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Albion

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My replies were primarily to questions raised by Josiah and he asked about salvation
The point was not that you replied but that you mischaracterized what the other person believes.

Its all there, highlighted in color, if you want to review the matter.
 

Josiah

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Are we not forced to conclude that God justifies according to deeds?


Who's deeds?


Protestants believe that Jesus is the Savior, not self. And we believe the Bible and historic Christianity affirms that. We are justified by Jesus since He is the Savior and not by self since self is not the Savior. We are justified by the works of Jesus since Jesus is the Savior and not by the works of self since self is not the Savior. I realize the Catholic Church chose to make that Protestant stance the centerpiece of its condemnation and the issue on which it chose to split itself (again) but that is the Protestant position. I don't know the Orthodox position since you have insisted you agree with the Protestant view but condemn it.


Now, sure - if you join our Catholic friend in persistently dodging the issue and instead of discussing Justification (narrow) - the point of dispute between the RC Denomination and Protestants in soteriology - and in lieu of that switching to discipleship/narrow sanctification/CHRISTIAN living (a point we agree upon), all in order to circumvent and dodge the issue, then of course we'll get nowhere on the issue and are simply left with wondering WHY all the dodging, all the evasion?


See... friend... it's not the horribly complex issue the Devil wants all to think it is. It all comes down to one simple question
(the issue on which all Christianity hinges): Who is the Savior (in this sense of narrow Justification)? IF you answer Jesus, then Jesus is the Savior (and not you, not your works, not your anything). If you answer "me" then you are the Savior (and not Jesus, not His works, not His death/resurrection). Perhaps you give Jesus some OTHER role (perhaps Offerer or Possibility Maker or Helper or Door Opener) but not Savior (in which case, honesty and integrity would demand NOT calling Him the Savior if you believe He is not). To quote one of our Catholic teachers, "Jesus technically saves no one but makes it POSSIBLE for all to save THEMSELVES." Our friend MC has gone to some lengths to prove the RCC actually believes that Jesus ENABLES US to save ourselves (which is what I was taught in the RCC) but again, I don't know what you believe because you keep echoing but condemning the Protestant view that Jesus saves because Jesus is the Savior.



God does not justify according to the works of the law?


The question becomes WHO'S works? If Jesus is the Savior, then it's Jesus' works and you should look to the Incarnation, the Cross, the Empty Tomb - to JESUS' heart and righteousness and works, to JESUS' life and death and resurrection, to JESUS' mercy and gifts. If you believe it's according to OUR works, then Scripture is wrong when it says that such would make Jesus in vain and it would make Jesus irrelevant in this regard. Perhaps you align with all the other religions of the world except Christianity, that the Divine makes salvation POSSIBLE and OFFERS it to all and EMPOWERS all with sufficient power to achieve it - but self saves self by adequately/sufficiently using that to save self. As our Catholic teachers taught us, "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what you do." Replace "Jesus" with "God/the Divine" and you have Jewish soteriology and essentially Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist soteriology.


Again, friend, who is the Savior? How you answer that determines how you answer who's works save (in this sense of Justification narrow). Ain't complicated. Although I know Devil works as hard as he can to make it as comfusing/complex/complicated as he can.




Romans 8:30


Already addressed, many times. Nothing there about how we save ourselves thus Jesus is irrelevant in this regard. Nothing about how self predestines self, how self calls self, how self answers for self, how self justifies self, how self glories self. Read the Book of Romans - it's all about JESUS being the Savior, not self.




- Josiah




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Arsenios

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Arsenios said:
Are we not forced to conclude that God justifies according to deeds?

Who's deeds?

The deeds of the one seeking Justification by Christ...

You DO AGREE, do you not?...

That we are to SEEK God's Justification??...

Or do you DENY God's Holy words at the hand of Paul here?:

Gal 2:17
But if,
while we are seeking to be justified by Christ,
we ourselves
also are found sinners,
is therefore Christ the minister of sin?
God forbid.


