Salvation

[MoreCoffee]

Salvation is not so easy to define. Some think of it as a kind of transaction where the sinner exercises faith in Jesus Christ and God forgives their sins and saves them. A done deal, all finished at the cross. Some think of salvation is a quest of sorts where the sinner repents and believes the gospel and God shows the way and gives food for the journey and rest and everything needed to complete the journey including medical/spiritual aid and emergency aid too with the final goal being salvation on the last day when Jesus says to the redeemed "well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into my Father's rest". There are variants on both of these views too and a few views that are outside the bounds set in the two mentioned above.

Is it enough to believe and is believing more than saying "yes that is right, I think that is true" and maybe acting on the belief or is there more to belief than that and does it mean living a life marked by holiness and prayer as well as generosity to others, love for others, and especially love for the 'brethren'; is a person saved by what they do as well as what they believe or is the doing greater than the believing or vice versa?

This is not intended as a second chapter of the Justification thread.

 

[Lamb]

Matthew 19:25-26 English Standard Version (ESV)
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Hebrews 7:25 English Standard Version (ESV)
Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost[a] those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.


Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1 John 5:10-13 ESV
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Titus 3:5 ESV
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Salvation for us is completely by the triune God's hand, not of us.

 

[NewCreation435]

You ask if it is enough to believe. No, it is not. Salvation is more than intellectual assent. The demons believe and shudder.

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?" James 2;18-20

This is in my opinion one of the problems with the church today. That many people who claim to be believers will intellectually agree that Jesus is the Son of God, but at the end of the day will refuse to submit to his leadership and lordship. Jesus told those who were listening to him to repent and believe. Repent means a turning away from. Repentance is often missing in the church today. We would do well to have a season of repentance in our churches today. Repentance of self sufficiency and self-reliance. Acting as though we were close to heaven and God gave us a hand up instead of what it really is which is a rebirth.

 

[Lamb]

You ask if it is enough to believe. No, it is not. Salvation is more than intellectual assent. The demons believe and shudder.

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?" James 2;18-20

This is in my opinion one of the problems with the church today. That many people who claim to be believers will intellectually agree that Jesus is the Son of God, but at the end of the day will refuse to submit to his leadership and lordship. Jesus told those who were listening to him to repent and believe. Repent means a turning away from. Repentance is often missing in the church today. We would do well to have a season of repentance in our churches today. Repentance of self sufficiency and self-reliance. Acting as though we were close to heaven and God gave us a hand up instead of what it really is which is a rebirth.

Believing because of faith is different than the believing that the demons did because there was no saving faith given for the demons...only to humans through Christ. So is believing enough? Absolutely. Is repentance something God does within us? Absolutely, because it includes faith to turn us to Him.

 

[Andrew]

Believing because of faith is different than the believing that the demons did because there was no saving faith given for the demons...only to humans through Christ. So is believing enough? Absolutely. Is repentance something God does within us? Absolutely, because it includes faith to turn us to Him.

Also many people believe in a God or creator in a broad sense and reject Christ

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[Lamb]

Also many people believe in a God or creator in a broad sense and reject Christ

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Believing that a God exists does not equate to faith. We can know from creation that there is a God but the Gospel of a Savior who forgives sins through death on the cross is foolishness apart from faith.

 

[MennoSota]

...he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. ~ Ephesians 1:4

Salvation is not complicated at all.
People try to complicate it because they refuse to accept God's Sovereign authority in choosing His children.

 

[Josiah]

Salvation is not so easy to define. Some think of it as a kind of transaction where the sinner exercises faith in Jesus Christ and God forgives their sins and saves them. A done deal, all finished at the cross. Some think of salvation is a quest of sorts where the sinner repents and believes the gospel and God shows the way and gives food for the journey and rest and everything needed to complete the journey including medical/spiritual aid and emergency aid too with the final goal being salvation on the last day when Jesus says to the redeemed "well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into my Father's rest". There are variants on both of these views too and a few views that are outside the bounds set in the two mentioned above.

Terms like "salvation" "conversion" "justification" "sanctification" "glorification" etc. CAN be used variously - in the Bible, in Tradition and in theological treatises. That's why it is good to note HOW you mean it.


