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Josiah

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Faith without works is dead... Remember??

Correct. It's not faith in my works.

Again, MANY things are associated with the divine gift of reliance on the justifying works of Jesus who IS THE SAVIOR. Your mistake is to assume that all things associated ergo have the identical purpose. I own a Subaru Forester. It has an engine and a radio. There is no such thing as a 2018 Subaru Forester that does not have an engine and a radio, a radio and an engine - in this vehicle, they go together, they are associated. But it is illogical (and silly) to assume that the function of both is to propel the vehicle and relate pretty music. Reliance on Christ's saving work AND responding with our work are BOTH important (as all Christians agree) - indeed inseparable - indeed we are justified not simply for heaven but for OUR good works, indeed we are loved also so that we will love - friend, no Christian on the planet Earth disputes that, no Christian in human history has disputed that - the issue is whether OUR works justifies us (making Christ irrelevant). THAT is the issue that tore apart Western Christianity 500 years ago (and it remains split on that issue). Luther rejected the Pelagian, synergistic teachings of the Indulgence Sellers as they horribly violated the Council of Orange and Scripture - and he was excommunicated for it and the RC denomination split itself in order to preserve the teachings of those Indulgence Sellers.

I see you seem to like to do what some modern Catholics do..... evade and dodge the issue before us by running to the issue we all agree up (and always have). Both Lutherans and Catholics went to GREAT lengths to note that we AGREE on what comes AFTER we have faith - life - the Holy Spirit, what we are to do WITH those (what in theology is often called Sanctification in the narrow sense, the CHRISTIAN life), you saying "the Christian should....." is nice, but no one disagrees, no one ever has. The issue is the attaining of that faith, life, Holy Spirit (what in theology is often called Justification in the narrow sense).

Now, at times, you seem to want to say you agree with the Protestant position (which I find curious) - yet every time any Protestant presents the Protestant position, you debate it, rebuke it, etc. even while often saying exactly the same thing Protestants do but stressing you radically and fundamentally disagree with it while stressing that you agree with it. And then when our resident Catholic also rebukes the Protestant position (as he must to be Catholic) you appear to agree with him while indicating you agree with the Protestant positiion while you rebuke the Protestant position. I keep calling you back: Who is the Savior (in this sense of narrow Justification - the GIVING of mercy, spiritual life/birth, the Holy Spirit)? If you answer JESUS then welcome to Protestantism. Now OF COURSE, obviously, undeniably, unquestionably, that's the STARTING POINT of a lifelong process of growing, loving, serving.... of becoming more Christ-like, more holy, more righteous but then NO ONE ON THE PLANET EARTH has ever disputed that, that's never been the issue, as the Catholic Church itself so stressed. As Lutherans so stressed. As Calvin so stressed.


Without contending Faith has no life...


No Christian in all of human history has ever remotely contented such an absurd thing. The dispute is over the attaining of life not the living of it.
 

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Arsenios

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You do preach salvation by works, not by grace.

Salvation is by God's Grace through the works of Faith...

Salvation by Grace through Faith...

That's Book...

Faith is a work...

Faith without works is dead...

Grace is God Himself...

Arsenios
 

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When Paul and Silas addressed the Philippian jailer

Acts 16:31
And they said,
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and thou shalt be saved,
and thy house.


did they tell him that he and his household would be saved eventually, over a progressive timeline, which they could destroy at any moment by failing to meet all the prescribed requirements of the progression?

It simply records that their Salvation will occur in the future...

Is the word "will" in the future tense?

σωθηση [pronounced so-thee-see - so-thi-si] is a second person singular future indicative...

While not specifically ongoing or suddenly given - It is generally understood as ongoing, because it is seen as a present ongoing tense projected into the future by the addition of the letter (s) before the ending of the verb... There is no future aorist, which would be the "suddenly given action", so futures are normally understood as ongoing...

And more than this, Salvation does have this feature - It is already possessed, and still yet to be possessed... We are both already saved, and not yet saved... We are saved in part, yet not in full... Today we see God darkly as in a mirror, and then we shall know Him fully... Scripture is filled with this language...

