Salvation

[Arsenios]

I am beginning to wonder if capital first letters mean God or if they mean "I am giving emphasis to this"

I will let my dyslexic friend answer you:

They mean it is doG!

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Of course!

I mean, I do not have a spare God up my sleeve!

And if YOU find one there, kill me quick!

We are not Baptized INTO the incarnate Christ, but into the Risen Christ...

As Christ said to Mary of 7 demons, "Do not be touching me, for I have not yes ascended to My Father..."

So the quoted catechism does say that Grace seen from the perspective of the one receiving it is created, because it is given in time, so it cannot be timeless...

Are you following my issue here?

Arsenios

I think it is wise for me to say, "I am confident you will explain it" because i am persuaded that something beneficial will be presented for all readers.

 

[RichWh1]

Did somebody say otherwise?

You said Abraham was justified by works. The question is ‘ was it only Abraham who was justified by works or are all of us?
This is where many Christians disagree.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

You said Abraham was justified by works.

You do me too much honour. I repeated the words that saint James wrote.

James 2:21 ... Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his works, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. ​

The question is ‘ was it only Abraham who was justified by works or are all of us?
This is where many Christians disagree.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Saint James writes

James 2:24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave. 26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.​

 

[RichWh1]

You do me too much honour. I repeated the words that saint James wrote.

James 2:21 ... Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his works, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. ​

Saint James writes

James 2:24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave. 26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.​

What about St.Paul who wrote “if Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about but not before God”

Why does Rome agree with James yet disagree with Paul on the matter? I need to know!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

What about St.Paul who wrote “if Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about but not before God”

Why does Rome agree with James yet disagree with Paul on the matter? I need to know!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you think that saints Paul and James were contradicting one another?

 

[RichWh1]

Do you think that saints Paul and James were contradicting one another?

No. Catholic doctrine does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TurtleHare]

What about St.Paul who wrote “if Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about but not before God”

Why does Rome agree with James yet disagree with Paul on the matter? I need to know!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, yeah and there are plenty more verses that apply to by grace through faith for salvation than works for salvation as Rome insists happens because of one measly verse and how about this one that also shows they're wrong

2 Timothy 1:9-12
He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No. Catholic doctrine does.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is not right. Catholic teaching agrees with saints Paul and James, mainly because both saints are repeating in various ways and according to the needs of their congregations/readers what Jesus said.

 

[RichWh1]

That is not right. Catholic teaching agrees with saints Paul and James, mainly because both saints are repeating in various ways and according to the needs of their congregations/readers what Jesus said.

Then please reply to my post 185.
If Paul and James wrote the same thing please explain why they disagree.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

Then please reply to my post 185.
If Paul and James wrote the same thing please explain why they disagree.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did with post 186

Do you think that saints Paul and James were contradicting one another?

 

[RichWh1]

I did with post 186

You tell me because they are saying something different. One says works the other says no works.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

You tell me because they are saying something different. One says works the other says no works.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The difficulty that appears to be confusing you is that saint James tells us he is writing about faith without works to which he refers as "faith alone" and saint Paul is writing about faith that is active in love, that is to say faith with works. But saint Paul also writes about works of the Law as works without faith which is "works alone" so to say, or "works of the Law" which some evidently thought could justify. Does that help?

 

[Albion]

Not until the two different meanings of Faith Alone are recognized, no.

Until then, it will continue to be an exchange between opposing sides using the same wording but meaning something completely different by it--pretty much the situation that St. James was addressing in his epistle, if you think about it.

 

[RichWh1]

I know that James was writing to Jewish believers while Paul was writing to both Jew and Gentile believers

Maybe that’s why their letters differ in content and context.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Arsenios]

I think it is wise for me to say, "I am confident you will explain it" because i am persuaded that something beneficial will be presented for all readers.

I wish I knew how to make it more clear...

Your catechism tells us that the same saving grace is both created and uncreated depending on how one looks at it...

Why does it teach this?

eg To what purpose?

Theology being practical, that is...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

I wish I knew how to make it more clear...

Your catechism tells us that the same saving grace is both created and uncreated depending on how one looks at it...

Why does it teach this?

eg To what purpose?

Theology being practical, that is...

Arsenios

I imagine it is taught because the teachers believe it to be true. Is it true in your opinion? But be careful to look at what is written rather than what is perceived or reasoned to be the "meaning" of what is written.

 

[Arsenios]

I imagine it is taught because the teachers believe it to be true. Is it true in your opinion? But be careful to look at what is written rather than what is perceived or reasoned to be the "meaning" of what is written.

I did that line by line and the result was no comprehension because I had not mentioned why grace was deemed created - eg that it had a beginning in time in the person receiving it... So now I ask why that would make it created... And I am still not understood...

We can let it go...


Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

I imagine it is taught because the teachers believe it to be true. Is it true in your opinion? But be careful to look at what is written rather than what is perceived or reasoned to be the "meaning" of what is written.

It sounds as if you are saying that because the teachers believe something to be true it necessarily is true.
That sounds like circular reasoning. It is also subjective and not quantitative.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Arsenios]

Here was the initial query:

Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
First from CatholicCulture

Catholic Dictionary
Term
UNCREATED GRACE

Definition
God himself, insofar as in his love has predetermined gifts of grace.
there are three forms of uncreated grace:
the hypostatic union, the divine indwelling, and the beatific vision.

In the first of these, God has communicated himself
in the Incarnation of Christ's humanity (the grace of union)
so intimately that Jesus of Nazareth is a divine person.

In the second and third communications,
the souls of the justified on earth and of the glorified in heaven
are elevated to a share in God's own life.

all three are created graces, considered as acts,
since they all had a beginning in time.

But the gift that is conferred on a creature in these acts is uncreated.
MC, does this make any sense at all to you?

It states:

there are three forms of uncreated grace:
THEN
all three are created graces
But the gift conferred on a creature is uncreated...

The reason given is that it is all a matter of how we are considering them???

It is a matter of OUR psycho-epistemology??

And THEN at the end:

grace escapes our experience
and cannot be known except by faith.

I cannot find any coherence in any of this at all...

How on earth can uncreated grace be created grace due to it being an action in time?

That is the same as saying God becomes not-God in time...

I know you tried to answer it comparing the human and divine natures of Christ in time...

Which does not answer it at all - His Divine Nature was not altered by His human nature...

But his human nature was altered...

Arsenios​