Justification - Part 2

[TurtleHare]

If we are made totally right with God instantly once for all time, then we cannot sin...

Because sin is not right with God...

This Faith is an ongoing and lifetime struggle in this fallen human condition...

That struggle is willful...

God works on us through our struggle...

But what I was asking Menno was to show HOW my post was about Sanctificaton and not Justification...

I mean, when we are Baptized INTO Christ, we are Saved, we are Justified, and we are Sanctified...

And then we have our first secular/carnal thought after that event...

And the struggle is engaged...

One is never more pure nor more holy than when one emerges from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration...

Not all retain it...

But keeping that purity and sanctity is the Path of Salvation after Baptism...

And it is discipled by the Church...

Arsenios

Believers have the Holy Spirit living inside them and you're insisting that they're not holy because they gotta work to try to keep themselves holy? You forgot about the Holy Spirit didn't you?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that out of works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.

There is no way to parse this sentence except to say that a man is Justified out of his works, and it is peerfectly consonant with the fact that it is God Who Justifies a man...

As a simple matter of fact, (and this is perhaps a fact outside the experience of most here,) works and not faith are the basis on which God Justifies a person... A person can have no faith in God whatsoever, can deny the very existence of God, and yet be utterly committed to what is good and opposed to what is evil, and God will Justify that person... And that fact of existence is as foreign to many here as is the de-nuclearization of North and South Korea under the Trump Presidency...

Arsenios

There is no 'period' after the word "works", but a 'comma' followed by "...and not by faith alone". I'm not sure how that sentence, then, becomes "a man is justified out of his works" - full stop - when it's clearly not the end of the thought. Works and not faith are not the basis on which God justifies a person, but works and faith. One who denies the existence of God has no faith, and does not, then, meet one of the qualifications - he is no more justified than a philanthropist who gives away all he has out of a "good heart" and for accolades, but "denies the very existence of God"

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not everyone, DHoffman. There is a big butt, added by some.

I do hope that "butt" is a typo or a spelling error. The conjunction is spelled "but" whereas "butt" is short for buttocks....

The post is for information purposes only.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You seem to be talking in circles. Using different words and saying the same thing.

Either Scripture comparison is correct or it isn’t. Can’t be both as you are trying to make it.



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Okay, I am wondering why you wrote what you did.

I wrote "Yes, not comparing scripture with scripture only but understanding each scripture by experiencing it in life - reading about how to swim will never teach what actually swimming can teach about swimming. The same is true of the holy scriptures, reading and quoting scripture will never teach what obeying the holy scriptures in life can teach. Experience gives depth that a two dimensional page cannot."

I can expand it a little by adding a few words to clarify. "It is not enough to engage in comparing scripture with scripture. One must also add to scripture comparison the understanding of scripture that comes by experiencing it in life. As a simile; reading about how to swim will never teach as much as actually swimming will teach about swimming. In the same way it is also true that reading and quoting holy scripture will never teach as much as believing and obeying the holy scriptures in life will teach. Experience gives depth that a two dimensional page cannot."

If greater clarity is what you were asking for then I hope the above will help and if greater clarity is not what you were asking for then please explain what you want.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree with James c
100%
Without works faith is dead!!.
But as I stated above in a reply to Menno, Faith produces good works.
Works does not come before the Faith but after the Faith. Menno suggest that you are all ignorant of the word and have no faith or belief in the Lord because you emphasis on works to justify ones faith before God,
This is borderline sorcery because he is trying to rationalize and measure your emphasis when there is none, he will deny this because he probably believes that because your are Catholic that you are a traditionalist and are an unlearned apostate who believes that you must build a tower to Heaven.
You have made it very clear that works is clearly after accepting faith and go hand to hand as faith encourages and produces good works.

