Salvation

[Arsenios]

The Greek language is not dead.
It’s just the koine dialect that is no longer spoken,
meaning it is a dead language and needs to be studied in order to be understood properly.

Demotic Greek is the inheriter of Koine Greek...
My friend Leonides decries the translation of the Bible into current Athenian Demotic Greek...
In the Lord's Prayer, for instance, he complains:
"Give us this day our daily bread..."
Is now translated as:
"Give us this day a loaf of bread..."

I have a friend in Chicago who knows Ekklesiastical Greek, Demotic Greek, Katharovouska Greek, and Koine Greek, [and more if truth be told] as a Reader in his local Greek Orthodox Parish... And he can chant them all in the Services, which almost exclusively are chanted in the 8 Byzantine Tones of the Week in Koine and Ekklesiastical Greek...

Demotic Greek is simply evolved Koine - Leo would say DEvolved Greek...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Demotic Greek is the inheriter of Koine Greek...
My friend Leonides decries the translation of the Bible into current Athenian Demotic Greek...
In the Lord's Prayer, for instance, he complains:
"Give us this day our daily bread..."
Is now translated as:
"Give us this day a loaf of bread..."

I have a friend in Chicago who knows Ekklesiastical Greek, Demotic Greek, Katharovouska Greek, and Koine Greek, [and more if truth be told] as a Reader in his local Greek Orthodox Parish... And he can chant them all in the Services, which almost exclusively are chanted in the 8 Byzantine Tones of the Week in Koine and Ekklesiastical Greek...

Demotic Greek is simply evolved Koine - Leo would say DEvolved Greek...

Arsenios

I know a KJV only chap who is sure that English devolved after the KJV.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If there is no faith that is alone, then faith alone does not exist...

Logically you are arguing that something that does not exist is what saves you...

From the Orthodox point of view, it is not your faith that saves you anyway...

It is THE Faith which Christ discipled to His Apostles that is Christ's MEANS of bringing to us His Salvation...

That is why He discipled His Apostles and instructed them to teach us to carefully observe ALL that He had commanded them to be observing... There is no list in the Bible for all these Commandments... But there IS the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth, which IS the Ekklesia of God in Christ on earth... For the last 2000 years and counting... Against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail...

The Faith synergizes with one's works, and by the works is the Faith of Christ perfected in the Person following Him...
That is straight from James 2... Faith is perfected by works - They work together... Works are the means of perfecting the Faith of Christ IN you... The Faith IN which you are being discipled BY the Body of Christ Who IS Her Head... This means that IF you do not DO the works, the Faith will NOT be perfected - It will not mature... The works mature the Faith... Without YOU doing the works, the Faith, the Seed you received from the Sower, is still-born and dead...

You have to water the soil with your tears... Weed it of worldly cares... Say no to impure desires... And so on...

The Parable of the Sower is clear - A person must have good soil of himself - Must acquire and cultivate it - A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise... If you re-read the Parable of the Sower for what it is that the Sower brings, and what the various "soils" DO with that Calling, you will see that what WE bring to the Good Word of God is crucial... The same Grace is received differently by different people according to their preparation... Discipling is all about preparation to receive God's Grace... Make straight the Way of the Lord!

Faith alone without works will NEVER save you...
Faith synergizing with works will bring you to God...
And there, God will GIVE you the GIFT of Salvation...
The Gift is God Himself in union with you...

Arsenios

I enjoy seeing synergism written so often in the face of the advocates of monergism that is proclaimed as "faith alone".

 

[Arsenios]

I enjoy seeing synergism written so often in the face of the advocates of monergism that is proclaimed as "faith alone".

You do seem to have a penchant for such un-healthy enjoyments...

The word in James is SYNERGIZES...

Faith and works SYNERGIZE...

BY works is Faith matured/perfected...

Plain James 2...

Sigh.......

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

You do seem to have a penchant for such un-healthy enjoyments...

The word in James is SYNERGIZES...

Faith and works SYNERGIZE...

BY works is Faith matured/perfected...

Plain James 2...

Sigh.......

Arsenios

Nevertheless the linguistic irony makes me chuckle a little.

Lord have mercy.

 

[Arsenios]

Nevertheless the linguistic irony makes me chuckle a little.
Lord have mercy.

Indeed!

To say that a man's own doings have nothing to do with Salvation is patently false...
Man does just fine of his own doings in sins, and no-one denies this...
And IF man DOES his own sins, he has the POWER to DO his own sins...
And IF man has this power to DO sin, then he also has the power to NOT DO sin...
The power to self direct is a part of man created in the Image of God...
Directing one's self away from sin is repentance...
Anyone who is willing can DO self-denial...
That is why the Gospel records Christ's Holy Words:
IF anyone will come after Me, let him FIRST deny himself...
Self denial by the self denying itself is the first step of discipleship...
The Gospel does not say "IF the ELECT..."
It says "IF ANYONE..."

But there is a broader matter here...
Theology is not a systematic structuring of ideas...
The Faith Christ has given man is a Mystery...
It is entered through Discipleship...
And Discipleship is BY Christ THROUGH His Body, the Ekklesia...
Indeed the Bible was written BY those Holy Ones so discipled...
God wrote His Holy Bible using well discipled and Holy Hands...
Its understanding is for those so discipled...
For those not so discipled, it will be misunderstood...
For those so discipled, it can be misunderstood...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The problem with latter day Protestants is that they do not consider themselves disciples of Christ but instead see themselves as proclaimers of the Gospel, and some even proclaim the Gospel of Election, which is not in the Bible, but all seem to see the Bible as their private self discipling through their understanding of its words...