Are we not forced to conclude that God justifies US according to OUR deeds?

But this you deny, holding against God's Word that God Justifies man according to God's deeds...

Protestants believe that [because] Jesus is the Savior... We are justified by the works of Jesus...

IF THAT is the standard, then ALL ARE SAVED...
For God desires that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth...

The truth is that we are Justified by God - His works do not justify us, but HE does... And He does so on the basis of what it is that we do... And what we do does not Justify us... God alone Justifies...

I don't know the Orthodox position since you have insisted you agree with the Protestant view but condemn it.

And I will continue to do so, because yours is a demonic doctrine that takes Salvation by God far, far away from man...

If you want Salvation by God, you have to DO everything in your power, ALL you heart, ALL your mind, ALL your strength, and you have to ASK and SEEK and BECKON God for the GIFT that ONLY God CAN Give, which is the Gift of God Himself, which is the Gift that ONLY God HAS...

Is that so hard???

The Bible tells you in plain KJV English that you are to SEEK justification BY God...

Seeking it is a WORK...

Attaining it is a GIFT...

That's BOOK...

And you deny all this, imagining you are already saved by doing nothing...

And thereby denying entry into the kingdom to anyone who believes you...


Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Already addressed, many times.

Already dodged every time...

How does God's Call prepare us for Justification by God...

How does God's Justification prepare us for Glorification...

Why is Justification but the half-way point in the Kingdom of Heaven?

Is the Kingdom of Heaven at hand here and now?

Arsenios
 

Josiah

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The deeds of the one seeking Justification by Christ...

You DO AGREE, do you not?...


No, I passionately disagree. I hold that Jesus is the Savior.




That we are to SEEK God's Justification??...


No. Justification is NOT something one achieves for self by the DEAD one "seeking" something he rejects and repudiates. I agree with the ancient creed that the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of life, not that self takes it by seeking it.

I reject that we justify ourselves by virtue of our own works - making Jesus NOT the Savior but self, making Jesus irrelevant in this regard and "in vain".




do you DENY God's Holy words at the hand of Paul here?:

Gal 2:17
But if,
while we are seeking to be justified by Christ,
we ourselves
also are found sinners,
is therefore Christ the minister of sin?
God forbid.


Interesting how you pulled this ENTIRELY out of context and mutilated it....


Galatians 2:15 - 3:2

We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. By Faith, or by Works of the Law? O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?


.


Are we not forced to conclude that God justifies US according to OUR deeds?


No, the very opposite.


- Josiah



.
 
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Arsenios

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No, I passionately disagree. I hold that Jesus is the Savior.

No. Justification is NOT something one achieves for self by the DEAD one "seeking" something he rejects and repudiates. I agree with the ancient creed that the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of life, not that self takes it by seeking it.

I reject that we justify ourselves by virtue of our own works - making Jesus NOT the Savior but self, making Jesus irrelevant in this regard and "in vain".

Pretty slippery dodge...

Scripture says: Gal 2:17

We are seeking to be Justified by Christ

Do you deny we are seeking Christ's Justification?

Let's see if you continue to dodge this Scripture from Gal 2:17...

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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The point was not that you replied but that you mischaracterized what the other person believes.

Its all there, highlighted in color, if you want to review the matter.

Let Josiah say what Lutherans believe about salvation and baptism.

What do Anglicans believe about baptism and salvation?

