Salvation

[MoreCoffee]

The law is not the mark because it cannot save and never could save. If the law could save then God would not have sent his Son to suffer and die. If the law could save then salvation would always have been by means of the law.

Galatians 3:15-29 15 Brothers (I speak according to man), if a man"s testament has been confirmed, no one would reject it or add to it. 16 The promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. He did not say, "and to descendents," as if to many, but instead, as if to one, he said, "and to your offspring," who is Christ. 17 But I say this: the testament confirmed by God, which, after four hundred and thirty years became the Law, does not nullify, so as to make the promise empty. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, then it is no longer of the promise. But God bestowed it to Abraham through the promise. 19 Why, then, was there a law? It was established because of transgressions, until the offspring would arrive, to whom he made the promise, ordained by Angels through the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not of one, yet God is one. 21 So then, was the law contrary to the promises of God? Let it not be so! For if a law had been given, which was able to give life, truly justice would be of the law. 22 But Scripture has enclosed everything under sin, so that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 But before the faith arrived, we were preserved by being enclosed under the law, unto that faith which was to be revealed. 24 And so the law was our guardian in Christ, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons of God, through the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ have become clothed with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither servant nor free; there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ"s, then are you the offspring of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.

 

[Arsenios]

Thanks for that powerful PROTESTANT proclamation (we were kicked out of the RCC for saying that).

Moving on from obsession is a good thing...

Getting over someone erring is a good thing...

Are you praying daily for the RCC and their faithful?

Such prayers are a good thing...

You have to do everything in your power...

In order that God should save you...

It is ALL up to you...

And God does it ALL...

The narrow and straited Way embraces both horns...

And "Few are they who find it..." as the Good Book records...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The Law is the "mark" - and we are told that EVERYONE misses the mark

Who told you that?

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thanks for that powerful PROTESTANT proclamation (we were kicked out of the RCC for saying that).

Who is this "we" of whom you wrote "we were kicked out of the RCC for saying that)"? Surely you were not formally excommunicated, were you?

 

[Josiah]

The law ... cannot save and never could save.

Right. So any effort to keep the Law accomplishes NOTHING in terms of justification. For one point, no one can keep it.... everyone misses the mark (which by definition makes them a sinner in need of justification). So, the flawed, inadequate efforts of the DEAD who are void of faith, life, the Holy Spirit (justification) aren't going to save themselves, are they?

So, it seems Luther and Calvin were right in the Reformation: Jesus is the Savior.... we are saved entirely by HIS works (and not a bit by ours).... we are saved because of HIS grace, mercy, love and not our love or efforts or works. But the RCC repudiated that. Made that the centerpiece of it's condemnation and repudiation of Protestantism.




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[MoreCoffee]

Right. So any effort to keep the Law accomplishes NOTHING in terms of justification. For one point, no one can keep it.

Jesus kept the law. That is one person who did. A man created in God's image. More than merely a man yet fully a man. Thus it is possible for a man to keep the law. And the law is just, holy, and good. Let us never denigrate the law as if it were wickedness. Weak as the law is in its ability to justify sinners it nevertheless is good and its principles are enduringly good. So a Christian will not stray far from God in seeking to live a life marked by the kind of goodness shown in the commandments. After all, the Lord himself lived his life in obedience to the law and he said "I have set an example for you to follow" - though he did say this specifically about his humble action in washing the feet of the disciples in the upper room on the night of his betrayal and arrest - and he did say that his hearers should do everything that was commanded of them by those who had the right to teach the law because "they sit in the seat of Moses". So the law serves a beneficial purpose in Christian living even though it cannot justify and was never intended to justify the faithful.
Romans 7:12 And so, the law itself is indeed holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.

... everyone misses the mark (which by definition makes them a sinner in need of justification). So, the flawed, inadequate efforts of the DEAD who are void of faith, life, the Holy Spirit (justification) aren't going to save themselves, are they?

