Justification - Part 2

[MoreCoffee]

I'll simplify...
Justification = God alone

I am wondering how people manage to fit in the "God alone" model of Justification. It is not that I cannot conceive of how such may be true but I am wondering how you explain it, brother MennoSota?

 

[Arsenios]

Ya both should read the Bible and drop your denominational dogma, then you won't be confused. The EO has you all messed up.

Does this mean you are no longer obsessing over your "butts"??

Overcoming obsession is a good thing...

Besides, that obsession of yours is not a good thing to discuss on a theology discussion board...

Obsessing over another's obsession is a good obsession to overcome, I say!

So I need a few more minutes of repentance here!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Justification = God alone

It is good that we agree on this...

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He did Foreknow,
He also did Foreordain...
Moreover whom He did Foreordain,
them He also Called:
and whom He Called,
them He also Justified:
and whom He Justified,
them He also Glorified

So that there are 5 very sequential stages in how God saves man on earth:

1: God Foreknowing man
2: God Foreordaining man
3: God Calling man
4: God Justifying man
5: God Glorifying man

God DOES all these things...
Man does NONE of these things...

So what does man have to DO, since God does all 5?

And the answer is found in #3, God CALLING man...
What does the Call of God to Man call man to DO?

By your false theory, God calls man to do nothing but sit around waiting for his Justification by God...

The Witness of the Body of Christ for the entire 2000 year history of the Church...
Accurately understands this Holy Calling to be unto our Repenting...
And then based on our repenting, God Justifies us...
And then based on our continued repenting, God Glorifies us...
Then we pass from this earth!
Martyrdom, for instance, is Glorification of man by God...
So too are the higher Gifts...

And it is ALL God's doing...
Through our obedience to God (replacing Adam's disobedience...)
OUR part in the New Covenant of the Body and Blood of our Lord...
IS our obedience to Christ...
Christ's part is the Call of God to us, His Justification/Sanctification of us, and our Glorification by Him...

I suspect the problem with many Protestant believers is that they misunderstand the Calling of God to be Justification BY God... They think that their first deep encounter with the Holy Spirit IS Salvation, rather than the profoundly Holy Calling of God UNTO Salvation... And for this reason, they think that Baptism is Spiritual apart from the Baptism of Christ in His Body, the Ekklesia, by triple immersion in the Waters of Regeneration as Christ Himself was Baptized by John...

Well, Menno, at least we agree that Justification is by God alone...
We disagree on what standards He uses for us to BE Justified BY God...
And you have not yet even mentioned Glorification by God...
Nor have you mentioned the Calling of God...
Yet Justification is sequenced between these two...

You think there are no standards whatsoever...

I think the standard is our repenting from sin and turning to Him after being Called by Him...

Be at Peace, my Brother...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I am wondering how people manage to fit in the "God alone" model of Justification. It is not that I cannot conceive of how such may be true but I am wondering how you explain it, brother MennoSota?

Did you just ask MennoSota how it is that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" Model of Justification that he promotes here?

I admire your optimism!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Does this mean you are no longer obsessing over your "butts"??

Overcoming obsession is a good thing...

Besides, that obsession of yours is not a good thing to discuss on a theology discussion board...

Obsessing over another's obsession is a good obsession to overcome, I say!

So I need a few more minutes of repentance here!

Arsenios

It means you still nullify God's grace.

 

[MennoSota]

I am wondering how people manage to fit in the "God alone" model of Justification. It is not that I cannot conceive of how such may be true but I am wondering how you explain it, brother MennoSota?

It is good that we agree on this...

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He did Foreknow,
He also did Foreordain...
Moreover whom He did Foreordain,
them He also Called:
and whom He Called,
them He also Justified:
and whom He Justified,
them He also Glorified

So that there are 5 very sequential stages in how God saves man on earth:

1: God Foreknowing man
2: God Foreordaining man
3: God Calling man
4: God Justifying man
5: God Glorifying man

God DOES all these things...
Man does NONE of these things...

So what does man have to DO, since God does all 5?

And the answer is found in #3, God CALLING man...
What does the Call of God to Man call man to DO?

By your false theory, God calls man to do nothing but sit around waiting for his Justification by God...

The Witness of the Body of Christ for the entire 2000 year history of the Church...
Accurately understands this Holy Calling to be unto our Repenting...
And then based on our repenting, God Justifies us...
And then based on our continued repenting, God Glorifies us...
Then we pass from this earth!
Martyrdom, for instance, is Glorification of man by God...
So too are the higher Gifts...

And it is ALL God's doing...
Through our obedience to God (replacing Adam's disobedience...)
OUR part in the New Covenant of the Body and Blood of our Lord...
IS our obedience to Christ...
Christ's part is the Call of God to us, His Justification/Sanctification of us, and our Glorification by Him...

I suspect the problem with many Protestant believers is that they misunderstand the Calling of God to be Justification BY God... They think that their first deep encounter with the Holy Spirit IS Salvation, rather than the profoundly Holy Calling of God UNTO Salvation... And for this reason, they think that Baptism is Spiritual apart from the Baptism of Christ in His Body, the Ekklesia, by triple immersion in the Waters of Regeneration as Christ Himself was Baptized by John...

