Faith without good works is dead.

[MennoSota]

Well I DO!

But thank you for your optimism nonetheless!



Nor did Christ... And He USED that zealousness...

Ol' Saul thought he could kill off the Kingdom of Heaven Who is Christ...

He was so blind he was blinded...

Then healed in that very Kingdom of Heaven...

Right here on this earth...

And was Baptized INTO Christ by Ananias...

Who filled him with the Holy Spirit, remember?

After healing his blindness...


Arsenios

Odd that you give Ananias so much credit. I doubt he would accept it.

 

[Andrew]

Works are not an air-conditioner in the car whose motor is faith...
They are not some non-essential add-on to Faith...
They are an integral and essential feature of faith...
Without them, there is NO faith...

As you said so softly!

Arsenios

No one here is arguing against faith bringing on good works, its always a mis-understanding in opposition to what the argument is truly about, and that is -what saves? Our 'works' or the finished 'work' that is in Christ?
The evidence of faith IS good works but is only evident between the believer and God, no one can outline, approve, or disapprove or even prescribe 'good works'.
In speaking of 'Tradition', should we have kept 'indulgences'? Am I not saved because I do not serve 'penance' in the traditional term?
Are you implying that only Catholic tradition is the way to salvation because it's justifiably and inherently the 'good works' proposed by scripture?
Am I in any certain eternal doom for not bowing down to man made traditions and dogma created hundreds of years after the gospel was first preached?

Aren't the traditions ultimately of 'Charity' and not of man made objects such as rosary beads, buildings and statues?

Tell me, give me a list of chores I need to do before I die in order to be saved that is apart from Jesus sacrifice on the cross and his perfect Gospel of good news... I'll wait

 

[MoreCoffee]

The title for this thread is a quote from the letter written by saint James.

Is it objectionable?

The quote I mean.

Faith without good works is dead.

 

[Andrew]

The title for this thread is a quote from the letter written by saint James.

Is it objectionable?

The quote I mean.

Faith without good works is dead.

What is good works? Could you give some examples? Please only include the works that can save me, list as many as you can think of

 

[MoreCoffee]

What is good works? Could you give some examples? Please only include the works that can save me, list as many as you can think of

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

What is good works? Could you give some examples? Please only include the works that can save me, list as many as you can think of

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..." (Galatians 5:22-23a, emphasis mine)

"Fruit":

equivalent to ἔργον, work, act, deed: with the genitive of the author, τοῦ πνεύματος, Galatians 5:22
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2590&t=KJV

Seeing as how this passage comes directly after a number of examples of works that will not save us, I am making an assumption that these will (in some part) contribute.

 

[Albion]

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..." (Galatians 5:22-23a, emphasis mine)

"Fruit":



Seeing as how this passage comes directly after a number of examples of works that will not save us, I am making an assumption that these will (in some part) contribute.

Why would you make such an unwarranted assumption???

 

[Albion]

I've been saying that here since before you came. I've never met a Christian (of ANY denomination) who said otherwise.

That is of course true, which means that our friends who believe in works righteousness are not as dense as they pretend.

 

[Arsenios]

I am not. Nor can I think of many more ways of saying what has been explained a dozen times here already.

Well, if what you call "saving faith" necessarily produces works, then works are a necessary feature of your "saving faith"... Find a believer not DOING the Faith, and you will have to conclude he does not have "saving faith"...

As you go on to explain:

So a real faith, which generates works, will save.

Works are an essential feature of what you are now calling "real faith'...

Faith, nothing else.

You just said ONLY faith generating works...

Now you say faith, nothing else...

The works don't effect the salvation, but they are present with that which does--i.e. faith.

OK - Let's hitch up our britches and tackle this head on...

First, our faith does NOT save us, for OUR faith means our Personal BELIEF...

We are NOT saved BY faith - Scripture is VERY clear on this...

We are saved THROUGH faith...

We are saved BY Grace...

So it is easy to mis-speak in the heat of impassioned discourse, yes?

And the Orthodox go on to state the also very obvious from Scripture:

We are saved by God ALONE...

So we say, we are saved BY God THROUGH faith...

Now we hasten to add that Scripture places a definite article before the term faith...

Hence not just ANY ol' faith saves us, but only THE faith...

And notice - I left it in - How I just said faith saves us...

It is technically false, yet true nonetheless, for we ARE saved THROUGH faith...

So moving on:

We then add the specifier that is implied by the presence of the definite article THE:

We are Saved THROUGH THE Faith of Christ...

The VERY Faith that He DISCIPLED to His disciples...

And THIS Faith is not merely believed and acted on...

This Faith is ENTERED...

Because we are BAPTIZED INTO Christ...

Christ COMMANDED His Apostles to Baptize ALL the nations...

Apostolic Baptism INTO Christ is our ENTRY INTO the Faith of Christ...

And cinch up y'er belt another notch, 'cause there is MORE...

It is CHRIST Who Baptizes when you receive Apostolic Baptism...

It is NOT jes' ANY OL' baptism gets you into Christ...

