Faith without good works is dead.

Josiah

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This is good news. It is a blessing to see you affirm in writing that faith without good works is dead

I've been saying that here since before you came. I've never met a Christian (of ANY denomination) who said otherwise.



faith that is alive is always busy doing the good works that God prepared for the faithful to do.


... as Luther so stressed.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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Didn't you ask for a passage from holy scripture that said there is such a thing as dead faith? I gave you one. It was quoted in the first post in this thread so I quoted it again in case you had not noticed that it said Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead. The kind of faith that the passage was discussing is the kind that says 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, that is to say, passive faith that does not help needy brethren.

How is it that you cannot comprehend what James is saying?
James is NOT saying a person can have a faith that is dead. That is the equivalent of saying God gave that man a faulty gift.
James is saying that a person with no works (see Ephesians 2:10) has no faith, regardless of the person's claim. That person is spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins. (This, by the way, is evidence of the perseverance of the saints.)

MoreCoffee said:
This is good news. It is a blessing to see you affirm in writing that faith without good works is dead - meaning unable to save anybody - because faith that is alive is always busy doing the good works that God prepared for the faithful to do. Amen and amen.
I've been saying that here since before you came. I've never met a Christian (of ANY denomination) who said otherwise.
... as Luther so stressed.

Maybe I am misreading what MennoSota wrote. He appears to be saying that "dead faith" simply does not exist. He appears to assert that "dead faith" implies that God did it wrong and gave faulty faith. Then he goes on to assert that the kind of faith that God gives is always attached to good works. I am very pleased to see such an affirmation in his post if that is what he intended nevertheless the letter from saint James does refer to faith that is dead.
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. James 2:14-26 ESV
 

Andrew

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I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:1-3

Good works equals good conduct, not of deeds but as love offerings to the Lord given by faith through grace.
No church can outline for others the means of what is good works or bad works, Christ alone ordains it through his believers by renewing the mind.
The RCC has a big problem with being self righteous by even promoting their 2 cents on how to be fruitful in the eyes of the Lord, if you can't distinguish between good and evil then you are dead to faith, faith is absolute you either have it or you don't.
Works alone is what we should be concerned about, faith is absolute in Christ.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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And remember, friend, I'M the one (the only one at CH I believe) who has voiced that I believe CATHOLICS often know and believe the Gospel (often in spite of the teachings in their denomination), and that I accept Catholics as my FULL, unseparated, equal (in every sense) brothers and sisters in Christ.... that the Catholic Church is in my view a valid in every way church and that its Sacraments and clergy are valid in every way.. no Catholic at CH has returned that to Lutherans or the LCMS. And I'm the one who has stressed that WE are ALL one in Christ, in the ONE holy catholic church. Don't loose sight of that, friend. Don't loose sight of who has been debating and rejecting that.

It's been returned to me personally. And I think we'd be hard pressed to find any member here (whether Catholic or Protestant) who would say different. Yes, we differ in the validity of the sacraments (hence, why we wouldn't/shouldn't commune together), but not in our position in Christ.
 

Josiah

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It's been returned to me personally.


Not to me, at least not by anyone at CH. Maybe one at any website.


Yes, we differ in the validity of the sacraments (hence, why we wouldn't/shouldn't commune together), but not in our position in Christ.


No, Catholics often reject the very validity in a Lutheran church. In the RCC, a Lutheran "Eucharist" is nothing but a waste of time.. it is not valid AT ALL, it's not anything (in spite of our embrace of Real Presence). Yes, some Catholics will call Protestants "separated brethern" but not "equal and full brothers." They may speak of Christians "not fully in the church" but not equal members of Christ's church. I think you are minimizing things, my friend. But you missed my point: I"M the one here who has repeatedly declared that I view all Catholics as my FULL, UNseparted, entirely EQUAL brothers and sisters in Christ.... that I regard the clergy and Sacraments of the RCC to to fully valid.... that I regard the denomination as valid (and held in some esteem) - and not once at CH has any Catholic returned even one of these things to me or my church. Let's keep that in mind.
 

MoreCoffee

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I am a Catholic, perhaps the only active posting Catholic on Christianity Haven, and I frequently call Josiah "brother Josiah" which is an explicit acknowledgement of him as a Christian brother.

The Catholic Church teaches that Protestant Christians are Christians, if Lutherans are Protestants - and I believe that they are - then the Catholic Church explicitly acknowledges that Lutherans are a body of Christian believers.