Well, Menno, at least we agree that Justification is by God alone...
We disagree on what standards He uses for us to BE Justified BY God...
And you have not yet even mentioned Glorification by God...
Nor have you mentioned the Calling of God...
Yet Justification is sequenced between these two...

You think there are no standards whatsoever...

I think the standard is our repenting from sin and turning to Him after being Called by Him...

Be at Peace, my Brother...

Arsenios

Did you just ask MennoSota how it is that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" Model of Justification that he promotes here?

I admire your optimism!

Arsenios

One question: Who justifies us, God or ourselves?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

One question: Who justifies us, God or ourselves?

I wonder why it is that you won't engage in sincere discussion. You've been asked some rather involved questions to flesh out your answer a bit, but you answer with a question that does not address any of the posts you've quoted. So I will ask as well -

How is it that that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" model of Justification that you promote here? I've never fancied being an un-involved robot or puppet on a string just waiting to be plucked up and danced about - but this view of God's Justification clearly doesn't work and will never work; UNLESS you can explain HOW it works

 

[MennoSota]

I wonder why it is that you won't engage in sincere discussion. You've been asked some rather involved questions to flesh out your answer a bit, but you answer with a question that does not address any of the posts you've quoted. So I will ask as well -

How is it that that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" model of Justification that you promote here? I've never fancied being an un-involved robot or puppet on a string just waiting to be plucked up and danced about - but this view of God's Justification clearly doesn't work and will never work; UNLESS you can explain HOW it works

My question is simple.
God justifies. Men have no authority to justify.
Next: Does God require work from humans in order to merit their justification, which God determines? This gets at the same issue in Ephesians 2:8-9. Is there something that we can boast about regarding God's choice to justify us? No. Anything we do will fall utterly short. God will never look at us and declare that our actions are good, meaning holy. Our actions are not holy. They can never be holy. They can only be corrupt attempts. We fall short.
So, how are we justified, since our corruption is so utterly unholy?
Paul answers this in Romans 8. "Thanks be to Christ..."
God justifies us because Jesus makes us holy and righteous by being our substitute.
People who are obsessing on James 2 miss the fact that James is not addressing spiritual justification before God. James is specifically addressing whether we can justify if we have faith or not. James is dealing with an entirely different issue, not with the substitutionary justification that happens only by God and God alone. God is the only Sovereign and therefore is the only one who has the power and authority to justify someone.
Question: Are humans able to boast that their actions justified themselves before God?

 

[Andrew]

One question: Who justifies us, God or ourselves?

I know right? Gosh I hate it when the bible makes typos! .... It should be "know ye that we are Justified by God alone"
also I do agree btw

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did you just ask MennoSota how it is that actual PEOPLE somehow manage to fit in to the "God Alone" Model of Justification that he promotes here?

I admire your optimism!

Arsenios

With patience and prayer miracles can happen.

 

[TangledWeb]

My question is simple.
God justifies. Men have no authority to justify.
Next: Does God require work from humans in order to merit their justification, which God determines? This gets at the same issue in Ephesians 2:8-9. Is there something that we can boast about regarding God's choice to justify us? No. Anything we do will fall utterly short. God will never look at us and declare that our actions are good, meaning holy. Our actions are not holy. They can never be holy. They can only be corrupt attempts. We fall short.
So, how are we justified, since our corruption is so utterly unholy?
Paul answers this in Romans 8. "Thanks be to Christ..."
God justifies us because Jesus makes us holy and righteous by being our substitute.
People who are obsessing on James 2 miss the fact that James is not addressing spiritual justification before God. James is specifically addressing whether we can justify if we have faith or not. James is dealing with an entirely different issue, not with the substitutionary justification that happens only by God and God alone. God is the only Sovereign and therefore is the only one who has the power and authority to justify someone.
Question: Are humans able to boast that their actions justified themselves before God?

I agree wholeheartedly on this and with faith we could boast and it would wholly depend on us which is in itself a failure unlike the one who died for us and justifies us by faith.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Brother MennoSota wrote "Anything we do will fall utterly short. God will never look at us and declare that our actions are good, meaning holy. Our actions are not holy. They can never be holy. They can only be corrupt attempts. We fall short." Is that "never" part really what you mean? As in never ever, not here in this age nor in any age past nor in any age to come not on Earth nor in Heaven but absolutely never?

 

[MennoSota]

Brother MennoSota wrote "Anything we do will fall utterly short. God will never look at us and declare that our actions are good, meaning holy. Our actions are not holy. They can never be holy. They can only be corrupt attempts. We fall short." Is that "never" part really what you mean? As in never ever, not here in this age nor in any age past nor in any age to come not on Earth nor in Heaven but absolutely never?