I am not sure why the order of "faith" and "works" is such a sticking point for you. It is obvious, I think, that both faith and works must come together before the "faith" can be considered "Christian faith" because "Christian faith" requires "works" in order to be "Christian faith". Let me give an example in a simile drawn from the creation story. Adam was created from the dust of the ground. He was a human being but dead because he had no life in him. So, the holy scriptures tell us, God breathed into Adam's nostrils "the spirit of life" and when Adam received the "spirit of life" Adam became a "living soul". Some translations say "the breath of life" because in Hebrew "breath" and "spirit" are the same word. If you prefer "breath of life" then "Adam became a living soul" when he started breathing and not before. Breathing takes some effort, not a whole lot of effort but some. So Adam was dead until he started breathing. And since breathing is an effort - which is a work - Adam was alive from the moment he started working. In a similar way a "Christian" is dead until he/she receives "the spirit of life in Christ Jesus" which could be translated from the Greek language as "the breath of life in Christ Jesus" because in Greek "spirit" and "breath" are the same world. And a Christian receives "new life in Christ" when he/she starts "breathing" or "spiriting". "Breathing" and "spiriting" are the same word in Greek. Breathing takes some effort and even though it is only a little effort it still takes some effort. And since "effort" is "work" for a Christian to receive "new life in Christ Jesus" he/she must "work". There's no life in the Christian life without work. In fact saint James says exactly that when he says that "faith without works is dead".

I hope this helps to clarify why "faith and works" go together to make "life in Christ".

 

[MennoSota]

Why are YOU repenting?

I mean, I get mad and flip off a bad driver on the road and yell unseemly things at her... Perhaps suggesting certain facts not necessarily in evidence about her ancestors or thereabouts...

Now in your view, I am in a POSITION of Holiness before God...
And I have just WALKED outside this POSITION... Yes?

So what do I now need to do and why?

Arsenios

I explained this. If you don't understand then read your Bible. It's clear I can't enlighten you.

 

[MennoSota]

So which which is which?

Saying so don't make it so...

Gotta show so...

Perhaps it's hard for you to show the difference???

Arsenios

Again, read the scriptures. Look up sanctification, which is synonymous with holy and set - apart.
How are you so ignorant?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Again, read the scriptures. Look up sanctification, which is synonymous with holy and set - apart.
How are you so ignorant?

In the holy scriptures the only passages that mention (in the KJV) the word "sanctification are found in 1Corinthians 1:30, 1Thessalonians 4:3, 1Thessalonians 4:4, 2Thessalonians 2:13, 1Peter 1:2, Sirach 7:31. Which one or ones do you want us to give special attention?

 

[MennoSota]

In the holy scriptures the only passages that mention (in the KJV) the word "sanctification are found in 1Corinthians 1:30, 1Thessalonians 4:3, 1Thessalonians 4:4, 2Thessalonians 2:13, 1Peter 1:2, Sirach 7:31. Which one or ones do you want us to give special attention?

Throw out the apocryphal stuff.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Throw out the apocryphal stuff.

There is none in the KJV verses mentioned. It's all canon.

 

[Andrew]

I'm not so sure that James was writing to pagans. He starts his letter like this:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ, sends greetings to the twelve tribes scattered among the nations.​

The twelve tribes fell into idolatry too

 

[MoreCoffee]

The twelve tribes fell into idolatry too

Not the ones James to which was writing.

 

[MennoSota]

There is none in the KJV verses mentioned. It's all canon.

Only in your little world, MC.
Now...back to justification...of which I cannot help you. I dust off my sandals.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Only in your little world, MC.
Now...back to justification...of which I cannot help you. I dust off my sandals.

Yes, back to justification. I didn't think you'd want to discuss "sanctification" despite it being a topic you raised. I also had my doubts that you'd want to discuss the verses in the KJV that use the word "sanctification"; specifically 1Corinthians 1:30, 1Thessalonians 4:3, 1Thessalonians 4:4, 2Thessalonians 2:13, 1Peter 1:2, Sirach 7:31.

 

[Andrew]

I am not sure why the order of "faith" and "works" is such a sticking point for you. It is obvious, I think, that both faith and works must come together before the "faith" can be considered "Christian faith" because "Christian faith" requires "works" in order to be "Christian faith". Let me give an example in a simile drawn from the creation story. Adam was created from the dust of the ground. He was a human being but dead because he had no life in him. So, the holy scriptures tell us, God breathed into Adam's nostrils "the spirit of life" and when Adam received the "spirit of life" Adam became a "living soul". Some translations say "the breath of life" because in Hebrew "breath" and "spirit" are the same word. If you prefer "breath of life" then "Adam became a living soul" when he started breathing and not before. Breathing takes some effort, not a whole lot of effort but some. So Adam was dead until he started breathing. And since breathing is an effort - which is a work - Adam was alive from the moment he started working. In a similar way a "Christian" is dead until he/she receives "the spirit of life in Christ Jesus" which could be translated from the Greek language as "the breath of life in Christ Jesus" because in Greek "spirit" and "breath" are the same world. And a Christian receives "new life in Christ" when he/she starts "breathing" or "spiriting". "Breathing" and "spiriting" are the same word in Greek. Breathing takes some effort and even though it is only a little effort it still takes some effort. And since "effort" is "work" for a Christian to receive "new life in Christ Jesus" he/she must "work". There's no life in the Christian life without work. In fact saint James says exactly that when he says that "faith without works is dead".