Since the Catholic Church confesses that there is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church there is no room for many Churches in the sense in which one Church is confessed so if Lutherans constitute a church then it is either part of the one Church or it is a denomination or group of Christians separated in some degree from the one Church.

The Catholic Church regards Lutherans are members of the one Church to the extent that Lutheran faith and practise is coincident with the faith of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. The Catholic Church identifies the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church with the faithful in communion with the successor of saint Peter who is the bishop of Rome.

So, having dealt with the matter that Josiah raised. it is time to return to the thread's topic.

And since it has been stated by Josiah and MennoSota that faith (to be real and living faith) must have good works attached to it we all appear to be in agreement that faith without good works is dead. Being all agreed we can end the thread, unless we are not in fact in agreement and I have misread or misunderstood the affirmations made in previous posts from Josiah and MennoSota.
 

pinacled

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I've been saying that here since before you came. I've never met a Christian (of ANY denomination) who said otherwise.






... as Luther so stressed.




.

The real conversation will begin when and if you are ready to drop luther from the discussion.

Enough of the formalities you were taught. Perhaps there is something missing from the armor that was so graciously given for a time when you are asked to Stand.

Shod your feet.
If only there were a property of character to recognize in those who have freely reciprocated a freely given gift. What I've noticed while fellowshipping here is that iron seems to be attributed in an inappropriate manner.

Seems there are few who would accept the beauty of instruction in favor of a traditional smear known as Halloween. Hmmph, there are far more serious matters that need attending to rather than mediating peace between two banners that have ignored the Royal Torah in order to gain advantage over another.

Neither you nor more coffee has contributed to the Kingdom proper with charity.
What have you to say about the Torah and the prophets?
 

MoreCoffee

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...
What have you to say about the Torah and the prophets?


The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void. Luke 16:16-17

Can a better summary be given?
 

Andrew

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The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void. Luke 16:16-17

Can a better summary be given?
The Law never changed, the prophets were always about 'works alone' or 'law'... look how they all fell short, how they all failed miserably, we are humbling to the Creator because of our imperfections and mistakes.. Now when Christ came on the scene he changed everything, let me testify to show an example of how Faith in God made me righteous in him.
I started reading the Bible in 2011, I mean really studying it. I couldn't put it down and being a hard core atheist I wanted to build up my defense or at least give the remainder the benefit of the doubt, regardless I grew tired of the current news and meaningless theories on how the world works so I spent days and nights reading the OT, I got irate often and upset because the prophets always seemed to screw things up. I was especially not impressed by the way 'god' handled things in the OT and it was a struggle to read it without much cringing and gnashing of teeth. I wanted to be good but still wanted to be right, I didn't want to be another 'blind believer', I was at my wits end.
2011 came and went, 2012 came and went, 2013 came and went and I was still if not even more blasphemous than ever.
I identified with Jesus and tried with all my mind to rationalise that any man could have done what he did, I mean crucifixion was a common penality so there was nothing particularly special to me about a guy getting crucified for claiming to be the son of 'god' and 'god' himself. At the time however I found my self close to what I knew was God, I talked to him and begged for mercy several nights on my knees, I knew it was the God of the bible and I wanted a 'sign' of some sort, I was stubborn and had no church and I knew no believers to help with what I assumed to be a psychotic breakdown.
I stored all I read subconsciously and little did I know that the Spirit was listening.
On the evening of December 13, 2014 I was at home arguing with my girlfriend at the time and I was enraged because she wanted me to drive her to meet up with some guy who was going to take her to a hotel (I read her phone text the night before).... 10 minutes later, like a thief in the night, I found myself being prayed over by her and several others in the middle of the road at town square. One was prophesying and another speaking 'tongues' and she was praying silently, my eyes were closed and I felt my body being absorbed by 'words' and I felt like I was being transformed, I felt like my DNA was changing... I left that intervention with a complete and natural understanding of the law, I couldn't steal anymore, I couldn't judge anymore, I couldn't be jealous anymore, and since then the Holy Spirit has hit me with more understanding that I cannot in my spirit ignore, I cannot cuss anymore, I don't fuss and complain anymore, I don't take strange drugs and drink and drive and get with loose women anymore, in fact I hate all of those things. The 10 commandments come natural to me to follow. This is the type and shadow, the prophecy and the revelation, the old to new Adam.
So my Faith in Christ is what transformed me and woke me up and refreshed my mind to do the things God wills me to do with conviction and strong approach.
It has become unnatural for me to break or bend his commandments and natural for me to obey them.
I still sin, I know that if I even mention my good works I am a liar before God but I have sacrificed the old Adam to God and he in return has handed me a new heart and new mind and soul, the old 'me' burned up in Gods victory and I am glad to see 'him' gone.
I am happy and contempt now even at my lowest of lows because the Lords absolute weakness is stronger than any mans strength.
MC our deeds are as filthy rags, there is NOTHING you or your congregation can do either by example, or by words to convince ANYONE otherwise than to point to God himself for ALL fall short of his glory and none is above the other in righteous 'works'.
Putting works ahead of the word by pushing or expressing it in any way is exactly what Christ rebuked against.
If you believe someones faith is dead because you don't feel they measure up in Gods eye, pray over them and speak on behalf of God in the Spirit 100%, let God put the words in your mouth and stir up their spirit to let loose the Holy Spirit to enter into their vessel. Anything less is but a filthy rag dressed up in mystical human tradition and lay on the pulpit floor -abandoned.
I know you are passionate for your Lord, you are a Son of God and no man can ever take that away from you, just come to reason that nothing YOU or your congregation can ever do will change a mans heart by promoting 'good works', it just does not work that way. Grace be on all those whom you doubt my friend. Peace be with you
 
