Faith without good works is dead.

[MennoSota]

If what MennoSota writes is what Baptists teach then ...

It is odd, from my perspective, that a religion that calls itself Baptist has such an impotent view of baptism.

It seems like the name of a religion ought to tell you something about what that religion is about.

And it seems that Baptists make quite a lot of the idea of submersing candidates for baptism.

But it is odd that in their theology baptism does not accomplish anything that is vital for salvation.

Seems like Baptists view baptism as public proclamation of an individual's belief in Jesus. And as a symbol. A sign pointing to a second baptism.

But what Baptists say isn't what holy scripture says about baptism.

I wonder if MennoSota's posts really do truthfully represent what Baptists teach.

You have a magical (alchemist) concept of baptism that is not biblical. You turn an symbol of God's grace into a work required for salvation. It is a subtle, not so subtle, Judaiser tactic upon which I have consistently call you and Arsenios out. I note you are blind to this as a teaching of works salvation.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

You have a magical (alchemist) concept of baptism that is not biblical. You turn an symbol of God's grace into a work required for salvation. It is a subtle, not so subtle, Judaiser tactic upon which I have consistently call you and Arsenios out. I note you are blind to this as a teaching of works salvation.

And if a Baptist convert refuses baptism (symbol or not) how is he counselled?

 

[MoreCoffee]

And if a Baptist convert refuses baptism (symbol or not) how is he counselled?

The Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF) says: Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it: or, that all that are baptised are undoubtedly regenerated.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession deleted the part quoted above from the WCF.

The Baptist Union here in Australia doesn't encourage reception of a person into church membership until after they are baptised.

Maybe there's no prescribed way, in a Baptist church, to counsel a chap who doesn't want to be baptised.

 

[MennoSota]

And if a Baptist convert refuses baptism (symbol or not) how is he counselled?

We tell them that baptism is an act of obedience to God's command. We are to be ambassadors in proclaiming the good news. Baptism is a proclamation to witnesses that God has immersed (baptizo) you into Christ so that you no longer live, but Christ lives within you (Galatians 2:20). God is glorified in our obedience.

 

[Andrew]

And if a Baptist convert refuses baptism (symbol or not) how is he counselled?

Babies hardly have a choice, this is why I believe baptism is more than some guy sprinkling water on a person and being righteous enough to bless them with baptism.
Is it possible for someone who was baptised as a baby to be a complete antichrist in their adult yes, absolutely, so it must be something a bit more special yes?

 

[Albion]

It looks like the people who object to baptizing infants and to the sacrament of baptism generally do that because they do not know what it is all about (according to the traditional view, that is).

I know that the meaning has been explained a number of times, but it does appear that a failure to understand what the churches have historically taught about baptism (other than for the few churches of the Anabaptist persuasion, that is) remains as the obstacle here.

 

[atpollard]

I wonder if MennoSota's posts really do truthfully represent what Baptists teach.

from The Baptist Faith and Message (2000)

VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.

 

[Arsenios]

Baptism is a proclamation to witnesses...

Where does the Bible say this?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You have a magical (alchemist) concept of baptism that is not biblical.
I have consistently called you and Arsenios out.

I have never heard you proclaim what the Bible says,
That we are BAPTIZED INTO Christ...
That Christ commanded His Apostles to Baptize...

So tell me, Menno -
Does the Bible say that the Apostles are to Baptize the Nations INTO Christ?

Yes is a good answer...

What is YOUR answer?


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

from The Baptist Faith and Message (2000)

VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

So far it matches (more or less) what MennoSota said.

It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.​

The rest looks somewhat like what MennoSota says. It says baptism is symbolic. But it doesn't say that there are two baptisms like MennoSota does.

 

[MennoSota]

Where does the Bible say this?

Arsenios

Everytime you read about someone being baptized. They always have a witness to their baptism and their baptism always comes after they have been saved.
John the Baptist baptized unto repentance, but never unto salvation. His baptism is not the baptism performed by the Apostles and early deacons. That baptism was always in response to someone being saved.
Read all the passages about baptism and you will see this pattern.

 

[MennoSota]

I have never heard you proclaim what the Bible says,
That we are BAPTIZED INTO Christ...
That Christ commanded His Apostles to Baptize...

So tell me, Menno -
Does the Bible say that the Apostles are to Baptize the Nations INTO Christ?

Yes is a good answer...

What is YOUR answer?


Arsenios

We are immersed in to Christ. That isn't water immersion, Arsenios. Baptizo just means to immerse. It could be immersion in water, oil, spaghetti sauce, etc. In the case you are referring to, it is immersion into Christ. No water is used, Arsenios.

 

[Albion]

We are immersed in to Christ. That isn't water immersion, Arsenios. Baptizo just means to immerse. It could be immersion in water, oil, spaghetti sauce, etc..

