Salvation

[MennoSota]

The grace is in the works. Grace does great things but when it ceases to work it ceases to exist.

MC, grace is in God. Works will be an effect of God's grace. The saints will persevere because God will cause them to persevere.

 

[Josiah]

Again, it is helpful to remember that words aren't often meant the same way - and that can lead to misunderstandings (sometimes intentionally)....


In the context of Justification, Protestants believe the word "grace" means God's merciful, free gifts in light of Christ... His love. Catholics (and Mormons, incidently) hold that in the context of Justification, the word "grace" means empowering/enabling. Our Catholic teachers defined it this way: "Grace is the divine 'gas' that God puts in your 'tank' so that YOU can get YOURSELF where YOU need to be." These are very different meanings! No one denies the word CAN have the essential Catholic meaning, but Protestants note that such is in the context of Sanctification/Discipleship, not Justification. THUS, Catholics can (and often do) say, "We are justified by grace as a free gift" even "we are justified by grace alone" but they MEAN nearly the opposite of what Protestants mean by the same verbatim words. This was noted even during the Reformation as both Catholics and Lutherans went to enormous lengths to define exactly how they meant the words. THUS, it is important for Protestants to "read" what Catholics say to realize the meaning they give to the words.... and for Catholics to "read" what Protestants say to realize the meaning they give.



And of course, it all comes down to a VERY SIMPLE point, the point on which all Christianity stands or falls, the point on which all Christianity is founded: WHO IS THE SAVIOR? There are only two options: Self or Christ... trusting in who we see on the Cross or who we see in the mirror.


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "Me!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. No Christian on the planet or in all Christian history has EVER held that the CHRISTIAN (the one justified... the one WITH the free gift of faith - spiritual life - Holy Spirit) is not to respond to salvation with a life that reveals God's heart and nature, what CHRISTIANS are to do and not to do has never been in dispute. The issue here is JUSTIFICATION, the essential issue of Christianity. ALL religions teach that believers should be good people, where we differ is in the question of justification. And so the question is this: WHO IS THE SAVIOR? If you answer Jesus - you are a Christian. Any other answer (or changing the question to "Who is the HELPER or POSSIBILITY-MAKER or DOOR OPENER or PART SAVIOR (the part that is ineffectual)" then, well....



- Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

Well stated, Josiah.

Again, it is helpful to remember that words aren't often meant the same way - and that can lead to misunderstandings (sometimes intentionally)....


In the context of Justification, Protestants believe the word "grace" means God's merciful, free gifts in light of Christ... His love. Catholics (and Mormons, incidently) hold that in the context of Justification, the word "grace" means empowering/enabling. Our Catholic teachers defined it this way: "Grace is the divine 'gas' that God puts in your 'tank' so that YOU can get YOURSELF where YOU need to be." These are very different meanings! No one denies the word CAN have the essential Catholic meaning, but Protestants note that such is in the context of Sanctification/Discipleship, not Justification. THUS, Catholics can (and often do) say, "We are justified by grace as a free gift" even "we are justified by grace alone" but they MEAN nearly the opposite of what Protestants mean by the same verbatim words. This was noted even during the Reformation as both Catholics and Lutherans went to enormous lengths to define exactly how they meant the words. THUS, it is important for Protestants to "read" what Catholics say to realize the meaning they give to the words.... and for Catholics to "read" what Protestants say to realize the meaning they give.



And of course, it all comes down to a VERY SIMPLE point, the point on which all Christianity stands or falls, the point on which all Christianity is founded: WHO IS THE SAVIOR? There are only two options: Self or Christ... trusting in who we see on the Cross or who we see in the mirror.