Catholic Church teaching is as I presented it earlier. Specifically:
VII. The Grace of Baptism

1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptised, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67

"A new creature"

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and coheir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptised sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.​
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body."72

1268 The baptised have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvellous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptised belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptised person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78

1270 "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptised] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptised are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptised is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.​

64 Cf. ⇒ Acts 2:38; ⇒ Jn 3:5[ETML:C/].
65 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1316.
66 Council of Trent (1546): DS 1515.
67 ⇒ 2 Tim 2:5.
68 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:17; ⇒ 2 Pet 1:4; cf. ⇒ Gal 4:5-7.
69 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:15; ⇒ 12:27; ⇒ Rom 8:17.
70 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19.
71 ⇒ Eph 4:25.
72 ⇒ 1 Cor 12:13.
73 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:5.
74 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:9.
75 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19; ⇒ 2 Cor 5:15.
76 ⇒ Heb 13:17.
77 Cf. ⇒ Eph 5:21; ⇒ 1 Cor 16:15-16; ⇒ 1 Thess 5:12-13; ⇒ Jn 13:12-15.
78 Cf. LG 37; ⇒ CIC, cann. 208 223; CCEO, can. 675:2.
79 LG 11; cf. LG 17; AG 7; 23.
80 UR 3.
81 UR 22 # 2.
82 Cf. ⇒ Rom 8:29; Council of Trent (1547): DS 1609-1619.
83 Cf. LG 11.
84 Cf. LG 10.
85 St. Augustine, Ep. 98, 5: PL 33, 362; ⇒ Eph 4:30; cf. ⇒ 1:13-14; ⇒ 2 Cor 1:21-22.
86 St. Irenaeus, Dem ap. 3: SCh 62, 32.
87 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 97.​
At one time Anglicans (the Church of England) caused to be printed a set of 39 articles of religion and one of those articles was this:
XXVII. Of Baptism

Baptism is not only a sign of profession, and mark of difference, whereby Christian men are discerned from others that be not christened, but it is also a sign of Regeneration or new Birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive Baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of forgiveness of sin, and of our adoption to be the sons of God by the Holy Ghost, are visibly signed and sealed; Faith is confirmed, and Grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God. The Baptism of young Children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the institution of Christ.
Is this still believed among Anglicans?

In any case baptism is an inextricable component of salvation and the question raised by Josiah (the question being "who is the saviour?") is answered in the teaching of the Catholic Church about baptism - and elsewhere too.
 
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Josiah

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Pretty slippery dodge...

Nope, just not contradicting the rest of the text... not ripping it out of context, making it contradict the rest of what is said, twisting a mutilating it.


.
 

MoreCoffee

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Josiah posted an interesting passage. It was:
We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavour to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. By Faith, or by Works of the Law? O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?​
Brother Arsenios pointed to the bold underlined portion of the passage to make a point about seeking to be justified. Josiah appears to think that brother Arsenios was mishandling the passage. It does not appear that Josiah's claim is right. It is clear that saint Paul is writing about what "we" did when he wrote But if, in our endeavour to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners ...

What do Protestant commentaries say about that part of the passage?

Albert Barnes says:
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ - The connection here is not very clear, and the sense of the verse is somewhat obscure. Rosenmuller supposes that this is an objection of a Jew, supposing that where the Law of Moses is not observed there is no rule of life, and that therefore there must be sin; and that since the doctrine of justification by faith taught that there was no necessity of obeying the ceremonial law of Moses, therefore Christ, who had introduced that system, must be regarded as the author and encourager of sin. To me it seems probable that Paul here has reference to an objection which has in all ages been brought against the doctrine of justification by faith, and which seems to have existed in his time, that the doctrine leads to licentiousness. The objections are that it does not teach the necessity of the observance of the Law in order to acceptance with God. That it pronounces a man justified and accepted who is a violator of the Law. That his acceptance does not depend on moral character.

That it releases him from the obligation of law, and that it teaches that a man may be saved though he does not conform to law. These objections existed early, and have been found everywhere where the doctrine of justification by faith has been preached. I regard this verse, therefore, as referring to these objections, and not as being especially the objection of a Jew. The idea is, “You seek to be justified by faith without obeying the Law. You professedly reject that, and do not hold that it is necessary to yield obedience to it. If now it shall turn out that you are sinners; that your lives are not holy; that you are free from the wholesome restraint of the Law, and are given up to lives of sin, will it not follow that Christ is the cause of it; that he taught it; and that the system which he introduced is responsible for it? And is not the gospel therefore responsible for introducing a system that frees from the restraint of the Law, and introduces universal licentiousness?” To this Paul replies by stating distinctly that the gospel has no such tendency, and particularly by referring in the following verses to his own case, and to the effect of the doctrine of justification on his own heart and life.

