without a human hand?
Why are you so against baptism by actual water? Would it hurt you to have a water baptism ever or are you so self righteous that you must presume that anyone who does is ignorant and not off full understanding of the word like yourself?
I agree with much of what you have argued on Menno, but this particular controversy with you is where it always ends.
Repent brother and stop cursing water baptism with such haughty and hostile inquest.

Baptism is about cleansing the conscience rather than cleansing the body of earthly dirt.
1 Peter 3:8-22 8 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. 9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing. 10 For "He that would love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile; 11 let him turn away from evil and do right; let him seek peace and pursue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil." 13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? 14 But even if you do suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God's will, than for doing wrong. 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
 

MennoSota

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Anything but water will make you dirtier.
It is said that soap only does about 1% of the job and and water does 99%.
Thus, God chose water as it's also not just abundant, but to symbolize 'cleanliness' in the least way.. the LEAST you can do is take it sublimely and legitimately instead of being SO righteous that NOTHING physical and manifested by God in the material world -could ever be a part of his absolute creation IN YOU - IN HIM.
Do you not physically read the bible by means of Gods material creation?
How did you ever come across the Bible? Did God RAIN down Bibles for you like WATER without a human hand?
Why are you so against baptism by actual water? Would it hurt you to have a water baptism ever or are you so self righteous that you must presume that anyone who does is ignorant and not off full understanding of the word like yourself?
I agree with much of what you have argued on Menno, but this particular controversy with you is where it always ends.
Repent brother and stop cursing water baptism with such haughty and hostile inquest.
I am not against baptism. I'm against the teaching that water baptism saves a person.
 

Andrew

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I am not against baptism. I'm against the teaching that water baptism saves a person.
So is water baptism required yes or no?
If no, then I guess we could just toss out that whole "repent and be baptised" bit because according to you it makes no difference if one does or not.
 

Andrew

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Baptism is about cleansing the conscience rather than cleansing the body of earthly dirt.
1 Peter 3:8-22 8 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. 9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing. 10 For "He that would love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile; 11 let him turn away from evil and do right; let him seek peace and pursue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those that do evil." 13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is right? 14 But even if you do suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God's will, than for doing wrong. 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.
I agree MC, today scientist would liken it to a placebo effect and to an outsider it may seem so, placebo to me is 'superstition'.
The problem with Menno is that he seems to be above this 'superstition' by saying that since it doesn't "save you" then it's meaningless and "be" doesn't mean "be".
God saves yes, but you cannot dismiss his very teachings making his law of no effect... Two masters, a slave to sin or a slave to God, and not all who say "Jesus Jesus" will be saved.
 

Albion

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I am not against baptism. I'm against the teaching that water baptism saves a person.

So…is it your wish that we now switch the discussion from what we have been working on to something else--to the question of whether or not baptism saves?
 
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