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "Me!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. No Christian on the planet or in all Christian history has EVER held that the CHRISTIAN (the one justified... the one WITH the free gift of faith - spiritual life - Holy Spirit) is not to respond to salvation with a life that reveals God's heart and nature, what CHRISTIANS are to do and not to do has never been in dispute. The issue here is JUSTIFICATION, the essential issue of Christianity. ALL religions teach that believers should be good people, where we differ is in the question of justification. And so the question is this: WHO IS THE SAVIOR? If you answer Jesus - you are a Christian. Any other answer (or changing the question to "Who is the HELPER or POSSIBILITY-MAKER or DOOR OPENER or PART SAVIOR (the part that is ineffectual)" then, well....



- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
In the context of Justification, Protestants believe the word "grace" means God's merciful, free gifts in light of Christ... His love. Catholics (and Mormons, incidently) hold that in the context of Justification, the word "grace" means empowering/enabling....

The Catholic Church does not teach that grace is empowering/enabling. Your claim about what "Catholics hold" is erroneous.

 

[Albion]

It probably will be necessary for us to get a good definition of enabling or empowering in order to settle this.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/grace-what-it-is-and-what-it-does

 

[MoreCoffee]

It probably will be necessary for us to get a good definition of enabling or empowering in order to settle this.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/grace-what-it-is-and-what-it-does

What part (or parts) of that web page do you think is Catholic Church teaching and what part or parts (if any) are not?

Justification and Sanctification

We’ve mentioned that we need sanctifying grace in our souls if we’re to be equipped for heaven. Another way of saying this is that we need to be justified. "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11).

The Protestant misunderstanding of justification lies in its claim that justification is merely a forensic (i.e., purely declaratory) legal declaration by God that the sinner is now "justified." If you "accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior," he declares you justified, though he doesn’t really make you justified or sanctified; your soul is in the same state as it was before; but you’re eligible for heaven.

A person is expected thereafter to undergo sanctification (don’t make the mistake of thinking Protestants say sanctification is unimportant), but the degree of sanctification achieved is, ultimately, immaterial to the question of whether you’ll get to heaven. You will, since you’re justified; and justification as a purely legal declaration is what counts. Unfortunately, this scheme is a legal fiction. It amounts to God telling an untruth by saying the sinner has been justified, while all along he knows that the sinner is not really justified, but is only covered under the "cloak" of Christ’s righteousness. But, what God declares, he does. "o shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it" (Is. 55:11). So, when God declares you justified, he makes you justified. Any justification that is not woven together with sanctification is no justification at all.

The Bible’s teaching on justification is much more nuanced. Paul indicates that there is a real transformation which occurs in justification, that it is not just a change in legal status. This is seen, for example, in Romans 6:7, which every standard translation—Protestant ones included—renders as "For he who has died is freed from sin" (or a close variant).

Paul is obviously speaking about being freed from sin in an experiential sense, for this is the passage where he is at pains to stress the fact that we have made a decisive break with sin that must be reflected in our behavior: "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" (Rom. 6:1-2). "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness" (6:12-13).

The context here is what Protestants call sanctification, the process of being made holy. Sanctification is the sense in which we are said to be "freed from sin" in this passage. Yet in the Greek text, what is actually said is "he who has died has been justified from sin." The term in Greek (dikaioo) is the word for being justified, yet the context indicates sanctification, which is why every standard translation renders the word "freed" rather than "justified." This shows that, in Paul’s mind, justification involves a real transformation, a real, experiential freeing from sin, not just a change of legal status. And it shows that, the way he uses terms, there is not the rigid wall between justification and sanctification that Protestants imagine.

According to Scripture, sanctification and justification aren’t just one-time events, but are ongoing processes in the life of the believer. Both can be spoken of as past-time events, as Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 6:11: "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." Sanctification is also a present, ongoing process, as the author of Hebrews notes: "For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified" (Heb. 10:14). In regard to justification also being an on-going process, compare Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6 with both Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:1-4 and James 2:21-23; Genesis 22:1-18. In these passages, Abraham's justification is advanced on three separate occasions.

 

[Josiah]

The Catholic Church does not teach that grace is empowering/enabling. Your claim about what "Catholics hold" is erroneous.