We ourselves are found sinners - If it turns out that we are sinners, or if others discover by undoubted demonstration that we lead lives of sin; if they see us given up to a lawless life, and find us practising all kinds of evil; if it shall be seen not only that we are not pardoned and made better by the gospel, but are actually made worse, and are freed from all moral restraint.​
The point that brother Arsenios made is that it is "we" who are "seeking to be justified in Christ". It is our endeavour. But Josiah disagrees. Who then is it, Josiah, that is seeking to be justified in Christ?
 

Josiah

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Let Josiah say what Lutherans believe about salvation and baptism.

This thread is about salvation, not Baptism. We have threads on baptism .

No, Lutherans do NOT hold that the DEAD gain life/faith/Holy Spirit by the good work of baptizing themselves, so no, we don't hold that Baptism is a good work that the Dead perform and God thus holds that life/faith/Holy Spirit has been merited - making Jesus irrelevant and not the Savior. We DO hold that Baptism is a "Means of Grace" whereby GOD (not self) WORKS (not self) to GIVE (not self earn) God's free GIFT.

Now, you MAY be one of those modern, uber-liberal Catholics who hold that the Reformation was a horrible mistake by the RCC to which it owes all Christians an apology since actually Luther was RIGHT - he simply called this "grace" (as the Bible does) but STRESSING (in a way the RCC perfectfully and obviously understood) applied to NARROW Justification and the RCC calls this "initial grace" (or a host of other non-biblical words) - in other words, that the RCC is guity of splitting itself over what it KNEW was just a WORD GAME it itself invented.... and now these liberal Catholics insist - after 500 years - it's time for the RCC to admit it knowingly commited a farse game and knew all along that Luther was doing as he claimed - actually asserting the historic Catholic position, the RCC simply playing a word game to protect the heretical Indulgence sellers. I know that spin.... I just don't accept it, I don 't have that low of an opinion of your denomination. But yes, there were many who thought the 500th Anniversary of all this WOULD bring just such an apology from the RCC. I always felt this was absurd and of course, it didn't happen.


Friend.... AGAIN.... both "sides" in this went to enormous lengths to make it abundantly clear what the issue was, that it was NOT - not at all, not a bit, not in any sense, a difference in what a CHRISTIAN (one with faith, one with spiritual life, one with the Holy Spirit) should and should not do. Lutherans and Catholics even agreed that a CHRISTIAN can destroy his gift of faith by seriously neglecting that. Nope. The SOLE issue of contention - over which the RCC chose to split itself - was how that faith/life/justification comes about - whether it is a gift of God or a synergtistic, Pelagian process of self adequately tapping the enabling help of the RCC, the RCC's saints, the RCC's Sacraments, the RCC's Treasury of merits, etc. Now, IF you are trying to say, "Luther was right! And God often GIVES justification EXCLUSIVELY because of Christ and does so also in Baptism" then good - welcome to Lutheranism and you need to apologize for 500+ years of condemning the Lutheran position, splitting western Christianity, excommunicating so many, and the confusing MESS that Catholics (like you) keep echoing to repudiate a position you actually agree with. Time to apologize. But IMO, the Catholic Church does NOT agree that Jesus is the Savior, it holds that self saves self by adequately utilizing the empowering that the RC denomination offers.... I think one of my Catholic teachers expressed the RCC's position, "Jesus technically saves no one but rather makes it possible for everyone to save themselves." And another, "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what you do."


- Josiah




.
 

