Salvation

[Josiah]

So I have been bothered by this FREE GIFT of Salvation that is so central to your thesis...

On the one hand, it IS a Gift of God...
AND...
It cannot be earned by man...
AND
Indeed it cannot be contributed to in any way by man
BECAUSE
The Gift is God Himself...
AND
Man cannot give himself God...

So I totally get that...

But the problem I am having is the FREE part...
BECAUSE...
There is a COST to Discipleship...

Yup. But you just jumped to an entirely different topic.

Yes, physical life is a free gift... but does a living person (one WITH the GIFT of life ) have costs? Perhaps has to do things? Perhaps pay taxes? Of course, but how does that negate that the LIFE was a free gift?


And, of course, even justification has a cost.... the highest cost ever.... the Blood of the Lamb. But it's HIS blood that justifies us, not our blood that justifies Him. We have a SAVIOR - He paid the price for our justification. Now, if you want to turn to a different topic, another subject.... say the LIVING of the life GIVEN to us, yup - there is MUCH cost to the disciple, perhaps even our own death (a point the East seems even more sensitive to than the West).... but dead pagans don't die for the Faith, living CHRISTIANS do.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Salvation is not so easy to define. Some think of it as a kind of transaction where the sinner exercises faith in Jesus Christ and God forgives their sins and saves them. A done deal, all finished at the cross. Some think of salvation is a quest of sorts where the sinner repents and believes the gospel and God shows the way and gives food for the journey and rest and everything needed to complete the journey including medical/spiritual aid and emergency aid too with the final goal being salvation on the last day when Jesus says to the redeemed "well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into my Father's rest". There are variants on both of these views too and a few views that are outside the bounds set in the two mentioned above.

Is it enough to believe and is believing more than saying "yes that is right, I think that is true" and maybe acting on the belief or is there more to belief than that and does it mean living a life marked by holiness and prayer as well as generosity to others, love for others, and especially love for the 'brethren'; is a person saved by what they do as well as what they believe or is the doing greater than the believing or vice versa?

This is not intended as a second chapter of the Justification thread.

Jesus said: John 15:1 I am the true vine and my Father is the vine grower. 2 If any of my branches doesn’t bear fruit, he breaks it off; and he prunes every branch that does bear fruit, that it may bear even more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word I have spoken to you. 4 Live in me as I live in you. The branch cannot bear fruit by itself, but has to remain part of the vine; so neither can you, if you don’t remain in me. 5 I am the vine and you are the branches. As long as you remain in me and I in you, you bear much fruit; but apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Whoever does not remain in me is thrown away, as they do with branches, and they wither. Then they are gathered and thrown into the fi re and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask whatever you want, and it will be given to you. 8 My Father is glorified when you bear much fruit: it is then that you become my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Remain in my love! 10 You will remain in my love if you keep my commandments, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. 11 I have told you all this, that my own joy may be in you, and your joy may be complete. 12 This is my commandment: Love one another as I have loved you! 13 There is no greater love than this, to give one’s life for one’s friends; 14 and you are my friends, if you do what I command you. 15 I shall not call you servants any more, because servants do not know what their master is about. Instead, I have called you friends, since I have made known to you everything I learned from my Father. 16 You did not choose me; it was I who chose you and sent you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last. And everything you ask the Father in my name, he will give you. 17 This is my command, that you love one another.

Learn about salvation from the master.

 

[Arsenios]

Yup. But you just jumped to an entirely different topic.

Yes, physical life is a free gift... but does a living person (one WITH the GIFT of life ) have costs? Perhaps has to do things? Perhaps pay taxes? Of course, but how does that negate that the LIFE was a free gift?


And, of course, even justification has a cost.... the highest cost ever.... the Blood of the Lamb. But it's HIS blood that justifies us, not our blood that justifies Him. We have a SAVIOR - He paid the price for our justification. Now, if you want to turn to a different topic, another subject.... say the LIVING of the life GIVEN to us, yup - there is MUCH cost to the disciple, perhaps even our own death (a point the East seems even more sensitive to than the West).... but dead pagans don't die for the Faith, living CHRISTIANS do.

You are right -

The cost of being born was born by our mothers...

We did nothing...

Christ's Passion on the Cross did not EARN our Salvation...

It ESTABLISHED it according to the Will of God...

In it He picked up, by His Death, dead Adam...

He took up where Adam had fallen into death...

He siezed Adam's death by His Death...

And He brought us in Adam to Life...

To Life in Him Who trampled down Death...

Overcoming Adam's death by His Own voluntary Death...

The Cross is HOW Christ became the New Adam...

He did NOT EARN our Salvation by PAYMENT...

To WHOM did He PAY this EARNING by his WORK on the Cross?

Christ is God, is He not?

Whom is He going to PAY with His Love for man?

Adam failed, and Christ succeeded...

Adam was not discarded...

He was RAISED from the dead...