Protestants tend to be careful on this point, but when speaking with non-Protestants, there is an opportunity for misunderstanding (thus Protestants tend to be ESPECIALLY careful when speaking to them). Protestants are APT to use the words "salvation" and "justification" and (less often) "conversion" to refer to the change in status, the divine granting of Life and Faith, the application of the works of Christ, the coming into the covenant of mercy. They are APT to use terms like "sanctification" and "discipleship" and "Christian life" to refer to ALL that follows and results from that, what the LIVING of this Gift of Life is to be. For Protestants, it is important that we affirm what we call "The Chief Article of Faith" or "Chief Doctrine" - that Jesus is the Savior. JESUS - no other, including the one we see in the mirror. IS (actually, fully, effectively) THE (exclusively, solely and all-sufficiently) SAVIOR (not helper, not offerer, not possibility-maker, not Gate Opener). AND to protect and affirm the need for our life to reflect Christ's life - not so that we may gain life but because we have this life, loving because we are FIRST loved, giving from what we FIRST were given. Protestants think these things are very important.


In much of popular Catholicism, it's all VERY messy, all this is mixed up and blended and entangled. It's GOOD and RIGHT that Catholics see these things as inseparable but wrong that they see these things as identical. It's GOOD and RIGHT to see them both as associated with each other, wrong that they hold that the our living enabling our coming to life rather than our life enabling our living. To use an example: It's TRUE that the living are to breathe (and do so), it's wrong to insist that it is our breathing that causes our conception. Association does not mandate causation. Popular Catholicism is RIGHT to hold these together but wrong to confuse and blend and mix them up - applying TRUTHS about one to the other (where they may be wrong).



There's nothing new here. In Luther's time, all this was pretty much undefined (officially) in Catholicism. But the Scriptures, the Fathers, the Creeds and the Councils were clear. Luther heard the preaching of those selling Indulgences and too often (largely ignorant) priests in parishes teaching a horrible misunderstanding, a synergistic/Pelagian MESS that was creating terror in the hearts of Catholics which the RCC was abusing (to get money out of them). Luther was EXTREMELY careful, "uber" careful- to be sure everyone understood he was speaking to justification - the GIVING, not Sanctification - the LIVING. He (and Lutheran "Fathers" after him) were SO careful that it is impossible for any to misunderstand. As a Doctor of the Church, he felt he was simply pointing out an error which the Pope would be grateful for, simply calling the Catholic Church to teach Catholicism and the Gospel, certain he was simply REFORMING an obvious error. Of course, we all know what happened as a result. At the Council of Trent, a bit after Luther's death, the RCC would finally pin this all down - but only to "justify" it's earlier condemnation of the Lutheran teaching, to justify how it called all this "heresy" and "anathema."

Is it enough to believe and is believing more than saying "yes that is right, I think that is true" and maybe acting on the belief or is there more to belief than that and does it mean living a life marked by holiness and prayer as well as generosity to others, love for others, and especially love for the 'brethren'; is a person saved by what they do as well as what they believe or is the doing greater than the believing or vice versa?

Here is your profound error, my friend.....

"Enough for WHAT"?" Protestants tend to stress that Jesus is "enough" for the salvation He earned and gives. His Incarnation - Cross - Empty Tomb is "enough" . To argue that Jesus' work is NOT enough is to do the very thing Protestants so fundamentally, so passionately reject - that Jesus is NOT the Savior, that He goofed, and now we gotta help Him and get Him out of trouble by fixing what He goofed up, supplying what He forgot. Yes, Jesus is "enough" as SAVIOR. Yes, "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide" as the gift of God IS ENOUGH for justification (narrow). Just as one can say that my conception around March 23, 1987 - that GIFT of GOD - is enough for my having life. Yes, Protestants look to the Incarnation, the Cross, the Empty Tomb and say it IS enough, Jesus didn't lie when He said "it is FINISHED." It is NOT a lie that Jesus IS the Savior, the Holy Spirit IS the GIVER of Life. THIS, we argue, is done, is finished, in this Jesus is enough. But "this" is not "all."