MoreCoffee

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This thread is about salvation, ...

I know. I created this thread. And it is about salvation. Baptism is an inextricable component of salvation. And you asked "who is the saviour?" to which I replied that Jesus Christ is the saviour. I also added that the passage from the CCC on baptism answers the question that you asked by affirming that Jesus Christ is the saviour.
 

MoreCoffee

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...
No, Lutherans do NOT hold that the DEAD gain life/faith/Holy Spirit by the good work of baptizing themselves...

That is good. I would have been shocked if Lutherans taught that people were to baptise themselves. But what do Lutherans think happens when a person (infant or adult) is baptised by a pastor as a sacrament? Do lutherans believe that their baptism is a sign/proof that the baptised person is born again, a member of the church, and saved as well as a recipient of the gift of the Holy Spirit?

 

Josiah

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what do Lutherans think happens when a person (infant or adult) is baptised by a pastor as a sacrament? Do lutherans believe that their baptism is a sign/proof that the baptised person is born again, a member of the church, and saved as well as a recipient of the gift of the Holy Spirit?


AGAIN, Lutherans do not teach that justication is the reward for a DEAD person baptizing himself, that justification is earned by the Dead one performing that good work for himself. Lutherans hold that Jesus is the Savior and that Jesus does the saving (in the sense of narrow justification). AGAIN, Lutherans hold that Baptism is a "Means of Grace" which GOD may use to GIVE justification (even to one who is sleeping and contributing NOTHING WHATSOEVER).


Now, you MAY be one of those modern, uber-liberal Catholics who hold that the Reformation was a horrible mistake by the RCC to which it owes all Christians an apology since actually Luther was RIGHT - he simply called this "grace" (as the Bible does) but STRESSING (in a way the RCC perfectfully and obviously understood) applied to NARROW Justification and the RCC calls this "initial grace" (or a host of other non-biblical words) - in other words, that the RCC is guity of splitting itself over what it KNEW was just a WORD GAME it itself invented.... and now these liberal Catholics insist - after 500 years - it's time for the RCC to admit it knowingly commited a farse game and knew all along that Luther was doing as he claimed - actually asserting the historic Catholic position, the RCC simply playing a word game to protect the heretical Indulgence sellers. I know that spin.... I just don't accept it, I don 't have that low of an opinion of your denomination. But yes, there were many who thought the 500th Anniversary of all this WOULD bring just such an apology from the RCC . I always felt this was absurd and of course, it didn't happen.


Friend.... AGAIN.... both "sides" in this went to enormous lengths to make it abundantly clear what the issue was, that it was NOT - not at all, not a bit, not in any sense, a difference in what a CHRISTIAN (one with faith, one with spiritual life, one with the Holy Spirit) should and should not do. Lutherans and Catholics even agreed that a CHRISTIAN can destroy his gift of faith by seriously neglecting that. Nope. The SOLE issue of contention - over which the RCC
chose to split itself - was how that faith/life/justification comes about - whether it is a gift of God or a synergtistic, Pelagian process of self adequately tapping the enabling help of the RCC, the RCC's saints, the RCC's Sacraments, the RCC's Treasury of merits, etc. Now, IF you are trying to say, "Luther was right! And God often GIVES justification EXCLUSIVELY because of Christ and does so also in Baptism" then good - welcome to Lutheranism and you need to apologize for 500+ years of condemning the Lutheran position, splitting western Christianity, excommunicating so many, and the confusing MESS that Catholics (like you) keep echoing to repudiate a position you actually agree with. Time to apologize. But IMO, the Catholic Church does NOT agree that Jesus is the Savior, it holds that self saves self by adequately utilizing the empowering that the RC denomination offers.... I think one of my Catholic teachers expressed the RCC's position, "Jesus technically saves no one but rather makes it possible for everyone to save themselves." And another, "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what you do."




