Salvation

[MennoSota]

Notice the dependency upon church tradition as the means of defining salvation. Also, notice how convoluted it becomes. It is the same thing that turned Judaism into the mess it became in Jesus day. Commentation had become more authorative than scripture. Tradition was more important than God. So much so that when God came to man, man wanted God killed rather than believe Him.
Salvation is simply when God comes to rebels and plucks them out of their doom.
Have you been plucked out of your doom by God or are you still trying to save yourself from your hopeless entanglement?

 

[Albion]

I know that James was writing to Jewish believers while Paul was writing to both Jew and Gentile believers

Maybe that’s why their letters differ in content and context.

They're actually saying approximately the same thing as concerns Faith, although James goes into the matter of false claims of Faith.

 

[Arsenios]

They're actually saying approximately the same thing as concerns Faith, although James goes into the matter of false claims of Faith.

James was addressing the same misunderstandings of Paul that we are finding here on this forum...

If you claim faith and do not do the works of the faith you claim, you do not have the faith you claim...

But James goes further, because he writes that the works of faith are perfecting the faith working them...

And the word he uses is "synergy" -
Faith and works synergize -
Faith motivates the works, and the doing of the works matures (makes perfected) the faith...

The old adage is: "Practice makes perfect..."

Without the doing of the works of faith, the faith is stillborn and will die...

Immature faith has few works...

Faith perfected lives in works...

The primary work of faith is the overcoming of sin in one's own soul...

We do what we can, and God completes it...

If we do not do what we can, then God does not complete it...

This is called healing of soul from the wounds of sin...

And sometimes, we are left for dead along the road by the demonic powers...

"A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise..."

Christ will give the initial healing Himself...
And then take the broken sinner to the Inn...
And the Inn will complete the work of healing him...
And Christ will reimburse those giving care for his soul...

The Inn is the Church...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

James was addressing the same misunderstandings of Paul that we are finding here on this forum...

If you claim faith and do not do the works of the faith you claim, you do not have the faith you claim...

That's right.

Faith motivates the works, and the doing of the works matures (makes perfected) the faith...

No, Faith is like pregnancy. You either are or are not.

There are not gradations or levels of Faith. There is Faith or (as James maintains) a false so-called Faith that does not have the quality of real Faith.

Without the doing of the works of faith, the faith is stillborn and will die...

Immature faith has few works...

If no works are forthcoming, it wasn't Faith in the first place.

However...I hope we aren't about to fall back into precisely what I said earlier is the problem with all these Faith vs Works debates--both sides using the same language while meaning completely opposite concepts BY the use of that terminology.

 

[MennoSota]

James was addressing the same misunderstandings of Paul that we are finding here on this forum...

If you claim faith and do not do the works of the faith you claim, you do not have the faith you claim...

But James goes further, because he writes that the works of faith are perfecting the faith working them...

And the word he uses is "synergy" -
Faith and works synergize -
Faith motivates the works, and the doing of the works matures (makes perfected) the faith...

The old adage is: "Practice makes perfect..."

Without the doing of the works of faith, the faith is stillborn and will die...

Immature faith has few works...

Faith perfected lives in works...

The primary work of faith is the overcoming of sin in one's own soul...

We do what we can, and God completes it...

If we do not do what we can, then God does not complete it...

This is called healing of soul from the wounds of sin...

And sometimes, we are left for dead along the road by the demonic powers...

"A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise..."

Christ will give the initial healing Himself...
And then take the broken sinner to the Inn...
And the Inn will complete the work of healing him...
And Christ will reimburse those giving care for his soul...

The Inn is the Church...

Arsenios

Paul had no misunderstanding. Paul was inspired by God, as was James.
James is not saying that humans are justified before God by their works. James is saying that true faith is evidenced by its works. Faith, given as a gift by God, is what justifies us and that God-given faith displays itself in good works. Therefore, if James audience wants to justify their claims of faith...they will be displaying good works.
This has been explained thoroughly and completely in the justification topics. MC and Arsenios simply blow it off and keep pushing something else that ends up being merit based rather than grace based. If they wish to run down that false path then let them run. It is no different than the people who ran down a false path in Pilgrims Progress.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not until the two different meanings of Faith Alone are recognized, no.

Until then, it will continue to be an exchange between opposing sides using the same wording but meaning something completely different by it--pretty much the situation that St. James was addressing in his epistle, if you think about it.