So, it seems Luther and Calvin were right in the Reformation: Jesus is the Savior.... we are saved entirely by HIS works (and not a bit by ours).... we are saved because of HIS grace, mercy, love and not our love or efforts or works. But the RCC repudiated that. Made that the centerpiece of it's condemnation and repudiation of Protestantism.

Catholic Christians have always confessed that the law itself is indeed holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good and always seen themselves as those who can say But our way of life is in heaven. And from heaven, too, we await the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:20. So for the faithful Jesus is Lord and Saviour and no one else is.

 

[MennoSota]

The Law is the "mark" - and we are told that EVERYONE misses the mark (and thus, by biblical definition, are sinful and unclean). The Law does not provide salvation, it condemns us for who we are and reveals that what we desperately need is the SAVIOR.



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Right. The mark for holiness is perfect obedience of the law. We have all missed the mark. We missed so horribly bad that we were dead in our trespasses and sins.
A word study of the greek in Ephesians 2:1 presents this very truth. In Ephesians 2:5-6 the greek contrasts our missing the mark with God making us alive by causing us to not only meet the mark, but far exceed it in Christ Jesus. It is all God's doing.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus kept the law. That is one person who did. A man created in God's image.

YUP. Jesus - being GOD - kept the Law, always "hitting the mark." He is the only one who did..... so the Bible does not lie when it says we ALL fall short ('miss the mark') and that if anyone claims to be without sin, he is a liar.

Thus, looking to ANYONE (especially self) other than Jesus is foolishness in the extreme.

Weak as the law is in its ability to justify sinners

It is powerless. Unless you are absolutely PERFECT in holiness, righteous and love... in thought, word and deed..... in all done and not done..... from the moment of conception to death..... unless the Bible lies when it says that all have sinned and if any claims otherwise they are a LIAR.... then you fall short and miss the mark and thus by definition are a sinner in desperate need of salvation.


All other religions try to make God as small as possible and self as big as possible - usually by watering down the Law and puffing up man so that man is "good ENOUGH" - and thus needs no SAVIOR just a little help from a friend, just a door they can open by their goody-goodiness. Sad to see Christians abandon the whole point of Christianity in order to be more like pagan religions.

So a Christian will not stray far from God in seeking to live a life marked by the kind of goodness shown in the commandments.

Try to stay on topic, my brother..... NO ONE disagrees on what the faithful (those given faith) should do.... how those with spiritual life should live.... remember, we all totally agree on Sanctification. The dispute (as your denomination SO stresses) is in JUSTICATION - the coming to life, the granting of faith, the becoming a child of God. The Law cannot do that (thus all other religions are wrong), God must do that (which is why Christianity is right). I realize your denomination disagrees and split itself over that very point, but Protestants insist: Jesus is the Savior. Not self. We are justified by Jesus' works and His keeping the Law, not by our works and our failing to keep the Law.



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[MoreCoffee]

God gives salvation freely without requiring any payment and without any down-payment needed before it is received yet salvation is salvation from the consequences of sin - [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest; they are: fornication, lust, homosexuality, self-indulgence, [20] the serving of idols, drug use, hostility, contentiousness, jealousy, wrath, quarrels, dissensions, divisions, [21] envy, murder, inebriation, carousing, and similar things. About these things, I continue to preach to you, as I have preached to you: that those who act in this way shall not obtain the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21). So we ought always to remember that the wages of sin is death. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23). So good Christians strive to be holy and to eschew sin and you'll be doing well.

 

[Josiah]

So good Christians strive to be holy and to eschew sin and you'll be doing well.

Yup. EVERYONE has ALWAYS completely AGREED with that..... But TRY, my esteemed brother, to stay on topic.