- Josiah



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MoreCoffee

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AGAIN, Lutherans do not teach that justication is the reward for a DEAD person baptizing himself

It's a pity you need straw men to make your posts.

I would have been shocked if Lutherans taught that people were to baptise themselves. But what do Lutherans think happens when a person (infant or adult) is baptised by a pastor as a sacrament? Do lutherans believe that their baptism is a sign/proof that the baptised person is born again, a member of the church, and saved as well as a recipient of the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Is this guy a Lutheran presenting Lutheran beliefs?


Because he keeps saying what the CCC says about baptism and salvation.
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

Now, you MAY be one of those modern, uber-liberal Catholics who hold that the Reformation was a horrible mistake by the RCC to which it owes all Christians an apology since actually Luther was RIGHT - he simply called this "grace" (as the Bible does) but STRESSING (in a way the RCC fully and obviously understood) applied to NARROW Justification and the RCC calls this "initial grace" (or a host of other non-biblical words) - in other words, that the RCC is guity of splitting itself over what it KNEW was just a WORD GAME it itself invented.... and now these liberal Catholics insist - after 500 years - it's time for the RCC to admit it knowingly commited a farse game and knew all along that Luther was doing as he claimed - actually asserting the historic Catholic position, the RCC simply playing a word game to protect the heretical Indulgence sellers. I know that spin.... I just don't accept it, I don 't have that low of an opinion of your denomination. But yes, there were many who thought the 500th Anniversary of all this WOULD bring just such an apology from the RCC . I always felt this was absurd and of course, it didn't happen.


Friend.... AGAIN.... both "sides" in this went to enormous lengths to make it abundantly clear what the issue was, that it was NOT - not at all, not a bit, not in any sense, a difference in what a CHRISTIAN (one with faith, one with spiritual life, one with the Holy Spirit) should and should not do. Lutherans and Catholics even agreed that a CHRISTIAN can destroy his gift of faith by seriously neglecting that. Nope. The SOLE issue of contention - over which the RCC chose to split itself - was how that faith/life/justification comes about - whether it is a gift of God or a synergtistic, Pelagian process of self adequately tapping the enabling help of the RCC, the RCC's saints, the RCC's Sacraments, the RCC's Treasury of merits, etc. Now, IF you are trying to say, "Luther was right! And God often GIVES justification EXCLUSIVELY because of Christ and does so also in Baptism" then good - welcome to Lutheranism and you need to apologize for 500+ years of condemning the Lutheran position, splitting western Christianity, excommunicating so many, and the confusing MESS that Catholics (like you) keep echoing to repudiate a position you actually agree with. Time to apologize. But IMO, the Catholic Church does NOT agree that Jesus is the Savior, it holds that self saves self by adequately utilizing the empowering that the RC denomination offers.... I think one of my Catholic teachers expressed the RCC 's position, "Jesus technically saves no one but rather makes it possible for everyone to save themselves." And another, "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what you do."



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Because he (the Lutheran) keeps saying what the CCC says about salvation.




Then the RCC owes all Christianity a HUGE apology.... and all our Catholic teachers were wrong.... and you need to explain why - since you came to this website - have been rebuking, ridiculing and rejecting the Lutheran stance on this - at every possible point and opportunity, IF what you SUDDENLY claim is true - that Luther and Lutherans are correct on the issue of salvation.





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MoreCoffee

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Will you answer the question put to you? Okay, you do not need to. The Lutheran pastor answered for Lutheran teaching. Your voice is not needed. It would have been good to see an affirmation from you but none is given thus far. The reason I raised the question is that you objected to discussing baptism and its theology in a thread about salvation. Evidently you do not believe that baptism is an inextricable part of salvation. But if you do in fact believe that baptism is an inextricable part of salvation then your earlier objection against raising it was a ploy but nothing substantive worth taking seriously.

Jesus is the saviour. That is the answer to the question that you asked to receive. The Catholic Church explains that in its teaching on Baptism as well as in other teaching. Jesus is Lord and saviour.