I hope this helps to clarify why "faith and works" go together to make "life in Christ".

Right, one does not come before the other to justify the other, works and faith are the alpha and omega of justification, faith alone is dead without works, works alone is not faith.
When I say FAITH just look at it like a dollar bill that has debt added to it, we don't call the dollar "dept".... We call it a dollar.
Same way I see faith... Its faith plus works and that is how you are Justified....

And let me repeat myself once more for those who still dont get it. NO ONE HERE BELIEVES THAT WORKS ALONE CAN SAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So stop assuming that we are antichrist trying to earn salvation or workers of the law without the Messiah and his offering!

If someone here says "by works alone" believe me THEN we would have us a debate.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

In the holy scriptures the only passages that mention (in the KJV) the word "sanctification are found in 1Corinthians 1:30, 1Thessalonians 4:3, 1Thessalonians 4:4, 2Thessalonians 2:13, 1Peter 1:2, Sirach 7:31. Which one or ones do you want us to give special attention?

Throw out the apocryphal stuff.

Can't you just answer the question?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Sirach 7:31 doesn't mention sanctification - or am I missing something? Just curious...

 

[MennoSota]

Three Questions About Romans 15:14–21
Let's look at our text and try to answer three questions:

What is sanctification?
Why is it so important?
How can we be sanctified?
1. What Is Sanctification?*
At the end of Romans 15:15 Paul says, "Grace has been given to me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." Focus for a moment on this one fact: sanctification is the goal of Paul's missionary labor. He pictures himself as a priest. His ministry as a priest is to preach the gospel. And the offerings he brings to God as a priest are Gentiles. And these Gentiles are acceptable because they are sanctified. Paul is not merely aiming for converts; he is aiming to make people sanctified.

As soon as we see clearly that the aim of Paul's missionary labor is sanctification, we can get a very clear idea of what sanctification is by reading verse 18 which describes the aim of his life in different words: "I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles." What is the aim of Paul's missionary labor in this verse? Or more precisely, what does Christ aim to achieve through Paul's missionary labor? Answer: he aims to win obedience from the Gentiles.

So here's what I conclude. Since the aim of Paul's ministry in verse 16 is to present Gentiles to God who are sanctified, and in verse 18 Christ's aim in Paul's ministry is the obedience of the Gentiles, therefore sanctification means obedience to Christ. Jesus himself told us what the aim of missionary labor should be: "Go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." The aim of Christian missions is to cause people to obey a new Commander. Sanctification is happening where the words of Jesus are being obeyed.

Romans 6:17–19 confirms that we've gotten on track with Paul in connecting obedience and sanctification. Verse 17: "Thanks be to God that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed." Then verse 19b: "For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification." If you put verse 17 beside verse 19, you see the same thing we saw in Romans 15. Obedience to the teaching of Christ in verse 17 is the same as sanctification in verse 19. So the process of becoming sanctified is the process of more consistently and more fervently (note "from the heart," Romans 6:17) obeying Jesus Christ. (See also 1 Peter 1:2 for another connection of sanctification and obedience.)

2. Why Is Sanctification So Important?*
One of our goals at Bethlehem is to be a people with a wartime mentality and a wartime lifestyle. A people who see the warmth and beauty of spring but do not forget that vast populations of our world and vast regions of the human heart are ice-bound by unbelief; that every season of the year Satan is fighting with his forces to resist the liberation troops of the gospel and expand his own deadly kingdom. God helping us, we will not be a people with a peacetime mentality. Daffodils and tulip blossoms and Aspen leaves and carpets of grass will not make us think the millennium has come.