IMO, The RC denomination "teaches" everything on justification - it's all one HUGE, entangled, muddy, confused, watered-down MESS. But yes, you name it - it probably has been taught by the RCC at some point. I have related to Catholic apologists EXACTLY, VERBATIM what Luther taught on this - and was told that is the RC denomination's position, until I pointed out the RCC split itself over that very teaching and that what I just told them was VERBATIM from Martin Luther at meetings with Catholics that he was condemned for. Modern Catholics (iike you) are simply more apt to dodge and circumvent the whole issue - ignoring the Gospel, ignoring Justification entirely, and just skipping to Sanctification so as to not conflict with your own denomination.

But here is VERBATIM what I - as a Catholic - was CONSISTENTLY taught by official Catholic teachers in the context of Justification:
"God HELPS those who help THEMSELVES."
"Jesus technically saves no one but makes it possible for each to save himself."
"Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you got to get yourself through it by what you do."
"Grace is the divine 'gas' that God puts in your 'tank' so that YOU can get YOURSELF where you need to be."
When most Catholics speak/write/post - the Gospel seems to horrify them and they will ridicule, condemn, rebuke it (or just ignore it and hope others will too). Witness this thread and all the others on this topic at CH. What we tend to get when discussing justification is: "Jesus is the Savior BUT....." (and what comes after the "BUT...." negates what is before it in common Catholic teaching).


What I was taught (and virtually every Catholic known to me - and there are hundreds of them, many related to me) - is that Jesus opened the door, Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE (and He is greatly praised for this) but we save ourselves by what we do - OUR love, OUR works, OUR obedience - which we CANNOT do (even in tiny part) on our own but we get divine HELP (grace... empowering) via the exactly SEVEN Sacraments owned and administered by the RCC, the official saints of the moment as recognized by the singular RCC, the Treasury of Merits owned and doled out by the RCC, the Mother of the RCC - these are HELPERS (Jesus is occasionallly also mentioned as a HELPER but usually not). Of course, as I learned, this is the soteriology of every NON-Christian religion: God saves no one but makes it possible for everyone to be saved - but WE have to will it and adequately "tap" and apply the HELP God offers: God is the OFFERER, the HELPER, the POSSIBILITY-MAKER but not the Savior (not even A Savior).


But my point was that some Catholics tend to TALK like a Protestant (while they ridicule the Protestant position on this!) but what they typically MEAN is not what Protestants mean .... same words, virtually opposite meanings. And this happens because of the Catholic propensity to so heavily water down everything, confuse, entangle, mix up, blend Gospel and Law, Christ and self, justification and sanctification. On this point, Catholicism is too often a watery, muddy, entangled, confusing MESS that often comes off sounding more like all the other world religions than Christianity. I recently read a revealing point: In the middle ages, the RC denomination began to take RIGHT things (biblical, solid teachings).... put them in a blender, add oceans of water, press "high", run it for centuries, and then pour out a blended concoction of its own creation. What the Reformation did was untangle the mess and remove all the water - insisting what we have are DIFFERENT "ingredients". To use another analogy, it is as it the RC denomination took truth, added some stuff, and baked it into a new thing. The Reformation kept it as God revealed it - truths. Important, because the new "baked good" of the RC's making is foundationally in conflict with the very centerpiece, the cornerstone of Christianity: the point on which Christianity is built: JESUS (100%, not self, not even .01%) IS..... THE (one and only, all-sufficient).... SAVIOR (not helper, not offerer, not possibility-maker, not gate opener). It was noted we even know WHY the RC denomination took it upon itself to bake up its creation - not some biblical or philosophical reason but the FEAR that the Gospel would make people comfortable with sin and disobedient to the RC denomination.




- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

IMO, The RC denomination "teaches" ...

I did not ask for your opinion. Your opinion is not relevant. I asked about Catholic Church teaching. What is actually dogmatically taught by the Catholic Church.

So once again The Catholic Church does not teach that grace is empowering/enabling. Your claim about what "Catholics hold" is erroneous.