And IF we want Life in Christ...

We must be Baptized INTO Christ...

INTO His Death on the Cross...

And INTO His Resurrection...

And that means a life of suffering in the world...

Overcoming the world and its powers and principalities...

THAT is the COST of Discipleship...

That is the PRICE Christ established...

Yes, even and especially our own death...

The Death to the world...

The Death that enters Christ...

Overcoming the world...

Without suffering there is no preaching the Cross...

Repentance embraces suffering unto death...

A point lost to the worldly...

Foolishness to the Helenic Epicures and their kindred...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus said: John 15:1ff...

Learn about salvation from the master.

Always good counsel...

Learn from those who KNOW...

And not from those who THINK they know...

The ASCENT from thoughts to knowledge...

Is the DESCENT of the nous into the heart...

Mother Theresa encountered an ex-Roman Catholic left-hand path adept in Calcutta - He liked her, and offered to take her on as his chela (disciple) in his affection... He was adept in travel in spirit, and offered to take her places without leaving Calcutta - To New York, to Moscow, to the Vatican - Even to the moon...

She gazed steadily into his eyes and said: "The longest journey you will ever take, she said, beginning the Sign of the Cross, is the one that starts in your head and ends in your heart..." as she finished it...

He never forgot that encounter, and much later returned to the Christian Faith, first as an Evangellical, and then, tiring of the lecture circuit, as an Orthodox Christian... He received an apology from the Vatican for the extended abuse he had received as a teen for many years from his Priest... [Kenneth Klaus: Born to Hate, Reborn to Love] He is a lovely soul...

And ya just gotta LOVE Mother Theresa...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Salvation by God through the Works of the Faith Christ discipled to His Apostles...

Which presents apparent apoplectic cognitive dissonance in these here parts methinks!

The Judiazers wanted your foreskin...

We don't...

You will probably have to trust me on this one!

Arsenios

Dress up a pig and it's still a pig. Your teaching is works salvation...just like the Judaisers.

 

[MennoSota]

And this idea you have that Christ EARNED our Salvation by His WORK on the Cross just rings false to me...

And thus you are a Judaiser. You are merely dressed up in other clothes.
Hebrews 10:12-17 disagrees with you.

12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

 

[Lamb]

Christ's Passion on the Cross did not EARN our Salvation...

Romans 5:6-9 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Yes, Christ did earn our salvation. You cannot earn it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Romans 5:6-9 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Yes, Christ did earn our salvation. You cannot earn it.

Romans 5:6-9 does not say that the Lord earned salvation for his people.

Romans 5:6-11 6 Yet why did Christ, while we were still infirm, at the proper time, suffer death for the impious? 7 Now someone might barely be willing to die for the sake of justice, for example, perhaps someone might dare to die for the sake of a good man. 8 But God demonstrates his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, at the proper time, 9 Christ died for us. Therefore, having been justified now by his blood, all the more so shall we be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, while we were still enemies, all the more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we also glory in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation​

Jesus Christ died for Christians because of God's love; there's no implication of earning anything in this most wonderful revelation from God. Christ died because God loves his people.

 

[Lamb]

Romans 5:6-9 does not say that the Lord earned salvation for his people.

Romans 5:6-11 6 Yet why did Christ, while we were still infirm, at the proper time, suffer death for the impious? 7 Now someone might barely be willing to die for the sake of justice, for example, perhaps someone might dare to die for the sake of a good man. 8 But God demonstrates his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, at the proper time, 9 Christ died for us. Therefore, having been justified now by his blood, all the more so shall we be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, while we were still enemies, all the more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we also glory in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation​

Jesus Christ died for Christians because of God's love; there's no implication of earning anything in this most wonderful revelation from God. Christ died because God loves his people.

Except that it does.

Also, there are Catholic articles that state Jesus won our salvation by His death on the cross...:

We cannot earn our salvation. Jesus won our salvation by his death on the cross. We obtain this salvation by faith, which is a free gift of God.
Catholic News Agency :smirk:

 

[MoreCoffee]

Romans 5:6-9 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Yes, Christ did earn our salvation. You cannot earn it.

Romans 5:6-9 does not say that the Lord earned salvation for his people.

Romans 5:6-11 6 Yet why did Christ, while we were still infirm, at the proper time, suffer death for the impious? 7 Now someone might barely be willing to die for the sake of justice, for example, perhaps someone might dare to die for the sake of a good man. 8 But God demonstrates his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, at the proper time, 9 Christ died for us. Therefore, having been justified now by his blood, all the more so shall we be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, while we were still enemies, all the more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we also glory in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation​

Jesus Christ died for Christians because of God's love; there's no implication of earning anything in this most wonderful revelation from God. Christ died because God loves his people.

Except that it does.