The dispute (as your denomination SO stresses) is NOT Sanctification (what good Christians should do, living the spiritual life given to us, our gift of faith being faithful) but rather Justification - the gaining of faith, life, Holy Spirit, Justification. Luther said God GIVES this, that Jesus is the Savior - and your denomination was/is so horrified by that that it pushed out one-third of Catholics who agreed with it, split itself, and has been condemning the Lutheran position on Justification ever since. Whenever this topic comes up at CH, you are always quick to argue with Protestants on the issue of Justification (as Catholics tend to do). There's a reason you are so passionate in disagreeing with Luther, Lamm, Albion, MennoSota and myself on the topic of Justification - and it's not because you agree with the Protestant view that Jesus is the Savior. And it's not because you disagree with our position on Sanctification because no Christian disagrees with any Christians on that point.





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[MoreCoffee]

The thread's topic is outlined n the first post in this thread.

Salvation is not so easy to define. Some think of it as a kind of transaction where the sinner exercises faith in Jesus Christ and God forgives their sins and saves them. A done deal, all finished at the cross. Some think of salvation is a quest of sorts where the sinner repents and believes the gospel and God shows the way and gives food for the journey and rest and everything needed to complete the journey including medical/spiritual aid and emergency aid too with the final goal being salvation on the last day when Jesus says to the redeemed "well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into my Father's rest". There are variants on both of these views too and a few views that are outside the bounds set in the two mentioned above.

Is it enough to believe and is believing more than saying "yes that is right, I think that is true" and maybe acting on the belief or is there more to belief than that and does it mean living a life marked by holiness and prayer as well as generosity to others, love for others, and especially love for the 'brethren'; is a person saved by what they do as well as what they believe or is the doing greater than the believing or vice versa?

This is not intended as a second chapter of the Justification thread.

 

[Arsenios]

MoreCoffee had written:
The law ... cannot save and never could save.


You replied:

Right.

Too good - A congruence...

But then you write:

So any effort to keep the Law accomplishes NOTHING in terms of justification.

I assume you mean Justification (Narrow)... (eg Salvation) - But you are merely making an assertion without proof...

You see, it is one thing to say that making an effort to keep the Law (which we have to assume YOU mean the Levitical Law of Moses - correct me if I am wrong, I cannot speak for you) does not save a person, and this is because only God CAN Save a person, and a person cannot Save himself or herself by anything they do... But you take it further to say that that Salvation is totally unrelated to one's deeds... eg: "So any effort to keep the Law accomplishes NOTHING in terms of justification." Your very words... And you offer this without proof, and with closed ears to the fact that Scripture records Christ Himself saying that violent men are taking the Kingdom of Heaven by force since John the Baptist, because the Kingdom of Heaven since him has been permitting violence...

So what I want you to do is explain how it is that the siezing of the Kingdom of Heaven by force expended by violent men then relates to Salvation by God... And this so far you have managed to avoid doing... The two MUST go together... And I want you to EXPLAIN HOW they in fact DO go together...

For one point, no one can keep it.... everyone misses the mark (which by definition makes them a sinner in need of justification). So, the flawed, inadequate efforts of the DEAD who are void of faith, life, the Holy Spirit (justification) aren't going to save themselves, are they?

The above, for instance, is your simply human preference to IGNORE one horn of the dilemma... You opt for the God does is all pole, and ignore the holy words of the Word that violent men are siezing the Kingdom of Heaven...

Do you perhaps disagree with the idea that entry INTO the Kingdom of Heaven IS Salvation which INCLUDES Justification???

So, it seems Luther and Calvin were right in the Reformation: Jesus is the Savior.... we are saved entirely by HIS works (and not a bit by ours).... we are saved because of HIS grace, mercy, love and not our love or efforts or works. But the RCC repudiated that. Made that the centerpiece of it's condemnation and repudiation of Protestantism.

And this is the foil you continue to hoist without engaging actual arguments...

Do you agree that the Law of Faith is the Law of God??

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Do you agree that the Law of Faith is the Law of God??