Except that, in the New Testament, the instances of people being baptized refer to the use of water, not to olive oil or Coca-Cola, etc. What is NOT indicated is immersion. Besides which, the word Baptizo also means to dip, wash, and some other things, none of which make any sense if we think it might have been blood, spaghetti sauce, anti-freeze … or nothing at all ("immersed" into Christ).

 

[MennoSota]

Except that, in the New Testament, the instances of people being baptized refer to the use of water, not to olive oil or Coca-Cola, etc. What is NOT indicated is immersion. Besides which, the word Baptizo also means to dip, wash, and some other things, none of which make any sense if we think it might have been blood, spaghetti sauce, anti-freeze … or nothing at all ("immersed" into Christ).

But the word baptizo is used without reference to water in many instances. What happens is that people infer water into the word.
Romans 6:3-5, Ephesians 4:4-6, Colossians 2:11-13, 1 Corinthians 12:12-24, Galatians 3:25-29 all use baptizo without water being used.
Just because we read the word "baptism" it does not mean we must infer water as well.

 

[Albion]

But the word baptizo is used without reference to water in many instances. What happens is that people infer water into the word.
Romans 6:3-5, Ephesians 4:4-6, Colossians 2:11-13, 1 Corinthians 12:12-24, Galatians 3:25-29 all use baptizo without water being used.
Just because we read the word "baptism" it does not mean we must infer water as well.

But those are simply references to baptism. None of them states that water is not necessary or that it is simply an analogy (immerse into Christ). Coupled with those verses, however, are others in which water is clearly indicated. See, for example, Acts 8:38, Acts 10:47, and John 3:23.

Therefore it is not correct to say that people just infer something about water.






.

 

[MennoSota]

But those are simply references to baptism. None of them states that water is not necessary or that it is simply an analogy (immerse into Christ). Coupled with those verses, however, are others in which water is clearly indicated. See, for example, Acts 8:38, Acts 10:47, and John 3:23.

Therefore it is not correct to say that people just infer something about water.

Why would the author be required to say "water is not necessary"? The word "baptizo" is a common Greek word that simply means "to immerse." The context gives us the information about the object being immersed into another object. In the cases I present, the believer is being immersed into Christ Jesus by God's work. No human is immersing another human into water because the context does not add such an action.
Therefore, it is incorrect to force water into every use of the word baptizo when you read it in scripture.

 

[Albion]

Why would the author be required to say "water is not necessary"? The word "baptizo" is a common Greek word that simply means "to immerse."

The fact remains, however, that water is indicated in a number of verses that refer to baptism...and never, ever, to olive oil or any other substance. Therefore, baptism cannot 1) be waterless, and there is also no basis for thinking that 2) some liquid other than water is acceptable.

 

[Arsenios]

Everytime you read about someone being baptized.

Right!

They always have a witness to their baptism...

You mean the one who baptizes is the witness?

That dog don't hunt...

Who was the witness of Paul's Baptism by Ananias?

Where does the Bible say Baptism needs witnesses?

and their baptism always comes after they have been saved.

Are you NOW arguing that we are saved OUTSIDE of Christ???

Because the Bible says we are Baptized INTO Chr

John the Baptist baptized unto repentance,

Yes, because he was the Forerunner of Christ, and repentance is the pre-requisite of Christ's Baptism INTO Christ...

but never unto salvation.

It is UNTO Salvation, but it is Christ Who Baptizes us INTO Salvation...

His baptism is not the baptism performed by the Apostles and early deacons.

No - They functioned as they now continue to function as the Hands of Christ who are Baptizing us INTO Christ...

That baptism was always in response to someone being saved.

Where in the Bible does it say we are saved prior to being Baptized I

Read all the passages about baptism and you will see this pattern.

I have...

Does the Bible tell us that we are Baptized INTO Christ?
Are you saying we are saved outside of Christ?
Does Christ command His Apostles to Baptize us into Christ?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We are immersed in to Christ. That isn't water immersion, Arsenios. Baptizo just means to immerse. It could be immersion in water, oil, spaghetti sauce, etc. In the case you are referring to, it is immersion into Christ. No water is used, Arsenios.

Did Christ command His Apostles to Baptize all the Nations?
Are we Baptized INTO Christ?

The Bible says yes to both these questions...

What say you?

Yes or no?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The fact remains, however, that water is indicated in a number of verses that refer to baptism...and never, ever, to olive oil or any other substance. Therefore, baptism cannot 1) be waterless, and there is also no basis for thinking that 2) some liquid other than water is acceptable.

When water is referred it's water that a person is being immersed in to. But, water is not always present in every use of the word baptism. We must let the passage determine our understanding rather than forcing water into the conversation.