Is this the END of everything as some Catholics like to accuse Protestants of saying? NO! . Absolutely not. And NO Protestant on the Planet in all history known to me has said that. Protestants tend to stress (more so than Catholicism, in my experience) that God calls CHRISTIANS (ones WITH life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification) to great things - including to love all as much as God does, to be as morally perfect as God is, to serve others as much as God does, to forgive others as God FIRST forgave us, to GIVE to others as God FIRST gave to us, to minister and serve as God FIRST ministered and served us. BECAUSE we have been given life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification..... BECAUSE we first have received.... we are to LIVE, as Christ did. Example: Generally, being born in the USA is "enough" for that person to be an American citizen. But it's not the END of anything.... that American will need to pay taxes, serve on juries, maybe even die for the USA. But it's wrong to say that paying taxes is what makes one an American citizen. Yes, normally, those alive breathe (it might even be called a mandate!) but is self breathing the cause of the conception of self? Nope.



- Josiah




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[MoreCoffee]

Brother Josiah, there is no such ting as "the protestant view". Seventh Day Adventists are Protestants and they tell me, in sermons that I heard with my own ears while visiting a SDA church, that "what saves is your Christian character and without it you cannot be saved" the explanation that preceded those words and the summary that followed pointed to obedience shown by keeping the ten commandments and especially, in this last days, keeping the Sabbath is what Christian character is all about. Maybe Lutherans, at least the "confessional ones" adhere to the ideas you've expressed. It doesn't appear to be the teaching of SDAs nor of Campbell's followers, nor of Messianic Jews (who appear to be protestant), nor of many Pentecostal groups that place emphasis on the feasts of Judaism. But maybe at least some Lutherans adhere, and probably some conservative Presbyterians, and some conservative Baptists.

 

[Josiah]

there is no such ting as "the protestant view".

Friend, I consider your reply pure evasion.




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[NewCreation435]

Believing because of faith is different than the believing that the demons did because there was no saving faith given for the demons...only to humans through Christ. So is believing enough? Absolutely. Is repentance something God does within us? Absolutely, because it includes faith to turn us to Him.

From what I understand the word believe in the Bible is to put your whole faith and trust in. It isn't the same as an intellectual belief.

 

[Josiah]

Seems we're way off topic but.... to add my half cent....

Biblically, as I understand it, "pistos" CAN mean to hold to something true and correct but it also can mean to trust, to actively rely upon. IMO, context determines the difference.

The Devil probably knows a LOT more God than all of us here at CH combined. But does He trust/rely upon Christ as His Savior? IMO, one could have an IQ of 200, have 5 Ph.D.'s, 3 Seminary degrees, and have memorized every word of the Bible from Genesis - Revelation, and not have active trust/reliance in Christ. I know a LOT of people who have no clue how planes fly (or THINK they do but they don't, lol). But they stuff themselves into planes every day - trusting in flight, relying on THIS plane and THIS crew and THIS course. KNOWING and RELYING just aren't the same thing.... and one can exist at the exclusion of the other.

In Lutheran theology at least, we do make a distinction between cognative affirmation and active reliance. And I think this is appropriate. Personally, I see this in Scripture, too. Lutherans hold that Justification is via Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, and that last aspect, "fide" is the reliance aspect. We hold that a baby can have the gift of trusting (even though there may be very little to no understanding of that) whereas the dude with 3 Seminary degrees that's memorized the entire Bible may not be trusting/relying at all. Apples and oranges. Even though, I agree, the koine Greek word CAN have both meanings, depending on the context.


Sorry for the 'off point'



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

From what I understand the word believe in the Bible is to put your whole faith and trust in. It isn't the same as an intellectual belief.

I wonder how that fits in with demons believing? James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you think that those demons "put their whole faith and trust in" God being one?

 

[psalms 91]

I wonder how that fits in with demons believing? James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you think that those demons "put their whole faith and trust in" God being one?

To the extent it is fact yes, as a saviour no. Since they exist in the spiritual it is seen and dioes not require faith per se.

 

[Josiah]

I wonder how that fits in with demons believing? James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you think that those demons "put their whole faith and trust in" God being one?

See post 12

 

[Albion]

Is it enough to believe and is believing more than saying "yes that is right, I think that is true" and maybe acting on the belief or is there more to belief than that and does it mean living a life marked by holiness and prayer as well as generosity to others, love for others, and especially love for the 'brethren'; is a person saved by what they do as well as what they believe or is the doing greater than the believing or vice versa?