Arsenios




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No. Faith is the free gift of God - it is not the Law.


Again, I'll ask: Who is the Savior? You have two choices - Jesus or the one you see in the mirror. Which is it? You can trust in YOU and YOUR perfect love, righteousness and works OR in Jesus'. Which is it? Answer the question and a lot comes into focus. The Devil will do ALL HE CAN to make this as complicated as he can.... to tug you as much as he can away from the Cross and to the mirror, I realize that, but you have the Holy Spirit and can give the Christian answer, the answer on which all of Christianity hinges.



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[MoreCoffee]

No. Faith is the free gift of God - it is not the Law.

Did you say "No" because you teach that faith has no law or did you say it for some other difference.

 

[Arsenios]

I had asked: "Do you agree that the Law of Faith is the Law of God?"

And you replied:

No.
Faith is the free gift of God -
it is not the Law.

Then should I correct Paul for you here?

Rom 3:27
Where is boasting then?
It is excluded.
By what Law?
Of works?
Nay:
But by the Law of Faith.

Are you really denying the "dia nomou pistewv" that Paul is using here: eg "Through the Law of Faith..." ??

He goes on to say that the Law of Faith establishes the Law of Works... Rom 3:31

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

I had asked: "Do you agree that the Law of Faith is the Law of God?"

And you replied:


Then should I correct Paul for you here?

Rom 3:27
Where is boasting then?
It is excluded.
By what Law?
Of works?
Nay:
But by the Law of Faith.

Are you really denying the "dia nomou pistewv" that Paul is using here: eg "Through the Law of Faith..." ??

He goes on to say that the Law of Faith establishes the Law of Works... Rom 3:31

Arsenios

Some versions say "the law that requires faith". That's a different meaning than what a Lutheran would say about "Law of faith is the Law of God". Definitions are extremely important.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some versions say "the law that requires faith". That's a different meaning than what a Lutheran would say about "Law of faith is the Law of God". Definitions are extremely important.

Albert Barnes writes.

Verse 27. Where is boasting then? Where is there ground or occasion of boasting or pride? Since all have sinned, and since all have failed of being able to justify themselves by obeying the law, and since all are alike dependent on the mere mercy of God in Christ, all ground of boasting is of course taken away. This refers particularly to the Jews, who were much addicted to boasting of their peculiar privileges. Rom 3:1, etc.

By what law? The word law here is used in the sense of arrangement, rule, or economy. By what arrangement, or by the operation of what rule, is boasting excluded? Stuart. See Gal 3:21, Acts 21:20.

Of works? The law which commands works, and on which the Jews relied. If this were complied with, and they were thereby justified, they would have had ground of self-confidence, or boasting, as being justified by their own merits. But a plan which led to this, which ended in boasting, and self-satisfaction, and pride, could not be true.

Nay. No.

The law of faith. The rule, or arrangement which proclaims that we have no merit; that we are lost sinners; and that we are to be justified only by faith.​

Barnes was a Presbyterian so his approach is, broadly speaking, Calvinist.

 

[Josiah]

Are you really denying the "dia nomou pistewv" that Paul is using here: eg "Through the Law of Faith..." ??

He goes on to say that the Law of Faith establishes the Law of Works... Rom 3:31

Arsenios

No. I'm simply saying that faith is not a good work we do that makes self the savior.... I'm disagreeing that faith is a good work. Yes, faith is required and in THAT sense is "law" since in one sense, "law" is the will of God. God WILLS all to have faith and thus is "law" in THAT limited sense. But it is not something we do that results in our salvation, as I noted, it is the FREE GIFT OF GOD.