 

[Albion]

Are we supposed to think that your opinion, having been given several times here--or shouting down someone with a contrary opinion--is outside that judgment? If so, why?.

 

[Albion]

What part (or parts) of that web page do you think is Catholic Church teaching and what part or parts (if any) are not?

​

Catholic teaching:

"It’s much the same with your soul. In its natural state, it isn’t fit for heaven. It doesn’t have the right equipment, and if you die with your soul in its natural state, heaven won’t be for you. What you need to live there is supernatural life, not just natural life. That supernatural life is called sanctifying grace. The reason you need sanctifying grace to be able to live in heaven is because you will be in perfect and absolute union with God, the source of all life (cf. Gal. 2:19, 1 Pet. 3:18).

"If sanctifying grace dwells in your soul when you die, then you have the equipment you need, and you can live in heaven (though you may need to be purified first in purgatory; cf. 1 Cor. 3:12–16). If it doesn’t dwell in your soul when you die—in other words, if your soul is spiritually dead by being in the state of mortal sin (Gal. 5:19-21)— you cannot live in heaven. You then have to face an eternity of spiritual death: the utter separation of your spirit from God (Eph. 2:1, 2:5, 4:18). The worst part of this eternal separation will be that you yourself would have caused it to be that way.
……………………..

"You can obtain supernatural life by yielding to actual graces you receive. God keeps giving you these divine pushes, and all you have to do is go along.

"For instance, he moves you to repentance, and if you take the hint you can find yourself in the
confessional, where the guilt for your sins is remitted (John 20:21–23). Through the sacrament of penance, through your reconciliation to God, you receive sanctifying grace. But you can lose it again by sinning mortally (1 John 5:16–17).
…………………………………..

"When you lose supernatural life, there’s nothing you can do on your own to regain it. You’re reduced to the merely natural life again, and no natural act can merit a supernatural reward. You can merit a supernatural reward only by being made able to act above your nature, which you can do only if you have help—grace.

"To regain supernatural life, you have to receive actual graces from God. Think of these as helping graces. Such graces differ from sanctifying grace in that they aren’t a quality of the soul and don’t abide in it. Rather, actual graces enable the soul to perform some supernatural act, such as an act of faith or repentance. If the soul responds to actual grace and makes the appropriate supernatural act, it again receives supernatural life. "


That certainly sounds like enabling.

 

[Josiah]

Catholic teaching:

"It’s much the same with your soul. In its natural state, it isn’t fit for heaven. It doesn’t have the right equipment, and if you die with your soul in its natural state, heaven won’t be for you. What you need to live there is supernatural life, not just natural life. That supernatural life is called sanctifying grace. The reason you need sanctifying grace to be able to live in heaven is because you will be in perfect and absolute union with God, the source of all life (cf. Gal. 2:19, 1 Pet. 3:18).

"If sanctifying grace dwells in your soul when you die, then you have the equipment you need, and you can live in heaven (though you may need to be purified first in purgatory; cf. 1 Cor. 3:12–16). If it doesn’t dwell in your soul when you die—in other words, if your soul is spiritually dead by being in the state of mortal sin (Gal. 5:19-21)— you cannot live in heaven. You then have to face an eternity of spiritual death: the utter separation of your spirit from God (Eph. 2:1, 2:5, 4:18). The worst part of this eternal separation will be that you yourself would have caused it to be that way.
……………………..

"You can obtain supernatural life by yielding to actual graces you receive. God keeps giving you these divine pushes, and all you have to do is go along.

"For instance, he moves you to repentance, and if you take the hint you can find yourself in the
confessional, where the guilt for your sins is remitted (John 20:21–23). Through the sacrament of penance, through your reconciliation to God, you receive sanctifying grace. But you can lose it again by sinning mortally (1 John 5:16–17).
…………………………………..

"When you lose supernatural life, there’s nothing you can do on your own to regain it. You’re reduced to the merely natural life again, and no natural act can merit a supernatural reward. You can merit a supernatural reward only by being made able to act above your nature, which you can do only if you have help—grace.