Will we be corrupt in our Father's house? Will our new bodies be corrupt when God gives them to us?
MC, you are attempting to muddle what is clear, but I will attempt to clarify your ignorance...
Every action we do on this earth, in our present body, is corrupt and unholy. God does not look at our works and marvel at the dedication and goodness of our deeds. He will never be impressed with them...ever. Not now, not in the future, not ever. What we do on this earth is unholy work. We utterly fall short, regardless of the noble attempt. Only Christ is good. There is none other.
I think that's clear. Now...muddy it up in your attempt to pat yourself on the back.

 

[psalms 91]

Simple answer, we are justified by faith.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Will we be corrupt in our Father's house? Will our new bodies be corrupt when God gives them to us?
MC, you are attempting to muddle what is clear, but I will attempt to clarify your ignorance...
Every action we do on this earth, in our present body, is corrupt and unholy. God does not look at our works and marvel at the dedication and goodness of our deeds. He will never be impressed with them...ever. Not now, not in the future, not ever. What we do on this earth is unholy work. We utterly fall short, regardless of the noble attempt. Only Christ is good. There is none other.
I think that's clear. Now...muddy it up in your attempt to pat yourself on the back.

Then what good is the statement "well done, good and faithful servant"? I wonder if some of us will stare back at Christ, bewildered with what he's talking about. So does the statement reflect Justification in the sense of "faith and works"? I think it does. Works, done in/coupled with faith will be seen as such, and will garner that response.Those separate from faith are just as you say, but I don't think you make the distinction. Either that, or there is no distinction in your view

 

[Andrew]

Simple answer, we are justified by faith.

Right, works are expected in faith but FAITH ALONE JUSTIFIES!!

"Who ever has faith in me will never die but have everlasting life"

 

[MennoSota]

Then what good is the statement "well done, good and faithful servant"? I wonder if some of us will stare back at Christ, bewildered with what he's talking about. So does the statement reflect Justification in the sense of "faith and works"? I think it does. Works, done in/coupled with faith will be seen as such, and will garner that response.Those separate from faith are just as you say, but I don't think you make the distinction. Either that, or there is no distinction in your view

"Well done, good and faithful servant" has nothing to do with justification. Nothing at all. If it did, our glory would be in our self merit.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

"Well done, good and faithful servant" has nothing to do with justification. Nothing at all. If it did, our glory would be in our self merit.

From the OP (back 185 pages ago) Justification was seen as a one time and progressive process. I understand that 'Reformed' Christians may not see it that way. But I was responding to the idea that:

"Every action we do on this earth, in our present body, is corrupt and unholy. God does not look at our works and marvel at the dedication and goodness of our deeds. He will never be impressed with them...ever. Not now, not in the future, not ever. What we do on this earth is unholy work. We utterly fall short, regardless of the noble attempt".​

In that case, the statement of Christ is in opposition to what was posted.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Brother MennoSota, let me tell you a story.

The parable of the talents (Luke 19:12; Mark 4:25; 13:34)

Matthew 25:14 Imagine someone who, before going abroad, summoned his servants to entrust his property to them. 15 He gave five talents of silver to one servant, two talents to another servant, and one talent to a third, to each, according to his ability; and he went away. 16 He who received five talents went at once to do business with the talents, and gained another five. 17 The one who received two talents did the same, and gained another two.18 But the one who received one talent dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master’s money.

19 After a long time, the master of those servants returned and asked for a reckoning. 20 The one who had received five talents came with another five talents, saying, ‘Lord, you entrusted me with five talents, but see, I have gained five more.’ 21 The master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, since you have been faithful in a few things, I will entrust you in charge of many things. Come and share the joy of your master.’

22 Then the one who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you entrusted me with two talents; with them I have gained two more.’ 23 The master said, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, since you have been faithful in little things, I will entrust you in charge of many things. Come and share the joy of your master.’

24 Finally, the one who had received one talent came and said, ‘Master, I know that you are a hard man. You reap what you have not sown, and gather what you have not scattered. 25 I was afraid, so I hid your money in the ground. Here, take what is yours!’

26 But his master replied, ‘Wicked and worthless servant, you know that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered. 27 You should have deposited my money in the bank, and given it back to me with interest on my return. 28 Therefore, take the talent from him, and give it to the one who has ten. 29 For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who are unproductive, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 As for that useless servant, throw him out into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

What do you think that story is about brother MennoSota?

 

[MennoSota]

From the OP (back 185 pages ago) Justification was seen as a one time and progressive process. I understand that 'Reformed' Christians may not see it that way. But I was responding to the idea that:

"Every action we do on this earth, in our present body, is corrupt and unholy. God does not look at our works and marvel at the dedication and goodness of our deeds. He will never be impressed with them...ever. Not now, not in the future, not ever. What we do on this earth is unholy work. We utterly fall short, regardless of the noble attempt".​

In that case, the statement of Christ is in opposition to what was posted.

Not at all. The statement of Christ has nothing to do with justification, nor is it referring to good works.
When we stand before God, are we in our corrupted body or our perfect body? God makes us good. We are not good in and of ourselves. God gives us faith. We are not faithful in and of ourselves.
It's all God.