Also, there are Catholic articles that state Jesus won our salvation by His death on the cross...:

We cannot earn our salvation. Jesus won our salvation by his death on the cross. We obtain this salvation by faith, which is a free gift of God.
Catholic News Agency :smirk:

Well no, the passage does not say that Jesus "earned our salvation" nor does the Catholic News article.

Paul makes it very clear that "a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ" (2:16). We cannot earn our salvation. Jesus won our salvation by his death on the cross. We obtain this salvation by faith, which is a free gift of God.​

 

[Josiah]

You are right -

The cost of being born was born by our mothers...

We did nothing...

Christ's Passion on the Cross did not EARN our Salvation...

It ESTABLISHED it according to the Will of God...

In it He picked up, by His Death, dead Adam...

He took up where Adam had fallen into death...

He siezed Adam's death by His Death...

And He brought us in Adam to Life...

To Life in Him Who trampled down Death...

Overcoming Adam's death by His Own voluntary Death...

The Cross is HOW Christ became the New Adam...

He did NOT EARN our Salvation by PAYMENT...

To WHOM did He PAY this EARNING by his WORK on the Cross?

Christ is God, is He not?

Whom is He going to PAY with His Love for man?

Adam failed, and Christ succeeded...

Adam was not discarded...

He was RAISED from the dead...

And IF we want Life in Christ...

We must be Baptized INTO Christ...

INTO His Death on the Cross...

And INTO His Resurrection...

And that means a life of suffering in the world...

Overcoming the world and its powers and principalities...

THAT is the COST of Discipleship...

That is the PRICE Christ established...

Yes, even and especially our own death...

The Death to the world...

The Death that enters Christ...

Overcoming the world...

Without suffering there is no preaching the Cross...

Repentance embraces suffering unto death...

A point lost to the worldly...

Foolishness to the Helenic Epicures and their kindred...

Arsenios

A fairly PROTESTANT reply until you forgot all you said and made it all about self saving self. Friend, DISCIPLESHIP is something a CHRISTIAN does.... it's not how one becomes a Christian. LIVING the life given to us is not how self gives self life.

 

[Lamb]

Well no, the passage does not say that Jesus "earned our salvation" nor does the Catholic News article.

Paul makes it very clear that "a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ" (2:16). We cannot earn our salvation. Jesus won our salvation by his death on the cross. We obtain this salvation by faith, which is a free gift of God.​

OH I see what you're doing. You're playing the semantics game. No thanks.

 

[MoreCoffee]

OH I see what you're doing. You're playing the semantics game. No thanks.

It is not mere semantics it is searching for the truth and avoiding facsimile reproductions. Jesus did not earn salvation for God's people. That is not what the passage teaches. Christians are saved because God loves Christians and sent Jesus to save them in the work of the incarnation and crucifixion followed by the resurrection and glorification. The cross is the focus of salvation's work. The passage you partially quoted teaches that it is God's love that is the causative factor

Romans 5:6-11 6 Yet why did Christ, while we were still infirm, at the proper time, suffer death for the impious? 7 Now someone might barely be willing to die for the sake of justice, for example, perhaps someone might dare to die for the sake of a good man. 8 But God demonstrates his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, at the proper time, 9 Christ died for us. Therefore, having been justified now by his blood, all the more so shall we be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, while we were still enemies, all the more so, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we also glory in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.​

 

[Arsenios]

Dress up a pig and it's still a pig. Your teaching is works salvation...just like the Judaisers.

I agree -

A dressed up pig is still a pig...

Works do not earn Salvation...

I am thankful that God is faithful...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

And thus you are a Judaiser. You are merely dressed up in other clothes.
Hebrews 10:12-17 disagrees with you.

You seem to think that God had to EARN your Salvation??

From WHOM did God EARN your Salvation...

WHO paid God's WAGES that save YOU??

It is a silly notion...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Romans 5:6-9 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Yes, Christ did earn our salvation. You cannot earn it.

Who paid God the wages He "earned" on the Cross??

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

A fairly PROTESTANT reply until you forgot all you said and made it all about self saving self. Friend, DISCIPLESHIP is something a CHRISTIAN does.... it's not how one becomes a Christian. LIVING the life given to us is not how self gives self life.

Are you ever going to address Romans 8:29-30 ?

The silence is deafening...

I can't hear your other words...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

OH I see what you're doing. You're playing the semantics game. No thanks.

To DIE for our Salvation is not to EARN our Salvation...

It IS to make Sacrifice of self, which we are to do too...

Following Him...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You seem to think that God had to EARN your Salvation??

From WHOM did God EARN your Salvation...

WHO paid God's WAGES that save YOU??

It is a silly notion...

Arsenios

God took my sin upon himself so that justice might be satisfied.

 

[MennoSota]

I agree -

A dressed up pig is still a pig...

Works do not earn Salvation...

I am thankful that God is faithful...

Arsenios

Yet, you state:
"Hence Salvation is progressive on earth..."
Question: At any time in this progression could you thwart God's salvation?