"To regain supernatural life, you have to receive actual graces from God. Think of these as helping graces. Such graces differ from sanctifying grace in that they aren’t a quality of the soul and don’t abide in it. Rather, actual graces enable the soul to perform some supernatural act, such as an act of faith or repentance. If the soul responds to actual grace and makes the appropriate supernatural act, it again receives supernatural life. "


That certainly sounds like enabling.

Yup.




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yup.

Nope. The Church teaches that Baptism is the gateway to salvation and life in union & communion with Jesus Christ. It is so very easy to find what the Catholic Church teaches about baptism. All that is needed is to open the CCC and take a look.

VII. The Grace of Baptism

1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptised, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67
​

"A new creature"

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and coheir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptised sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.​

Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
​

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body."72

1268 The baptised have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptised belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptised person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78

1270 "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptised] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79
​

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptised are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81
​

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptised is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.​

64 Cf. ⇒ Acts 2:38; ⇒ Jn 3:5[ETML:C/].
65 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1316.
66 Council of Trent (1546): DS 1515.
67 ⇒ 2 Tim 2:5.
68 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:17; ⇒ 2 Pet 1:4; cf. ⇒ Gal 4:5-7.
69 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:15; ⇒ 12:27; ⇒ Rom 8:17.
70 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19.
71 ⇒ Eph 4:25.
72 ⇒ 1 Cor 12:13.
73 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:5.
74 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:9.
75 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19; ⇒ 2 Cor 5:15.
76 ⇒ Heb 13:17.
77 Cf. ⇒ Eph 5:21; ⇒ 1 Cor 16:15-16; ⇒ 1 Thess 5:12-13; ⇒ Jn 13:12-15.
78 Cf. LG 37; ⇒ CIC, cann. 208 223; CCEO, can. 675:2.
79 LG 11; cf. LG 17; AG 7; 23.
80 UR 3.
81 UR 22 # 2.
82 Cf. ⇒ Rom 8:29; Council of Trent (1547): DS 1609-1619.
83 Cf. LG 11.
84 Cf. LG 10.
85 St. Augustine, Ep. 98, 5: PL 33, 362; ⇒ Eph 4:30; cf. ⇒ 1:13-14; ⇒ 2 Cor 1:21-22.
86 St. Irenaeus, Dem ap. 3: SCh 62, 32.
87 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 97.

 

[Josiah]

Nope. The Church teaches that Baptism is the gateway to salvation and life in union & communion with Jesus Christ. It is so very easy to find what the Catholic Church teaches about baptism. All that is needed is to open the CCC and take a look.

VII. The Grace of Baptism

1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptised, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67
​

"A new creature"

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and coheir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptised sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.​

Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
​

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body."72

1268 The baptised have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptised belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptised person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78

1270 "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptised] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79
​

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptised are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81
​

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptised is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.​

64 Cf. ⇒ Acts 2:38; ⇒ Jn 3:5[ETML:C/].
65 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1316.
66 Council of Trent (1546): DS 1515.
67 ⇒ 2 Tim 2:5.
68 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:17; ⇒ 2 Pet 1:4; cf. ⇒ Gal 4:5-7.
69 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:15; ⇒ 12:27; ⇒ Rom 8:17.
70 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19.
71 ⇒ Eph 4:25.
72 ⇒ 1 Cor 12:13.
73 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:5.
74 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:9.
75 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19; ⇒ 2 Cor 5:15.
76 ⇒ Heb 13:17.
77 Cf. ⇒ Eph 5:21; ⇒ 1 Cor 16:15-16; ⇒ 1 Thess 5:12-13; ⇒ Jn 13:12-15.
78 Cf. LG 37; ⇒ CIC, cann. 208 223; CCEO, can. 675:2.
79 LG 11; cf. LG 17; AG 7; 23.
80 UR 3.
81 UR 22 # 2.
82 Cf. ⇒ Rom 8:29; Council of Trent (1547): DS 1609-1619.
83 Cf. LG 11.
84 Cf. LG 10.
85 St. Augustine, Ep. 98, 5: PL 33, 362; ⇒ Eph 4:30; cf. ⇒ 1:13-14; ⇒ 2 Cor 1:21-22.
86 St. Irenaeus, Dem ap. 3: SCh 62, 32.
87 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 97.