MC and Arsenios, your doctrine is demonstratably false.

Then you need to demonstrate the falsity of the doctrine...

So far, you have failed to do so...


Arsenios
 

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Correct. It's not faith in my works.

Faith without works is dead...

This means that IF you believe, you need to DO the works in which you believe...

You DO works of Faith BECAUSE you have Faith...

IF you do NOT DO those works, you will KILL the Faith you CLAIM and may believe...

THUS you MUST have Faith in the works OF Faith and in your obedient DOING of them...

You are simply mistaken...

EVERYTHING depends on what YOU do...
AND...
NOTHING you DO will unite you to God...

ONLY God CAN unite YOU to Himself...
That MARRIAGE can ONLY be given BY God...

Reliance on Christ's saving work AND responding with our work are BOTH ... indeed inseparable
the issue is whether OUR works justifies us (making Christ irrelevant).

False... We rely on our obedience to Christ's commandments...

ONLY in this do we rely on Christ Who promised us Salvation...

Man repents in obedience to Christ...
Christ Saves repentant man...

The issue is HOW Christ set up Salvation for fallen mankind...
And Paul answers this in the passage you will not address...
First is God's Foreknowledge of each of us...
Second is God's Calling of those He Foreknew...
Third is God's Justification of those He has Called...
Fourth is God's Glorification of those He has Justified...

And you keep insisting there is some non-existent "NARROW JUSTIFICATION" which is clearly a human and not a Biblical teaching... And you keep refusing to address Paul's timeline of Salvation... Eternal Life in this fallen life is to KNOW the only True God and His Son... This IS Glorification BY God... Yet you seem fixated on the Latin Church's betrayal of Luther's insistence that God is the Savior, and not man... I do not know much of this history, nor do I particularly care... It is not my job to effect correction of either the (apostatic) Latin church or the (failed) Protestant Reformation... The EOC is the Grandmother Church, and you are the Grand-child we are trying to help as we pray for the correction of your Mother, the Latin Church...

And I still have the opinion that IF it were up to MC and myself, we could easily resolve all the issues between us... The Latin Church, you see, IS an Apostolic Church, whatever Her status in our eyes... The Reformation, otoh, is a Protestation of the Latin Church and an attack on it's apostatic and authoritarian ecclesiastical rule using the Bible as its own authoritarian basis of and weapon for that attack... Thus invalidating in the Reformation the High Ekklesiology of the Church as Christ's Holy Body on earth... And reducing it to private persons believing in God with the Church as the Triumphant - eg Spiritual - Body...

And I am sure I have much of this wrong... But the broad outlines seem about right...

The issue is the attaining of that faith, life, Holy Spirit (what in theology is often called Justification in the narrow sense).

Indeed it is, and your view states that it is given as a FREE Gift from God out of the blue, and THEN we live the Salvation that God has already given to us, which some say is indelible, and you say we can lose...

The Orthodox hold that we are Called by God, and that some Seed falls on bad soil, and those souls are lost to devouring birds and thorns... And that our response, to cultivate, water and enrich our soil in Repentance, then wins our Justification BY God IN Baptism INTO Jesus Christ... And this you have never addressed... You just go back to your cut and paste complaint against the Latin Church...

The dispute is over the attaining of life not the living of it.

Do we have to contend for the Life Christ-God is Giving to us?

The Orthodox say yes...

So too the Latin Church...

What say you?

Arsenios

ps - As an aside, this is why Paul writes "And not of works, lest any boast..."
BECAUSE the works are entirely exhaustive, and because of the NECESSITY of EXAUSTIVE works, it is easy for the one doing such extensive works to think that it is the works that EARN the WAGES of Salvation... Yet this clearly is false, because the Gift of Salvation is WON, not earned, and God is the SOLE Judge of WHO wins and WHEN... He did not write that to DISMISS works, but to clearly establish that they do not EARN what cannot be earned... Corruption cannot earn incorruption... Death cannot earn Life... Creation cannot earn Uncreation... Man cannot earn God...