There are two places where we may look for salvation: the mirror or the Cross, to self or to Jesus. Either Jesus saves or self saves.... either His works save or our works save.... ain't that complicated. BUT the devil will do all in his power to try to make it complicated.... all in his power to make Christ as small as possible and self as big as possible.... all in his power to try to make SELF the point of it all.... all in his power to give Jesus any OTHER role than Savior (perhaps possibility-maker, door opener, helper, inspiration, etc.) but to make self the Savior, what SELF accomplishes being the reason self gains justification. If what saves is OUR acomplishing the Law, then the Bible is wrong when it says that if our works save then Jesus was in vain.



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[MoreCoffee]

No. I'm simply saying that faith is not a good work we do

John 6:26-29 26 “In truth I tell you,”answered Jesus, “it is not because of the signs which you saw that you are looking for me, but because you had the bread to eat and were satisfied. 27 Work, not for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you; for on him the Father — God himself — has set the seal of his approval.” 28 “How,” they asked, “are we to do the work that God wants us to do?” 29 “The work that God wants you to do,”answered Jesus, “is to believe in him whom God sent as his messenger.”

God wants belief as the work human beings do.

that makes self the savior.... I'm disagreeing that faith is a good work. Yes, faith is required and in THAT sense is "law" since in one sense, "law" is the will of God. God WILLS all to have faith and thus is "law" in THAT limited sense. But it is not something we do that results in our salvation, as I noted, it is the FREE GIFT OF GOD.


There are two places where we may look for salvation: the mirror or the Cross, to self or to Jesus. Either Jesus saves or self saves.... either His works save or our works save.... ain't that complicated. BUT the devil will do all in his power to try to make it complicated.... all in his power to make Christ as small as possible and self as big as possible.... all in his power to try to make SELF the point of it all.... all in his power to give Jesus any OTHER role than Savior (perhaps possibility-maker, door opener, helper, inspiration, etc.) but to make self the Savior, what SELF accomplishes being the reason self gains justification. If what saves is OUR acomplishing the Law, then the Bible is wrong when it says that if our works save then Jesus was in vain.

 

[Josiah]

There are two places where we may look for salvation: the mirror or the Cross, to self or to Jesus. Either Jesus saves or self saves.... either His works save or our works save.... ain't that complicated. BUT the devil will do all in his power to try to make it complicated.... all in his power to make Christ as small as possible and self as big as possible.... all in his power to try to make SELF the point of it all.... all in his power to give Jesus any OTHER role than Savior (perhaps possibility-maker, door opener, helper, inspiration, etc.) but to make self the Savior, what SELF accomplishes being the reason self gains justification. If what saves is OUR acomplishing the Law, then the Bible is wrong when it says that if our works save then Jesus was in vain.

belief as the work human beings do.

God wants all to do all kinds of things..... It doesn't mean we can and it doesn't mean such is the reason for our justification. You are working HARD (in typical popular Catholic fashion) to confuse self with God, to confuse justification and sanctification, Law with Gospel - all to make Christ as small and irrelevant as possible, self as big and important as possible. I believe we ARE justified by works - JUST NOT OUR OWN but those of THE one, only, all-sufficient Savior - Jesus Christ. Which is what makes me a Christian.


Faith is the gift of God. NO ONE puts faith into their own heart, no one works faith. It is the free gift of God. Now, yes, God WILLS all have it (and thus in THAT limited sense, it is Law) but it is not something we create ourselves, it is the gift of God, the special work of the Holy Spirit.


Friend, there are only two places to look for justification: the mirror or the Cross, to self or to Jesus, YOUR works or CHRIST's works, your accomplishments or Christ's accomplishments. Make up your mind on this - and all the rest of theology falls into place and you clearly hold to Christianity (Jesus) or any of the other religions (self - helped by the divine). I believe Jesus is the Savior. I believe Jesus does the saving. Thus, everything associated with salvation (in this sense of narrow justification) belongs to Jesus and that the Bible is correct: if salvation depended on anything self does then Jesus was in vain, Christianity is wrong.



Read these...

1 Corinthians 6:11
1 Corinthians 2:14
Ephesians 2:8-9
1 Corinthians 12:3



- Josiah



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