Saint Paul never mentions "faith alone" so where do these "two" different meanings arise? Saint James does mention "faith alone" and he says it is dead. That is one meaning. But where is the other "meaning"? It isn't in saint Paul because he doesn't ever say "faith alone" and evidently never intends faith to be alone in Christian life.

 

[Albion]

Saint Paul never mentions "faith alone" so where do these "two" different meanings arise?

Paul spoke to the matter of saving Faith, not something else.

Saint James does mention "faith alone" and he says it is dead.

Heres Ellicotts commentary on that point:

(24) Ye see then how that by works . . .--Observe that St. James says a man is not justified "by faith only," putting the adverb in the last and most emphatic position. He never denies Justification by Faith; but that fancied one of idle, speculative, theoretic faith, with no corresponding acts of love.

That is one meaning.

That's two.

1. Faith that alone saves.
2. Faith that is not alone in the life of the saved person.


.

 

[MennoSota]

Saint Paul never mentions "faith alone" so where do these "two" different meanings arise? Saint James does mention "faith alone" and he says it is dead. That is one meaning. But where is the other "meaning"? It isn't in saint Paul because he doesn't ever say "faith alone" and evidently never intends faith to be alone in Christian life.

You really struggle with faith having an active component. Instead you attempt to make two separate things faith alone and works alone. They aren't separate. Under the umbrella of faith there is action.

 

[Arsenios]

Faith is like pregnancy. You either are or are not.

There is maturity in faith, and there is immaturity in faith...

There are not gradations or levels of Faith.

There are levels of maturity...

There is Faith or (as James maintains) a false so-called Faith that does not have the quality of real Faith.

There is living faith and there is dead faith...

If no works are forthcoming, it wasn't Faith in the first place.

The Parable of the Sower comes to mind...

The world seeks to devour the Sower's Seeds...

Which is why our doing of the works of faith is so essential to the faith...

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
and
by works was faith made perfect?

"Wrought with" is the term "synergizes"...

And works mature the faith in us...

The relationship of faith and works is SYNERGISTIC...

They are INTERDEPENDENT...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Paul spoke to the matter of saving Faith, not something else.

Is it not God Who Saves?

YOUR faith CANNOT save you...

ONLY God CAN save you...

And it begins with God's Call to Repentance unto Baptism and Justification therein...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

It was past due sorry

 

[NewCreation435]

That's right.


No, Faith is like pregnancy. You either are or are not.

There are not gradations or levels of Faith. There is Faith or (as James maintains) a false so-called Faith that does not have the quality of real Faith.


If no works are forthcoming, it wasn't Faith in the first place.

However...I hope we aren't about to fall back into precisely what I said earlier is the problem with all these Faith vs Works debates--both sides using the same language while meaning completely opposite concepts BY the use of that terminology.

If there are no levels of faith then why did Jesus speak of having faith as small as a mustard seed? Of course there are levels of faith

 

[MennoSota]

Is it not God Who Saves?

YOUR faith CANNOT save you...

ONLY God CAN save you...

And it begins with God's Call to Repentance unto Baptism and Justification therein...

Arsenios

Salvation begins with God's choice to pluck us from our doom and adopt us as His own. It ends with God calling us His child.
That is it.

 

[MennoSota]

No amount of repentance or beating of the body can save us from our fate. Only God can save us.
From "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked. His wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire. He is of purer eyes than to bear you in his sight; you are ten thousand times as abominable in his eyes as the most hateful, venomous serpent is in ours.

You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince, and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else that you did not got to hell the last night; that you were suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God provoking his pure eye by your sinful, wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.

O sinner! consider the fearful danger you are in! It is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath that you are held over in the hand of that God whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of Divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it and burn it asunder. . . .

Pray that God's mercy is followed by His gracious salvation in plucking you from the sure flames.

 

[RichWh1]

Janes writes “If a man says he has faith. Notice he didn’t write if a man has faith.
So we can assume Paul was writing about true believers vs what James wrote about so called believers.
That would make a lot more sense.

Anyone disagree?



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[MoreCoffee]

Janes writes “If a man says he has faith. Notice he didn’t write if a man has faith.
So we can assume Paul was writing about true believers vs what James wrote about so called believers.
That would make a lot more sense.