Typical dodge. We ARE left wondering why....


This thread is not about baptism, it's about salvation (and especially the highly disputed part - Justification). See what Albion, MennoSota and myself have posted to you.


It's not really hard, my friend. All you need to do is answer the question: WHO IS THE SAVIOR (in this sense of Justification)? But you've very carefully dodged this since you came to this website.

What we get is a LOT of dodging. And a LOT of watering down, entangling, blending, mixing up, confusing Gospel and Law, Christ and self, Justification and Sanctification.... a LOT of rebuking the Protestant position while dodging the Catholic position.

There should be NO issue MORE clear to a Christian than this one. Yet, since the middle ages, there is no subject on which Catholics seem typically to be more fuzzy, more confused, more mixed up, more unsure.... and too often what gets expressed is a denial of Jesus as the Savior and something that at times is much closer to the other religions of the world on this point than to biblical Christianity. And that IS troubling. IMO. Christianity stands or falls on this point... it is the keystone of Christianity. Where are we to look - to the Christ on the Cross or to self in the mirror? Does God SAVE or just empower us to save ourselves?



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Typical dodge. We ARE left wondering why....


This thread is not about baptism, it's about salvation ,,,

Baptism is an inextricable component of salvation. Don't Lutherans believe that?

I guess they don't since you are a Lutheran and are objecting to baptism being in the discussion about salvation.

Catholic teaching is not like Protestant teaching, for Catholic Christians the sacraments and salvation are not divorced nor are they merely symbolic as some denominations of Protestants say.

 

[Albion]

Baptism is an inextricable component of salvation. Don't Lutherans believe that?

I guess they don't since you are a Lutheran and are objecting to baptism being in the discussion about salvation.

Catholic teaching is not like Protestant teaching, for Catholic Christians the sacraments and salvation are not divorced nor are they merely symbolic as some denominations of Protestants say.

This sounds very much like you are attempting to stick Josiah with beliefs or teachings that have nothing to do with him. :nono:

 

[MoreCoffee]

This sounds very much like you are attempting to stick Josiah with beliefs or teachings that have nothing to do with him. :nono:

Catholic teaching is, as previously stated, that baptism is an inextricable component of salvation. Hence:

VII. The Grace of Baptism

1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptised, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67
​

"A new creature"

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and coheir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptised sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.​

Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
​

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body."72

1268 The baptised have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptised belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptised person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78

1270 "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptised] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79
​

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptised are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81
​

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptised is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.​

64 Cf. ⇒ Acts 2:38; ⇒ Jn 3:5[ETML:C/].
65 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1316.
66 Council of Trent (1546): DS 1515.
67 ⇒ 2 Tim 2:5.
68 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:17; ⇒ 2 Pet 1:4; cf. ⇒ Gal 4:5-7.
69 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:15; ⇒ 12:27; ⇒ Rom 8:17.
70 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19.
71 ⇒ Eph 4:25.
72 ⇒ 1 Cor 12:13.
73 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:5.
74 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:9.
75 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19; ⇒ 2 Cor 5:15.
76 ⇒ Heb 13:17.
77 Cf. ⇒ Eph 5:21; ⇒ 1 Cor 16:15-16; ⇒ 1 Thess 5:12-13; ⇒ Jn 13:12-15.
78 Cf. LG 37; ⇒ CIC, cann. 208 223; CCEO, can. 675:2.
79 LG 11; cf. LG 17; AG 7; 23.
80 UR 3.
81 UR 22 # 2.
82 Cf. ⇒ Rom 8:29; Council of Trent (1547): DS 1609-1619.
83 Cf. LG 11.
84 Cf. LG 10.
85 St. Augustine, Ep. 98, 5: PL 33, 362; ⇒ Eph 4:30; cf. ⇒ 1:13-14; ⇒ 2 Cor 1:21-22.
86 St. Irenaeus, Dem ap. 3: SCh 62, 32.
87 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 97.​

 

[Albion]

Catholic teaching is, as previously stated, that baptism is an inextricable component of salvation.