Christ Baptizes with the HANDS of His Own Body...

And THAT Body is the Apostolic Church of Christ...

ENTRY INTO Christ is an objective and observable event...

It is your BIRTHDAY into the Body of our Lord...

The DAY you become a New Creation in Christ...

So the long and the short of all this is that the Faith of Christ ENTAILS a whole alteration of one's conduct of life, and it thereby of necessity IS the Great Work of Salvation, and it is THROUGH this Great Work of turning away from self and overcoming the world that GOD SAVES US...

Which is why the argument that "faith alone and not anything else saves us" is so patently false and even silly in the phronema of the Orthodox Faith... IF you are Saved THROUGH the Faith of Christ, and THAT is exactly the MEANS of your attaining Salvation FROM God and God Himself GAVE to us THROUGH His Apostles, THEN this Faith of Christ IS the greatest LABOR that man can EVER undertake - eg The DENIAL of self and the OVERCOMING of the world...

John 16:33
In the world ye shall have tribulation:
but be of good cheer;
I have overcome the world.

And in Christ, following Christ, we are to suffer and overcome the world too...
John explains it further in his Epistle here:

1John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them:
Because greater is He that is in you,
than he that is in the world.

Because Christ IN you has overcome the world...
YOU who are IN Christ CAN overcome the world...
This is our Divine Calling...
From the Call to Repentance unto Baptism...
Unto our being perfected in Christ...
Having overcome the world...
AS little children...

No small matter...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Odd that you give Ananias so much credit. I doubt he would accept it.

Me too...

Yet Ananias is more exalted than the greatest worldly rulers...
BECAUSE...
He is a Servant of the Most High God...

When Ananias Baptized Saul, it was GOD'S Hands Baptizing Saul INTO Himself...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Seems to me that everybody is saying that they are in full agreement with the title of the thread and the letter of saint James from which it is quoted. That being the case why all these posts accusing some of "salvation by means of works righteousness" and others accusing some of "salvation despite deliberately choosing to live a wicked life".

 

[Arsenios]

That is of course true, which means that our friends who believe in works righteousness are not as dense as they pretend.

Flattery will get you NOWHERE!!!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No one here is arguing against faith bringing on good works, its always a mis-understanding in opposition to what the argument is truly about, and that is -what saves? Our 'works' or the finished 'work' that is in Christ?

And the answer is NEITHER...

Christ Himself Saves us - It is God Who Saves...
That is why we are Baptized INTO Christ.

The evidence of faith IS good works but is only evident between the believer and God, no one can outline, approve, or disapprove or even prescribe 'good works'.

Good works are those works which Christ commanded His Apostles to disciple the Nations...
Beginning with the foundation of repentance unto Baptism...

In speaking of 'Tradition', should we have kept 'indulgences'?

Good grief NO not once not ever... Let the Latins KEEP them... Do NOT purchase them ever!
But you would do well to understand them, for through your being so offended at their commerce by the Latin Church, you have LOST the wonderful and marvelous VALUE of praying for the dead, and for loved ones, and for the Church prayers for them, which should never have been commercialized by Rome...

Am I not saved because I do not serve 'penance' in the traditional term?

The West understands penance as punishment for crimes - An Orthodox writes wrote a book titled "Crime and Punishment" [Dostoyevsky]... Punishment does NOT PAY for the crime... But through repentance, God forgives... In the Eastern Holy Tradition, penance serves as a reminder to turn away from the temptation of a sin AS IT IS OCCURRING... The really classic example in the West is the "penance" of taking a "cold shower" to escape the "heat" of a "hot date"...

So as a for instance: Suppose you are struggling with porn issues on your computer. And you confess them to your Spiritual Father... So he gives you a penance as follows: "Every time you sit down at your computer, do 5 prostrations... Then, every time you entertain a thought of visiting a porn website, rather than rejecting it immediately, get up from the computer and do 25 prostration before the icon of the Mother of our Lord... You may then return to the computer, do another 5 prostrations, and sit down and boot up again..."

So you can see that the penance is serving as a medicine for a passion that is exercising power over you, and IF you are obedient to it, you will make progress, and you then can go to your Father and refine or increase or change the penance so as to make it ever more effective - Which may take on the form of fasting more than what is prescribed for all, etc etc...

So a penance is not just some silly little: "Do what you are told or you will go to hell" authoritarian imposition, but is instead a strategy entered into for the sake of denial of self and overcoming the world...

Are you implying that only Catholic tradition is the way to salvation because it's justifiably and inherently the 'good works' proposed by scripture?

No, not at all, not even close...

Am I in any certain eternal doom for not bowing down to man made traditions and dogma created hundreds of years after the gospel was first preached?

Aren't the traditions ultimately of 'Charity' and not of man made objects such as rosary beads, buildings and statues?

This Faith impacts ALL of WHEREVER it goes... We do not pray the Rosary, but we love the beauty of our places of worship, and without the charity of the giving of alms, we have nothing... And we love our prayer ropes, for they help free us in prayer to concentrate on God...