Anyone disagree?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am not sure why this matters since saint James makes it clear that he is using the word "faith" mostly to designate belief without works and belief without the-life-of-Christ in a good part of chapter two of his letter. He refers to the 'faith' (belief) of demons and he refers to faith that is dead.

Saint Paul on the other hand discusses faith that works in love and is instrumental in justifying. Saint Paul's references are to living faith.

Saint James and Saint Paul both teach and believe that "the just shall be made righteous by faith" in the case of saint James it is "living faith" that justifies, and as saint James explains living faith is rich in good works. In the case of saint Paul it is "faith" and it works in love. The faith that saint Paul describes does not depend on "works of the law" for righteousness it receives and basks in Christ's righteousness as an adopted son who is in Christ. Saint Paul does not envision faith lacking goodness, estranged from obedience, apart from love. For saint Paul faith is exactly what saint James means by faith perfected by works.

Thus saint James says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" meaning that "faith perfected by works" is living and saints Paul says "we are justified by faith apart from works of the law" meaning that faith working in love justifies and works of the law do not justify anybody.

Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say to you that if you will be circumcised, Christ profits you nothing. 3 But I testify again to every person who is circumcised, that he is obligated to observe all of the written Law. 4 You have been destroyed from Christ, those of you who are justified by that in the written Law, and you have fallen from grace. 5 For we wait for the hope of righteousness by The Spirit who is of the faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus, circumcision is not anything, neither is uncircumcision, only faith that is perfected in love.

 

[MennoSota]

Thus saint James says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" meaning that
"faith perfected by works"
is living and saints Paul says "we are justified by faith apart from works of the law" meaning that faith working in love justifies and works of the law do not justify anybody.

Faith can never be perfected by works. It is the equivalent of saying "God can be perfected by man." It is a silly statement.
Faith makes the work perfect because faith is from God. Faith is from God alone so no one can boast. Since Faith is a product from God, it cannot be perfected by the willpower of man and his efforts.

 

[RichWh1]

I am not sure why this matters since saint James makes it clear that he is using the word "faith" mostly to designate belief without works and belief without the-life-of-Christ in a good part of chapter two of his letter. He refers to the 'faith' (belief) of demons and he refers to faith that is dead.

Saint Paul on the other hand discusses faith that works in love and is instrumental in justifying. Saint Paul's references are to living faith.

Saint James and Saint Paul both teach and believe that "the just shall be made righteous by faith" in the case of saint James it is "living faith" that justifies, and as saint James explains living faith is rich in good works. In the case of saint Paul it is "faith" and it works in love. The faith that saint Paul describes does not depend on "works of the law" for righteousness it receives and basks in Christ's righteousness as an adopted son who is in Christ. Saint Paul does not envision faith lacking goodness, estranged from obedience, apart from love. For saint Paul faith is exactly what saint James means by faith perfected by works.

Thus saint James says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" meaning that "faith perfected by works" is living and saints Paul says "we are justified by faith apart from works of the law" meaning that faith working in love justifies and works of the law do not justify anybody.

Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say to you that if you will be circumcised, Christ profits you nothing. 3 But I testify again to every person who is circumcised, that he is obligated to observe all of the written Law. 4 You have been destroyed from Christ, those of you who are justified by that in the written Law, and you have fallen from grace. 5 For we wait for the hope of righteousness by The Spirit who is of the faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus, circumcision is not anything, neither is uncircumcision, only faith that is perfected in love.

Words matter and so do the reasons people use them! You are trying to justify yourself by your works rather than your faith!!

It is possible for a person to say that he has faith! An atheist can say that! Doesn’t make it so does it? No!
That is WHY it matters!

Abraham lived before the Law was given and was justified by his faith!
The quote both Paul and James use are the same “What does Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness ‘“
What did Abraham do? He believed God.

If words don’t matter then nothing anyone says on this board matters! Get the drift!?


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[Albion]

Is it not God Who Saves?

YOUR faith CANNOT save you...

ONLY God CAN save you...

This kind of overly coy reply doesn't help any discussion IMO.

We all know that God is the cause of our salvation; we haven't been talking about that, let alone challenging it. The issue concerns the means used by God to effectuate it.

 

[Albion]

If there are no levels of faith then why did Jesus speak of having faith as small as a mustard seed? Of course there are levels of faith

He also spoke of that Kingdom as being like a mustard seed: “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches.” (Luke 13:18-19) This is not literally possible, however. Jesus was simply making a point.