Using the terminology, etc. of your post, believing is greater than doing. But really, the question is flawed because it presumes that no doing on your behalf or my behalf has been done.

The truth is that Christ did the doing. This is at the heart of the Gospel. If we had been able to do sufficiently, it would not have been necessary for us to have a Savior. Obviously, we were sent a Savior in order to do what we could not do by ourselves.

Therefore, insisting that we are to equal or supplement his accomplishment misses one of the most basic truths of the Gospel.

 

[MoreCoffee]

When the faithful think of salvation it is well to remember that Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; (Romans 13:11) and if salvation is nearer now than when you first believed then the faithful ought to remember that salvation is not an event in the past because were that so then salvation would recede into the past becoming further and further from the faithful rather than drawing nearer as an event that is yet future must. To boast that "I am saved, Jesus did it all 2,000 years ago" is to assert that salvation is receding from you now at a distance in time of 2,000 years and ever increasing in distance rather than being an approaching reward and blessing that God has prepared for the faithful to receive on the last day.

 

[Josiah]

When the faithful think of salvation it is well to remember that Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; (Romans 13:11) and if salvation is nearer now than when you first believed then the faithful ought to remember that salvation is not an event in the past because were that so then salvation would recede into the past becoming further and further from the faithful rather than drawing nearer as an event that is yet future must. To boast that "I am saved, Jesus did it all 2,000 years ago" is to assert that salvation is receding from you now at a distance in time of 2,000 years and ever increasing in distance rather than being an approaching reward and blessing that God has prepared for the faithful to receive on the last day.

AGAIN, terms like "conversion" "salvation" "justification" "sanctification" etc. CAN have different senses and/or meanings, depending on the context. "Salvation" can be used broadly, to refer to all of soteriology. BUT, never (IMO) can these words in Scripture have a meaning that denounces Christianity and the Christian Gospel, NEVER have the meaning that Jesus was all a bad and irrelevant joke because self saves self (whether with divine HELP - the view of modern Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism - or without). The central point of Christianity is that all NEED salvation and life, and that Jesus IS THE Savior (not just a helper, not just a possibility-maker) and that the Holy Spirit is the GIVER of spiritual life (not just Offerer of such). When Scripture is spun... when theology is twisted.... so that Christianity is wrong, Jesus is not THE (singular, exclusive, all-sufficient SAVIOR) and the Holy Spirit is not THE (sole, singular, all-sufficient) GIVER of spiritual life, then it's wrong. Of course, that was the issue of the Reformation.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; (Romans 13:11)

There's no need to obfuscate the meaning of "salvation". Salvation is what it is and it is not yet complete. It is something we wait for and not something we remember from a distant past of which we have no direct memory. It is what we hope for. "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." (Romans 8.24-25)

 

[hedrick]

I don't see how to avoid making this a replay of justification, since it's essentially the same topic.

I agree with the OP. The term is used in different ways. Both within Scripture and even more in theology.

Jesus seems to use it in 2 ways
* being saved in the end
* changing from someone outside the Kingdom to inside; repentance

Are we actually justified by faith? Yes, I think so. But you need to understand what faith is. According to the huge article in TDNT it is really the whole attitude of humans in response to God. It thus combines faith, faithfulness, trust, and even obedience. However in the NT it tends to mean primarily trust. I think that's the sense in which Jesus uses it. But Jesus doesn't say we are justified by faith. Paul does.

For Paul there's a specific context. He is, as TDNT says, using it as one of two principles of salvation (the other being Law). For him the question is whether we rely on God for salvation or on our own obedience to the Law. Clearly our salvation comes from God, not anything we do. I don't think anyone disputes that. But he also teaches that we'll be judged by our actions -- or perhaps better, our lives -- although I think we have to be very careful about that to avoid a checklist mentality or legalism. So just because salvation is from God, independent of our own worthiness, doesn't remove the fact that we are held responsible for how we respond.

Thus the common position that Paul taught justification by faith and judgement in accordance with works. I think the same is true of Jesus.

But faith in this context is not "I think that's true."