If you wish, but what the Catholic Church teaches on this matter was not the issue. I thought that highlighting the relevant words and passages in two colors would make the point clear enough.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you wish, but what the Catholic Church teaches on this matter was not the issue. I thought that highlighting the relevant words and passages in two colors would make the point clear enough.

My replies were primarily to questions raised by Josiah and he asked about salvation - which is the topic of this thread - so I replied with Catholic teaching about salvation - which is about baptism. Josiah offered his opinion about Catholic teaching based on what he says his teachers told him. Teachers are not the sources for Catholic teaching, hence the presentation of what the Catholic Church in fact teaches rather than the memories of Josiah's teacher's words.

 

[Arsenios]

Typical dodge....

Answer the question:
WHO IS THE SAVIOR (in this sense of Justification)?
But you've very carefully dodged this since you came to this website.

Does this answer your question?

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So God Justifies after Calling and Glorifies after Justification...

Yet here we have James asking rhetorically:

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works,
when she had received the messengers,
and had sent them out another way?

Are we not forced to conclude that God justifies according to deeds?
And God does not justify according to the works of the law?

Are you ever going to address Romans 8:30?

Or is that still on your personal dodge list?

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

… answer the question: WHO IS THE SAVIOR (in this sense of Justification)? ...

Jesus Christ, the Son of God and God in the flesh is the saviour and none other.

This answer has been given by me many times before. You never see it, it seems, so you ask and ask again and get the answer again and again and never seem to see it.

Perhaps it is not the answer that you want and so when it is given your eyes cannot see?

Take another look at what I said about baptism because it answers your question too.

VII. The Grace of Baptism

1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64

For the forgiveness of sins . . .

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptised, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ."66 Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."67
​

"A new creature"

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and coheir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptised sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.​

Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
​

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one body."72

1268 The baptised have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvellous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.

1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptised belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to "obey and submit" to the Church's leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptised person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78

1270 "Reborn as sons of God, [the baptised] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church" and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79
​

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptised are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81
​

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptised is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.​

64 Cf. ⇒ Acts 2:38; ⇒ Jn 3:5[ETML:C/].
65 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1316.
66 Council of Trent (1546): DS 1515.
67 ⇒ 2 Tim 2:5.
68 ⇒ 2 Cor 5:17; ⇒ 2 Pet 1:4; cf. ⇒ Gal 4:5-7.
69 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:15; ⇒ 12:27; ⇒ Rom 8:17.
70 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19.
71 ⇒ Eph 4:25.
72 ⇒ 1 Cor 12:13.
73 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:5.
74 ⇒ 1 Pet 2:9.
75 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19; ⇒ 2 Cor 5:15.
76 ⇒ Heb 13:17.
77 Cf. ⇒ Eph 5:21; ⇒ 1 Cor 16:15-16; ⇒ 1 Thess 5:12-13; ⇒ Jn 13:12-15.
78 Cf. LG 37; ⇒ CIC, cann. 208 223; CCEO, can. 675:2.
79 LG 11; cf. LG 17; AG 7; 23.
80 UR 3.
81 UR 22 # 2.
82 Cf. ⇒ Rom 8:29; Council of Trent (1547): DS 1609-1619.
83 Cf. LG 11.
84 Cf. LG 10.
85 St. Augustine, Ep. 98, 5: PL 33, 362; ⇒ Eph 4:30; cf. ⇒ 1:13-14; ⇒ 2 Cor 1:21-22.
86 St. Irenaeus, Dem ap. 3: SCh 62, 32.
87 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 97.​