Yet man must exhaust himself in the works - He must "run the race set before him" at ALL stages of living a life of Salvation - in order that he WIN that race against demonic powers that hate man and seek his destruction... And "To those overcoming..." God elevates them...

A.
 
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Acts 16:31
And they said,
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and thou shalt be saved,
and thy house.




It simply records that their Salvation will occur in the future...



σωθηση [pronounced so-thee-see - so-thi-si] is a second person singular future indicative...

While not specifically ongoing or suddenly given - It is generally understood as ongoing, because it is seen as a present ongoing tense projected into the future by the addition of the letter (s) before the ending of the verb... There is no future aorist, which would be the "suddenly given action", so futures are normally understood as ongoing...

And more than this, Salvation does have this feature - It is already possessed, and still yet to be possessed... We are both already saved, and not yet saved... We are saved in part, yet not in full... Today we see God darkly as in a mirror, and then we shall know Him fully... Scripture is filled with this language...



Then you need to demonstrate the falsity of the doctrine...

So far, you have failed to do so...


Arsenios
Where is the "if you follow all the rules set up in progression" statement in Acts 16:31? I don't see all the additional rules that you have demanded in your progressive salvation theory.
"You shall be saved." Nowhere does Paul add, "if you follow the progressive steps I will now provide to you."
Arsenios, you are a perfect example, to all who enter this thread, of a modern day Judaiser. You start with a statement of grace and then demand salvation via the law. Paul calls your message "anathema."
 

Josiah

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Faith without works is dead...

You DO works of Faith BECAUSE you have Faith...


... thank you for repeating yet again the point no one disputes, no one disagrees with.


I'll try one more time, because perhaps you know nothing of Western Christianity and our history: The debate that split us (and still splits us) has nothing... nothing.... absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the life of a CHRISTIAN - one who has faith/spiritual life/Holy Spirit/justification. ALL "SIDES" stressed and have stressed this point as boldly and strongly as they possibily can. The issue is the GAINING of that spiritual life - faith - Holy Spirit - Justification.


And again, you obviously need to learn that while the words we use ("Justification" "Sanctification" "conversion" "salvation") all can have various meanings, all sides (Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed) went to ENORMOUS lengths (and still do) to be SURE all understand EXACTLY what we MEAN when these words are used - you may not but that's not because the Protestants here have not stated it over and over and over and over and over again, with illustrations and examples and everything we can think of, yet you SEEM to STILL have no idea how these words are being used and meant. Again, my friend, the issue is not.... was not.... among ANYONE.... Catholic or Protestant.... what is true FOR THE CHRISTIAN, the one WITH life - faith - the Holy Spirit - Justification, the issue is the attaining of such, THAT is what the RCC so boldly, so totally disagreed with all the Protestants about, so much so that it split Western Christianity over it.


Trying to put the best construction on your (very confusing) posts, it MAY be you are employing the same trick as a few Catholics...... Say TRUE things about the LIVING of life (things everyone fully agrees with) and then change topics, change the subject, switch to THE DEBATE, and make a completely silly and illogical point: Since it applies here, it MUST apply on that other subject. Kind of like saying, "an engine makes a car go, therefore the radio must as well." It is SO illogical as to mystify anyone who reads it. Again, yet again, no one is disagreeing with anyone on what happens or is to happen for one who HAS life - faith - Holy Spirit - justification, the issue is that attaining of that. And just because point "A" is true in one, doesn't make it true in the other. You KNOW that thus if your ploy is as it SEEMS, it is silly and seems but a desperate ploy meant only to confuse the gullible. But I hope this is not the case, especially since Christianity hinges on this point.




.
 
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Arsenios

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Where is the "if you follow all the rules set up in progression" statement in Acts 16:31?

It does not address that issue - The word for "believe" is an aorist active imperative, second person singular, and is not a present imperative, so it means "believe" and not "be you believing"... So I really does not address the issue of the ongoingness, or the stages, of Salvation which Paul addresses with the Call, then the Justification, then the Glorification, of the Believer... Nor does it address the definition of Salvation which John gives as KNOWING the only True God... The aorist impereative simply gives the force of meaning: "Totally embrace this Faith immediately..." with the proviso that IF you do so, you and your house WILL BE Saved (by God)... eg IN THE FUTURE...