And many do not like to have the Great Commission pointed out to them, that Christ commissioned His Apostles to GO to ALL the Nations DISCIPLING them, and that He named the two things needed: Baptism into Christ, and Teaching them to be observing precisely ALL that Christ had COMMANDED them TO BE DOING...

So they have no keel and rudder by which to navigate the Sea of Holy Writ, which was written to and for those living the Faith in which they are discipled by the Apostolic Faith of Christ... The proof of the Faith of Christ is to be found not in the Bible but in Christ's Apostolic Discipling and the Purity of Heart attained therein... We are discipled to ATTAIN unto that purity of heart that shall see God, and in this, to become one with God and with those who WROTE the Holy Words of Scripture... Apart from this discipleship, we can only guess and prove to our own logical satisfaction what we think we understand from the words of the Book...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

The problem with latter day Protestants is that they do not consider themselves disciples of Christ but instead see themselves as proclaimers of the Gospel, and some even proclaim the Gospel of Election, which is not in the Bible, but all seem to see the Bible as their private self discipling through their understanding of its words...

Where oh where should we start when attempting to correct that collection of stereotypes and errors? :wink:

 

[MoreCoffee]

The problem with latter day Protestants is that they do not consider themselves disciples of Christ but instead see themselves as proclaimers of the Gospel, and some even proclaim the Gospel of Election, which is not in the Bible, but all seem to see the Bible as their private self discipling through their understanding of its words...

And many do not like to have the Great Commission pointed out to them, that Christ commissioned His Apostles to GO to ALL the Nations DISCIPLING them, and that He named the two things needed: Baptism into Christ, and Teaching them to be observing precisely ALL that Christ had COMMANDED them TO BE DOING...

So they have no keel and rudder by which to navigate the Sea of Holy Writ, which was written to and for those living the Faith in which they are discipled by the Apostolic Faith of Christ... The proof of the Faith of Christ is to be found not in the Bible but in Christ's Apostolic Discipling and the Purity of Heart attained therein... We are discipled to ATTAIN unto that purity of heart that shall see God, and in this, to become one with God and with those who WROTE the Holy Words of Scripture... Apart from this discipleship, we can only guess and prove to our own logical satisfaction what we think we understand from the words of the Book...

Arsenios

Protestants have their own culture and their own ways of looking at their 66 books of scripture. Each denomination has something of its own. Something that is distinctive to their way of teaching, worshipping, and praying. Most appear to agree on some matters.

I am happy in the barque of saint Peter.

 

[Arsenios]

Where oh where should we start when attempting to correct that collection of stereotypes and errors? :wink:

'Tis a broad brush, no question...

Luther weaponized the Gospel against what he understood to be the Church...

In this spawn, how can it be otherwise?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I am happy in the barque of saint Peter.

And I in the Ark of Salvation...

Kinda poetic, n'est pas?

Arsen

 

[MoreCoffee]

And I in the Ark of Salvation...

Kinda poetic, n'est pas?

Arsen

Same boat, same captain.

Lord have mercy.

 

[Albion]

'Tis a broad brush, no question...

Luther weaponized the Gospel against what he understood to be the Church...

In this spawn, how can it be otherwise?

Arsenios

Spawn? Could you possibly use more unChristian jargon when making your rather routine point? :huh: I am beginning to wonder if you really are a member of a religious order or a cleric or if you just "play one on the internet" (to paraphrase a famous line from TV)?

 

[Arsenios]

Spawn?

That was the fountainhead of the Reformation - eg Using Scripture to correct the Church... Private conscience vs the Church... Not understanding that God corrects the Church, not fallen human beings exercising their personal consciences... The Church corrects the Church... And not understanding that the Western Church in Rome had been in apostacy from the Communion of all the rest of the Apostolic Churches for 500 years... This approach makes certain that any results will be a secularization from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church - A reversion from the Faith given once for all to the Apostles, because in the mind of the Reformation, the Latin Church, to them THE Church, had gone seriously off the rails, and a new authority had to be established... And the Authority shifted from the Authoritarian Church to the authoritative Bible...

So this is the line that I am calling the spawn, and it was paid for in blood, in wars, in hatred and conflict - In the great religious wars of Europe...

Forgive me for using what I feel must have been an offensive term... For me it was merely descriptive... We see it to this day in the vehemence and scorn of many whose outlook demonizes the Latin Church... It is a matter of great sadness to see such stuff...

Could you possibly use more unChristian jargon when making your rather routine point? :huh: I am beginning to wonder if you really are a member of a religious order or a cleric or if you just "play one on the internet" (to paraphrase a famous line from TV)?

Well, I won't use spawn again then -
What is it about it that is so offensive?
And what term might you suggest I use?

Please forgive me!

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

The term spawn is usually in reference to a spawn of Satan.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The term spawn is usually in reference to a spawn of Satan.

Cute little froggies have spawn.

 

[Arsenios]

The term spawn is usually in reference to a spawn of Satan.

Aaaaaahhhhhhhhh!

THAT was the trigger...

Thank-you Lammchen!

My first 36 years were atheist, you see...

I was never a believing Protestant of any denom, even though baptized Presbyterian...

Am I safe to say "Spawn of Satan" is a Protestant term?

Most of my friends in the Church are recovering Protestants/Evangellicals...

But my Priest is a recovering atheist Jew...

Recovering atheists are hard to find...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Its a slur. OK?

 

[Arsenios]

Cute little froggies have spawn.

The spawn of sperm splayed sporifically, I spay!

There is just something about "sawn asunder" that also appeals...

A.

 

[Arsenios]

Its a slur. OK?

I get it - I did not know that it is a slur...

Will you please forgive me?

Arsenios