The war rages on right through the summer. Every new, fresh, beautiful leaf is an offer of love from God to a rebellious world. The deep blue sky and the warm sun and the cumulus clouds are a merciful call to repentance before the final storm gathers. Every softball game, every fishing trip, every hour in the garden, every day at the lake is a field of conflict. And there are a hundred ways for you to gain victory over evil in the power of Christ and advance his cause in the way you work and play this summer—if you maintain a wartime mentality.

And what Paul has done for us in Romans 15:16 and 18 is to define sanctification so that it can be a part of our wartime vocabulary. Sanctification is obeying the Commander-in-Chief. Sanctification is a wartime word. A sanctified person has unswerving commitment to his cause. A sanctified person has uncompromising loyalty to the Commander and to his comrades in arms. So whenever you think of sanctification, think of wartime missions and wartime character. It was the goal of Paul's mission strategy, and it was the radical obedience that fulfilled that goal from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum (Romans 15:19).

3. How Does Sanctification Come About?*
If we go back now to Romans 15, we can see how sanctification comes about. Let's start again at the end of verse 15. The first and highest foundation of sanctification is the grace of God. According to verse 15, God's grace turned Paul into a minister of Christ. Moved by this grace, then, Paul undertakes the service of the gospel—he preaches the good news that Christ died for sinners and offers eternal joy to those who believe. According to verse 16, then, the result of this preaching is that Gentiles become sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Let's try to picture it like this. Visualize a triangle with the grace of God at the top point. The free grace of God is the foundation of everything. On one side of the triangle this grace is poured out into a man named Paul. It utterly revolutionizes his life and he becomes the ambassador of Christ preaching the gospel to Gentiles. So one of the bottom corners of the triangle is the apostle Paul. Now he moves out along the base of the triangle to preach the gospel to the unbeliever at the other corner of the triangle. The goal of this preaching is a sanctified believer (verse 16).

But verse 16 says that a person is sanctified by the Holy Spirit, not just by the preaching of the gospel. So the other side of the triangle is the power of the Holy Spirit flowing out from God's grace and opening the person's heart to receive the gospel (Acts 16:14). Sanctification happens when the gospel preached and the Spirit poured out meet with power in the human heart.
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/how-the-spirit-sanctifies

 

[RichWh1]

Sirach 7:31 doesn't mention sanctification - or am I missing something? Just curious...

Now this is Apocryphal stuff. :lol


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[Andrew]

Let no man fool you. I respectively agree with all of your beliefs, I also agree with every denomination. It makes no difference to me, my Grandma passed away and she was a saint, went to her Catholic funeral and prayed the rosary and it absolutely felt right seeing that she prayed the rosary on a daily basis it made me feel closer to her and to God and understanding his mercy.
I wouldnt mind attending Catholic church or even becoming a good steward somewhere in the church. I will walk into any denomination and accept them all because like I said, whether you realize it or not we all have the same mind in faith. I think your pride can get the best of you, leave Christians alone they are your brethren, the accuser of the brethren is a Satan FACT!
God predestined our church which is made up of people! A warning came to the infant church that they would be persecuted and would be infiltrated by ungodly men, so it was but look now! The church flourished and sprouted and continues to grow but it all comes from the same root. That we believe!
Justification is not an issue at all, no debate is necessary! We will do good works FACT and what about it? Why take something as sacred as Gods gift of grace and make it a cut throat topic? This thread is a bottomless pit. Martin Luther was a Catholic, protestants and Catholics persecuted eachother but things have changed because we have the word for ourselves that encourage Forgiveness, Grace, Love and Charity and I mind you all that DEBATE over Gods WORD among his CHOSEN IS FORBIDDEN! Do not be an accuser! I charge one in specific for telling their brother to "DIE IN YOUR SINS"!!!
Those are not truthful words to say, they are hateful words toward a brother, its murder and its a sin.
Thanks to the team for the non debate forum! God surely smiles at that!
But woe to this thread, it is becoming a den of lions ready to devour whomever proclaims "I am Justified by..... "
WE are not justified by another mans "truth"! Believe what the Spirit says to you in the WORD and leave these brute beast, they have their reward in ego fueled debate .

Perhaps this thread should have its own forum "The Lions Den"