Nor does this statement address the matter of Christ's Great Commission to His Apostles to DISCIPLE ALL the nations, teaching the nations TO BE OBSERVING ALL that Christ Commanded the Apostles... Those who did so were called the "People of the Way"... Christ discipled a MANNER OF LIFE... He did not disciple Theology, though He is the Source of Theology... He discipled the Christian WAY of Living IN Him...

But the Acts passage does say: "IF you believe, THEN you will be saved..."
It does NOT say: "IF God gives you faith, THEN you will be saved..."

That last dog don't hunt! :)

Arsenios
 

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... thank you for repeating yet again the point no one disputes, no one disagrees with.


I'll try one more time, because perhaps you know nothing of Western Christianity and our history: The debate that split us (and still splits us) has nothing... nothing.... absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the life of a CHRISTIAN - one who has faith/spiritual life/Holy Spirit/justification. ALL "SIDES" stressed and have stressed this point as boldly and strongly as they possibily can. The issue is the GAINING of that spiritual life - faith - Holy Spirit - Justification.


And again, you obviously need to learn that while the words we use ("Justification" "Sanctification" "conversion" "salvation") all can have various meanings, all sides (Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed) went to ENORMOUS lengths (and still do) to be SURE all understand EXACTLY what we MEAN when these words are used - you may not but that's not because the Protestants here have not stated it over and over and over and over and over again, with illustrations and examples and everything we can think of, yet you SEEM to STILL have no idea how these words are being used and meant. Again, my friend, the issue is not.... was not.... among ANYONE.... Catholic or Protestant.... what is true FOR THE CHRISTIAN, the one WITH life - faith - the Holy Spirit - Justification, the issue is the attaining of such, THAT is what the RCC so boldly, so totally disagreed with all the Protestants about, so much so that it split Western Christianity over it.


Trying to put the best construction on your (very confusing) posts, it MAY be you are employing the same trick as a few Catholics...... Say TRUE things about the LIVING of life (things everyone fully agrees with) and then change topics, change the subject, switch to THE DEBATE, and make a completely silly and illogical point: Since it applies here, it MUST apply on that other subject. Kind of like saying, "an engine makes a car go, therefore the radio must as well." It is SO illogical as to mystify anyone who reads it. Again, yet again, no one is disagreeing with anyone on what happens or is to happen for one who HAS life - faith - Holy Spirit - justification, the issue is that attaining of that. And just because point "A" is true in one, doesn't make it true in the other. You KNOW that thus if your ploy is as it SEEMS, it is silly and seems but a desperate ploy meant only to confuse the gullible. But I hope this is not the case, especially since Christianity hinges on this point.

We are only confusing to you because we are the Original Christians... And we profoundly reject the Latin Scholastic and the Protestant neo-Scholastic western theologies... We are profoundly engaged in repentance as a way of life and the living of a profoundly personal relationship with God in Spirit and in Truth... If you want to know what this means, Lossky wrote "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church."

Salvation is progressive, beginning with the foreknowledge of God, followed by His Calling us to repentance, followed by His Justification of the Called [in Baptism], and then His Glorification of the Justified who have become perfected in the Faith... This is very simple... Following the Call of God, we are to begin purifying our hearts in repentance from sin, after which we are baptized into purity of heart and Hypostatic Union with God, which we then take and run the race unto the refining of our Faith in trials maturing as we go across a lifetime, remaining faithful to the end, after which Paul writes "You shall then be saved..."

For you, this seems confusing... For us, it is simple common sense... Repent and be Baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!

Arsenios
 

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It does not address that issue - The word for "believe" is an aorist active imperative, second person singular, and is not a present imperative, so it means "believe" and not "be you believing"... So I really does not address the issue of the ongoingness, or the stages, of Salvation which Paul addresses with the Call, then the Justification, then the Glorification, of the Believer... Nor does it address the definition of Salvation which John gives as KNOWING the only True God... The aorist impereative simply gives the force of meaning: "Totally embrace this Faith immediately..." with the proviso that IF you do so, you and your house WILL BE Saved (by God)... eg IN THE FUTURE...