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Arsenios

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Could you explain what this second part on “taking up your cross” has to do with “faith without works is dead” from James?

Taking up one's cross is a work one does, is it not?
One must be willing and desire to do so...
Because one desires to follow Christ...

The actual quote is literally:

IF ANY is WILLING...
After Me to come...
Let him first deny himself...


This is repentance unto Baptism...

THEN let him take up his cross...
And be following Me...


One takes up one's own cross AFTER self denial unto Baptism...
It is THEN that one rejoices in suffering for the Body of Christ...

Not many these days do so...
Do you??

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Is confession and penance considered 'good works'?
I am asking a sincere question btw,
just need to know if tradition is part of the 'good works'
thanks

Well, the Bible does command us to HOLD the Traditions handed down, whether by word or by writing...
And the Bible DOES command us to confess to one another in the Ekklesia...
The Russians, btw, still DO confess before the Ekklesia prior to Communion...
And Orthodox penances are still given as needed...
And they are received voluntarily...
We call them the Medicines of Immortality...

Their reception is a work...
So to is their doing...

In fact, we do penance for the sins of others...
Even for others we do not know...
Suffering for the sake of the Ekklesia is Blessed at all times...

Do you suffer for the sake of others?
This is one meaning of giving Alms...
It is one of the best of the Good Works we can do...
It is what Christ did for us ALL...
And we who do so are but following Christ...

One cannot follow Christ without suffering for others...


Arsenios
 

Albion

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Well, the Bible does command us to HOLD the Traditions handed down, whether by word or by writing...
Which ones would those be?

If we are to hold to them, we have to know what they are. Right?
 

MennoSota

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Well, the Bible does command us to HOLD the Traditions handed down, whether by word or by writing...
And the Bible DOES command us to confess to one another in the Ekklesia...
The Russians, btw, still DO confess before the Ekklesia prior to Communion...
And Orthodox penances are still given as needed...
And they are received voluntarily...
We call them the Medicines of Immortality...

Their reception is a work...
So to is their doing...

In fact, we do penance for the sins of others...
Even for others we do not know...
Suffering for the sake of the Ekklesia is Blessed at all times...

Do you suffer for the sake of others?
This is one meaning of giving Alms...
It is one of the best of the Good Works we can do...
It is what Christ did for us ALL...
And we who do so are but following Christ...

One cannot follow Christ without suffering for others...


Arsenios
I don't doubt your zealousness, Arsenios, just as the Jews didn't doubt Saul of Tarsus zealousness.
 

Arsenios

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2Thess 2:15
Therefore, Brethren, stand fast,
and
hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word,
or by our epistle.



Which ones would those be?

The ones taught by word and by epistle...

If we are to hold to them,
have to know what they are.
Right?

Right!

SOOoooooo.........

HOW do YOU propose that we FIND OUT??

For my part, I simply look to the Apostolic Churches and see what is common to them all, and regard THAT as the Holy Tradition of the Church as a START...