Tell me, give me a list of chores I need to do before I die in order to be saved that is apart from Jesus sacrifice on the cross and his perfect Gospel of good news... I'll wait

Follow Christ...

Deny your self...
Seek Baptism into Christ...
Take up your own cross...
And be following Him...

Embrace the Beattitudes...

None of this is apart from Christ in any way...

God Bless You...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Seems to me that everybody is saying that they are in full agreement with the title of the thread and the letter of saint James from which it is quoted. That being the case why all these posts accusing some of "salvation by means of works righteousness" and others accusing some of "salvation despite deliberately choosing to live a wicked life".

... because you are applying what is true in Sanctification to another subject, Justification. And because you seem to be making a silly assumption: that if two things are associated (as OUR works and the divine gift of faith are) they thus must have the same function.

The PROTESTANT position in (narrow) justification is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as one inseparable teaching. You can't have it both ways, my brother: you can't imply ("see, we all agree!") and then constantly, perpetually, sometimes for over 100 pages of posts, every chance you get, debate that, ridicule that, and defend your denomination's 500 year condemnation of it. And you constantly evading and dodging the point by playing "the shell game" and switching to something all sides have STRESSED for 5 centuries that we fully agree upon serves no purpose at all. Friend, you may be unaware but Catholics and Protestants mostly agree - and generally we fully agree that Christians are to do works. That's not the issue your denomination chose to split western Christianity over (and we all know it) - it's the becoming a Christian that was and is the issue, the attaining of faith, life, Holy Spirit (Justification, narrow). Luther said God does it all, that Jesus is the Savior, that this is a divine miracle, that this is "the free gift of God" and "a divine inheritance" - and the RCC understood that - and look what your denomination did? You can dodge that.... you can circumvent that.... you can play the shell game by constantly changing the topic.... you can IMPLY agreement while you debate and rebuke it endlessly... but what is, is. Friend, you can even do as some Catholics do - indicate you disagree with your denomination did/does on this and indicate that Luther (and Protestantism generally) is correct ON THIS POINT and thus repudiate your denomination ON THIS POINT - but you've not done that.



- Josiah



.

 

[Arsenios]

Why all these posts accusing some ... and others ?

Well, er... I mean... After all...

We ARE ALL, are we not...

I mean in the last analysis...

Are we not all...

er...

?!?!?SINNERS?!?!?

I mean...

Jes' SAYIN'...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You are applying what is true in Sanctification to another subject, Justification.

Do you STILL believe in SELF-SANCTIFICATION?

Do you REALLY believe a man can MAKE HIMSELF HOLY?

God Justifies, Josiah...

And God Sanctifies...

Man does neither...

One is Holy...

One is Lord...

Jesus Christ...

To the Glory of God the Father...

Amen.


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Well, er... I mean... After all...

We ARE ALL, are we not...

I mean in the last analysis...

Are we not all...

er...

?!?!?SINNERS?!?!?

I mean...

Jes' SAYIN'...


Arsenios

EXACTLY!!!! Not what God has called for, we all "fall short" (the definition of being sinful)... So we NEED salvation. It was you or our brother MC who insisted that "God GIVES us what we need." I agree. Not offers.... not enables us to achieve it ourselves.... but GIVES it. That is the Protestant position. Look what the RCC did with that.... and look how some Catholics (and it seems some Orthodox) debate and reject and ridicule and mock and condemn that. For 500+ years now. Luther held that the HOLY SPIRIT is the Lord and GIVER of spiritual life (as the ancient Creed says.... as the Council of Orange dogmatized) - and look what the RCC did! Luther argued that Jesus (not self) is the Savior (not merely helper, not enabler, not possibility-maker) and look how the RCC responded to that, and how some Catholics to this day get SO "unglued" by what some call "the greatest heresy in history" and how Luther proved himself an apostate heretic on that point (THE point the RCC said was the real problem). Hum....


Now there are lay Catholics who just don't know their history or theology and THINK the dispute was over what the CHRISTIAN (the justified in this narrow) sense is to do - but as all sides STRESSED, it never was and still isn't. We've always been in 100% agreement there.




.

 

[MennoSota]

Me too...

Yet Ananias is more exalted than the greatest worldly rulers...
BECAUSE...
He is a Servant of the Most High God...

When Ananias Baptized Saul, it was GOD'S Hands Baptizing Saul INTO Himself...

Arsenios

God had already saved Saul on the road to Damascus. Baptism just acknowledged, publicly, what God had done in Saul's heart. Ananias simply had the privilege to help Saul express his God given faith.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Why would you make such an unwarranted assumption???

I gave my reasoning in the rest of the post, which you've ignored. If it's unwarranted (another assumption, btw), show me why.

 

[Arsenios]

God had already saved Saul on the road to Damascus.
Baptism just acknowledged, publicly, what God had done in Saul's heart.
Ananias simply had the privilege to help Saul express his God given faith.

Show THAT from the text...

This is purely human speculation...

It has NO Scriptural basis...


Arsenios