Nor does this statement address the matter of Christ's Great Commission to His Apostles to DISCIPLE ALL the nations, teaching the nations TO BE OBSERVING ALL that Christ Commanded the Apostles... Those who did so were called the "People of the Way"... Christ discipled a MANNER OF LIFE... He did not disciple Theology, though He is the Source of Theology... He discipled the Christian WAY of Living IN Him...

But the Acts passage does say: "IF you believe, THEN you will be saved..."
It does NOT say: "IF God gives you faith, THEN you will be saved..."

That last dog don't hunt! :)

Arsenios
So...Paul never tells the Philippian jailer that his salvation is predicated upon a progressive series of actions that must be met in order for salvation to occur?
You are the person asserting that salvation is a progressive series of merited actions on the human beings part in order to activate the next level of attainment. (Sort of like a video game where you reach new levels before you can win.)
 

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For you, this seems confusing... For us, it is simple common sense... Repent and be Baptized, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!

Arsenios
You realize that this was the message under the Mosaic Law preached by John the Baptist. It is not the gospel.
Once again you reveal your Judaiser teaching.
 

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So...Paul never tells the Philippian jailer that his salvation is predicated upon a progressive series of actions that must be met in order for salvation to occur?
You are the person asserting that salvation is a progressive series of merited actions on the human beings part in order to activate the next level of attainment. (Sort of like a video game where you reach new levels before you can win.)

The Philippian Jailer will find that out when he siezes the Faith...
"As deceiving, yet True!"
You don't get it all at once by preaching...
You DO get it all at once from God...
Sometimes...
As a pastoral matter, believing is his first step...
The rest is solidly straight from the Bible...

Arsenios
 

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You realize that this was the message under the Mosaic Law preached by John the Baptist. It is not the gospel.

Christ is speaking through Peter in Acts to non-Jewish converts... [Cornelius and his household]

Do you have a different Bible?

Arsenios
 
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MennoSota

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The Philippian Jailer will find that out when he siezes the Faith...
"As deceiving, yet True!"
You don't get it all at once by preaching...
You DO get it all at once from God...
Sometimes...
As a pastoral matter, believing is his first step...
The rest is solidly straight from the Bible...

Arsenios

Here you make an entirely unsubstantiated claim.
You are dead set in preaching salvation by meeting the law according to Arsenios.
You are a Judaiser, Arsenios. Paul says your teaching is anathema.
 

MennoSota

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Christ is speaking through Peter in Acts to non-Jewish converts... [Cornelius and his household]

Do you have a differeent Bible?

Arsenios
Acts of the Apostles 10:29-44
[29]So I came without objection as soon as I was sent for. Now tell me why you sent for me.”
[30]Cornelius replied, “Four days ago I was praying in my house about this same time, three o’clock in the afternoon. Suddenly, a man in dazzling clothes was standing in front of me.
[31]He told me, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your gifts to the poor have been noticed by God!
[32]Now send messengers to Joppa, and summon a man named Simon Peter. He is staying in the home of Simon, a tanner who lives near the seashore.’
[33]So I sent for you at once, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here, waiting before God to hear the message the Lord has given you.”
[34]Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.
[35]In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right.
[36]This is the message of Good News for the people of Israel—that there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
[37]You know what happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee, after John began preaching his message of baptism.
[38]And you know that God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. Then Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
[39]“And we apostles are witnesses of all he did throughout Judea and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a cross,
[40]but God raised him to life on the third day. Then God allowed him to appear,
[41]not to the general public, but to us whom God had chosen in advance to be his witnesses. We were those who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
[42]And he ordered us to preach everywhere and to testify that Jesus is the one appointed by God to be the judge of all—the living and the dead.
[43]He is the one all the prophets testified about, saying that everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name.”
[44]Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message.
 

Josiah

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Salvation is by God's Grace through the works of Faith...


No.