Scripture is one insofar as the Word of God is one. God’s plan of salvation is one, and the divine inspiration of both Testaments is one. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfils the Old; the two shed light on each other.

Faith is the supernatural virtue which is necessary for salvation. It is a free gift of God and is accessible to all who humbly seek it. The act of faith is a human act, that is, an act of the intellect of a person - prompted by the will moved by God - who freely assents to divine truth. Faith is also certain because it is founded on the Word of God; it works “through charity” (Galatians 5:6); and it continually grows through listening to the Word of God and through prayer. It is, even now, a foretaste of the joys of heaven.

The Church, although made up of persons who have diverse languages, cultures, and rites, nonetheless professes with a united voice the one faith that was received from the one Lord and that was passed on by the one Apostolic Tradition. She confesses one God alone, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and points to one way of salvation. Therefore we believe with one heart and one soul all that is contained in the Word of God, handed down or written, and which is proposed by the Church as divinely revealed.

For us men and for our salvation, the Son of God became incarnate in the womb of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. He did so to reconcile us sinners with God, to have us learn of God’s infinite love, to be our model of holiness and to make us “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4).
 

Josiah

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MoreCoffee said:
Because he (the Lutheran) keeps saying what the CCC says about salvation.



Josiah said:
Then the RCCowes all Christianity a HUGE apology.... and all our Catholic teachers were wrong.... and you need to explain why - since you came to this website - have been rebuking, ridiculing and rejecting the Lutheran stance on this - at every possible point and opportunity, IF what you SUDDENLY claim is true - that Luther and Lutherans are correct on the issue of salvation

.


Whatever diversion you need, but the bottom line is NOW - after many months and hundreds of posts debating, rejecting, ridiculing the Lutheran stance on salvation, NOW, suddenly - you claim Luther and Lutherans are RIGHT on salvation.

You may denounce your denomination stance, its actions in the Reformation, it's actions for the past 500 years - and affirm that actually, Lutherans are RIGHT. And that's delightful, but I think you have some explaining to do and perhaps some apologies to make. And IF you are right that actually the RCC thinks Lutherans are CORRECT on the issue of salvation, then you stand with those tiny number of uber-liberal Catholics who agree - the RCC made and is making a HUGE mistake and is 500 years overdo in making an apology - to Luther, to Protestants, to Catholics (for splitting the denomination and for misstating things for 500+ years) and indeed to all of Christiandom.


But I think - while you are SUDDENLY perhaps enlightened - I think the RCC did not lie in the Reformation nor now, but that it very fundamentally and passionately disagrees with you and holds that Lutherans are horribly wrong (not "correct") on this issue, it passionately rejects the very concept of Jesus as the Savior and indeed holds just as you have stated since you came here, just as the many quotes you've given state, just as our Catholic teachers have said vis-a-vis Justification; "God helps those who help themselves." "Jesus technically saves no one but makes it possible for all to save themselves." "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself though it by what you do." "God puts sufficient 'gas' in your 'tank' so that you can get yourself where you need to be." I think you have so passionately rejected and repudiated and denounced the Lutheran position for years now NOT because you think it's correct but because you at least thought it was wrong (although y9u may have had an epiphany, a conversion - I'll credit Albion or MennoSota with being the tool in that)



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Albion

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Let Josiah say what Lutherans believe about salvation and baptism.
He has done that. The question was why you should not have taken it for what he said rather than recasting it into something that a Baptist or Pentecostal Christian might believe about these matters.
 

Josiah

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Thank you for your time, Josiah. God bless you too.


Thank you for the public declaration that Lutherans are correct on the topic of salvation. I don't know if you've ALWAYS held that (and just pretended otherwise) or if a conversion happened, but I rejoice in your affirmation. God bless you.

Now, we can shift our focus to what to do about your denomination's so bold declaration for 500 years that we are wrong on this central, keystone issue of Christianity.



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