For instance:
1 - Liturgical Services...
2 - The daily reading of the assigned Biblical texts, Gospel and Epistle...
3 - The Consecration of the Breat and Wine...
4 - The Mysteries of Baptism, Marriage, Anointing, Laying on of Hands, etc...
5 - The daily prayers of the Hours...
6 - The Midnight Service...
7 - The Service of the All Night Vigil...

Etc, etc, etc...

The list can grow very large, and is very consistent among all the Churches of the first Millennia of the Christian Faith...

Or perhaps you have another sola Scriptura way to make a list of the Traditions commanded by Scripture to be handed down by word??

A similar issue arises where Christ on the Road to Emmaeus goes through ALL the places in the OT referring to Him with the disciples and explains to them their meaning... WHAT He taught is never placed in the Bible... Should we just blow it off and say that since it is not recorded that we should not know what He taught??

Likewise with the Great Commission: "Teach them ALL I have commanded you..." There is no such list in the Bible - HOW then CAN it ever be known?? Should we blow that off too?

I mean, hacking off huge chunks of Holy Tradition as it was commanded to be HELD is un-Biblical, yet is common these post-modern days...

OK - Rant over! :)

So what are you going to DO about Holy Tradition?


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I don't doubt your zealousness, Arsenios,

Well I DO!

But thank you for your optimism nonetheless! :)

just as the Jews didn't doubt Saul of Tarsus zealousness.

Nor did Christ... And He USED that zealousness...

Ol' Saul thought he could kill off the Kingdom of Heaven Who is Christ...

He was so blind he was blinded...

Then healed in that very Kingdom of Heaven...

Right here on this earth...

And was Baptized INTO Christ by Ananias...

Who filled him with the Holy Spirit, remember?

After healing his blindness...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I haven't been following this version of the eternally popular Faith vs. Works debate, but it looks to me that Josiah's comment ('Correct') was made in reply to apollard's post, not to the OP.

Beyond that, I remain mystified as to why people do not see that James' Epistle is entirely on the side of Faith. Even the verses that are usually quoted by people who are on the other side say as much. The whole epistle is about having and being saved by Faith, even when Works are mentioned.

The question centers on the ESSENTIALITY of works of Faith...
We say our faith saves us...
But not faith apart from works...
So works are essential for Salvation...
Without works there is no Salvation...

So if your faith is without works, you will not be saved...
And if your works are without faith, you will not be saved...

And Scripture plainly states that our works perfect our faith, yes?
And that our immature faith does not save...
And we are commanded to be perfected in the Faith of Christ...

I can sympathise with the Latins thinking that works save us...
Because they are essential for Salvation by God...
The Wise Thief CONFESSED Christ on the Cross...
THAT work of faith SAVED him...
Which is to say...
Christ saved him because of that one work...
And perhaps more not recorded...

Had he believed and remained silent, he would not have been saved...

Remember me O Lord...
When Thou comest into Thy Kingdom...


Arsenios
 

Albion

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The question centers on the ESSENTIALITY of works of Faith...
We say our faith saves us...
But not faith apart from works...
So works are essential for Salvation...
Without works there is no Salvation
...
The question is whether the works are effective in the achievement of salvation. They are not. James does not say that they are. He and his epistle are misrepresented by people who claim that it is about works being what saves us (in conjunction with Faith, of course).

When you say what you did above (in red) it is sidestepping the issue. Those three comments don't even pertain to the issue.

So if your faith is without works, you will not be saved...
Because in that case, what you think is faith actually is not faith.

That is what James said and I also explained.
 

Arsenios

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The question is whether the works are effective in the achievement of salvation. They are not. James does not say that they are. He and his epistle are misrepresented by people who claim that it is about works being what saves us (in conjunction with Faith, of course).

When you say what you did above (in red) it is sidestepping the issue. Those three comments don't even pertain to the issue.


Because in that case, what you think is faith actually is not faith.

That is what James said and I also explained.

Then you are arguing that faith = works...
Because faith without works is, as you say, not faith...

I could not agree more...

I should add that works of faith prove the faith of the worker...

James concurs...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Works are not an air-conditioner in the car whose motor is faith...
They are not some non-essential add-on to Faith...
They are an integral and essential feature of faith...
Without them, there is NO faith...

As you said so softly! :)

Arsenios
 

Albion

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Then you are arguing that faith = works...

I am not. Nor can I think of many more ways of saying what has been explained a dozen times here already.


Because faith without works is, as you say, not faith...
So a real faith, which generates works, will save. Faith, nothing else. The works don't effect the salvation, but they are present with that which does--i.e. faith.
 
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