Salvation is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. It is WHOLLY because of God's mercy, via the works of JESUS, which is apprehended via the gift of faith (which, of course, is accompanied by our works). Our works do not justify us, we are not the Savior of self, Jesus is NOT irrelevant as THE (one and only, all-sufficient, exclusive) SAVIOR.




Faith without works is dead...


Faith that receives the mercy of God in Christ brings salvation .... and that faith is accompanied by our works. You continue to entangle different things so as to eliminate Jesus as THE Savior. Again, my new Subaru has BOTH an engine and a radio, but it is absurd to argue that ERGO the radio propels the car... things may be associated but have different functions. God's GIFT of faith in our hearts receives the salvation that CHRIST gained and GIVES to us ("the free gift of God"); as faith relies on Christ alone (not on the dude we see in the mirror), it means salvation. Now, that faith is associated with other things but those other things don't displace Christ and render Him irrelevant.

You need to decide: Who is the Savior (in this sense of narrow justification), YOU or CHRIST? IF Jesus is just an example or inspiration, if Jesus is just the one who makes salvation POSSIBLE for us to achieve, if Jesus is just the OFFERER of salvation, if Jesus is just the Door Opener, then He is not the Savior (and in my opinion, it is deceptive to call Him what is not believed to be the case). If your works are what justifies, then Jesus' don't. If you save you then Jesus doesn't.




.
 
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Salvation by works satisfies the hunger we have to feel forgiven by making us feel we've earned it.
 

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Salvation by works satisfies the hunger we have to feel forgiven by making us feel we've earned it.

You can't earn salvation so if you feel like you did then you got it all wrong. Works are not a way to earn salvation works are part of the grace that saves. They are a gift from God. Ephesians 2:7-10 says so.
 

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We are only confusing to you because we are the Original Christians...
Actually, none of todays churches are the original church (although some may be closer than others), and the sooner people of whatever denomination or communion give up that boast, the better off we all will be for it.

:D
 

Josiah

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Actually, none of todays churches are the original church (although some may be closer than others), and the sooner people of whatever denomination or communion give up that boast, the better off we all will be for it.

:D


1. The "original Christians" were all dead by the early Second Century.

2. There was NO denomination for 300 years.... not the RCC, not the EOC, not the OOC, not the LDS. All those denominations CLAIM to have been founded directly and personally by Jesus but it's simply a historical fact that there were no denominations at all for 300 years. The first denomination was established by the Roman Empire for the Roman Empire and Jesus didn't found it. But that denomination did not include all Christian congregations or all Christian people (not even all that just happened to be within the boarders of the Roman Empire at that time) , and even that denomination only lasted for a bit over 100 years until it seriously split. That's NOT anything negative about any denomination, only the undeniable historic fact that denominations are OUR creation, PEOPLE formed them - I think wisely, but nonetheless, something BELIEVERS did (not Jesus).

3. There was LIKELY the "oral message" (in theology, this is called "the Kyergma") that preceded the verbal inspiration of the abiding WRITTEN words of God (God's inscripturated words) - Scripture (roughly 45-70 AD). Eye witnesses had their verbal testimony - a testimony that died with them. But it is only POSSIBLE to know what this kyergma was if it was written down. It's absurd for Mormons and others to insist that Jesus taught all kinds of dogmas that were "oral" but we have absoluttely no record of for CENTURIES - nothing to remotely substantiate that. We DO know what was written and affirmed as the words of God and canonical.... and that is found in 27 books, all in our NT. We have those objective, written, historic WORDS and we know the eye-witnesses affirmed those books and embraced them as authoritative because of the Author.



To the issue: Protestants believe that Jesus is the Savior. Period. Anything that undermines that is to be rejected. Anything that lifts high self rather than the Cross is to be rejected. Anything that makes Jesus just an inspiration or teacher or possibility-maker or door-opener or helper is to be boldly, loudly rejected and repudiated. The devil uses all his strength and cunning to try to make all this as complicated and complex as he can - all to make Jesus small and self big, all to get attention off the Cross and on the mirror, to get people to say "Jesus is the Savior but to be saved YOU gotta........." which is a repudiation of Christianity, the Gospel, the Christ.




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