Justification - Part 2

[MennoSota]

Brother MennoSota, let me tell you a story.

The parable of the talents (Luke 19:12; Mark 4:25; 13:34)

Matthew 25:14 Imagine someone who, before going abroad, summoned his servants to entrust his property to them. 15 He gave five talents of silver to one servant, two talents to another servant, and one talent to a third, to each, according to his ability; and he went away. 16 He who received five talents went at once to do business with the talents, and gained another five. 17 The one who received two talents did the same, and gained another two.18 But the one who received one talent dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master’s money.

19 After a long time, the master of those servants returned and asked for a reckoning. 20 The one who had received five talents came with another five talents, saying, ‘Lord, you entrusted me with five talents, but see, I have gained five more.’ 21 The master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, since you have been faithful in a few things, I will entrust you in charge of many things. Come and share the joy of your master.’

22 Then the one who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you entrusted me with two talents; with them I have gained two more.’ 23 The master said, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, since you have been faithful in little things, I will entrust you in charge of many things. Come and share the joy of your master.’

24 Finally, the one who had received one talent came and said, ‘Master, I know that you are a hard man. You reap what you have not sown, and gather what you have not scattered. 25 I was afraid, so I hid your money in the ground. Here, take what is yours!’

26 But his master replied, ‘Wicked and worthless servant, you know that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered. 27 You should have deposited my money in the bank, and given it back to me with interest on my return. 28 Therefore, take the talent from him, and give it to the one who has ten. 29 For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who are unproductive, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 As for that useless servant, throw him out into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

What do you think that story is about brother MennoSota?

It's not about justification, this is for certain. Second, it not referring to standing before God in heaven. The master is known for taking from others (does that sound like God). Does God cast his children into outer darkness?
MC, you cannot create a doctrine of salvation and justification from this parable. Yet, here you are trying to prooftext to fit your works based, merit based teachings.

 

[Arsenios]

One question: Who justifies us, God or ourselves?

Read what you just posted...

Justification is God's Gift to those repenting...

You think God Justifies the unrepentant...


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Read what you just posted...

Justification is God's Gift to those repenting...

You think God Justifies the unrepentant...


Arsenios

Yep, if we never repent we are not justified, I dont know of any Christian church that believes you are saved even if you dont repent.

 

[Arsenios]

Yep, if we never repent we are not justified, I dont know of any Christian church that believes you are saved even if you dont repent.

Indeed it is the Holy Calling of God to us sinners that is UNTO repenting...

And this repenting is unto Justification...

And this Justification is unto Glorification...

Romans 8:30 clearly spells it out...

Some just do not believe the Bible...

Romans

 

[Arsenios]

I wonder why it is that you won't engage in sincere discussion.

I sometimes think he is a devotee of sneer-theology...

He sneers regularly...

He seldom teaches...

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Indeed it is the Holy Calling of God to us sinners that is UNTO repenting...

And this repenting is unto Justification...

And this Justification is unto Glorification...

Romans 8:30 clearly spells it out...

Some just do not believe the Bible...

Romans

Here is my impersonation of Mennos response

"You are debasing scripture by adding your own heretical interpretations by proclaiming that God himself is merely on the back burner waiting to Justify when he has clearly predestined Justification for his chosen elect. We are Justified because God CHOOSES to Justify us and not by our works lest any man boast O' wretched man."

 

[George]

Ya both should read the Bible and drop your denominational dogma, then you won't be confused. The EO has you all messed up.

And tell me what denominational dogma I’ve put forward? I’m very interested to see if that’s a factual claim or just a foot in the mouth moment.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

And tell me what denominational dogma I’ve put forward? I’m very interested to see if that’s a factual claim or just a foot in the mouth moment.

Well, it's that Eastern Orthodox cross that elicits such a violent reaction in him, I think. You're tied to historical, Orthodox Christianity, therefore not to be trusted.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's not about justification, this is for certain. Second, it not referring to standing before God in heaven. The master is known for taking from others (does that sound like God). Does God cast his children into outer darkness?
MC, you cannot create a doctrine of salvation and justification from this parable. Yet, here you are trying to prooftext to fit your works based, merit based teachings.

Brother MennoSota, you've said what you think the story isn't about but I am wondering what you think it is about.

The parable of the talents (Luke 19:12; Mark 4:25; 13:34)

Matthew 25:14 Imagine someone who, before going abroad, summoned his servants to entrust his property to them. 15 He gave five talents of silver to one servant, two talents to another servant, and one talent to a third, to each, according to his ability; and he went away. 16 He who received five talents went at once to do business with the talents, and gained another five. 17 The one who received two talents did the same, and gained another two.18 But the one who received one talent dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master’s money.

19 After a long time, the master of those servants returned and asked for a reckoning. 20 The one who had received five talents came with another five talents, saying, ‘Lord, you entrusted me with five talents, but see, I have gained five more.’ 21 The master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, since you have been faithful in a few things, I will entrust you in charge of many things. Come and share the joy of your master.’

22 Then the one who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you entrusted me with two talents; with them I have gained two more.’ 23 The master said, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, since you have been faithful in little things, I will entrust you in charge of many things. Come and share the joy of your master.’

24 Finally, the one who had received one talent came and said, ‘Master, I know that you are a hard man. You reap what you have not sown, and gather what you have not scattered. 25 I was afraid, so I hid your money in the ground. Here, take what is yours!’

26 But his master replied, ‘Wicked and worthless servant, you know that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered. 27 You should have deposited my money in the bank, and given it back to me with interest on my return. 28 Therefore, take the talent from him, and give it to the one who has ten. 29 For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who are unproductive, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 As for that useless servant, throw him out into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

What is the story about brother MennoSota?

 

[MennoSota]

Read what you just posted...

Justification is God's Gift to those repenting...

You think God Justifies the unrepentant...


Arsenios

No, you made that up. Nowhere do you find that "Justification is God's gift to those repenting." In fact, anyone who reads what you wrote should recognize that you just removed grace and replaced it with works.

 

[MennoSota]

And tell me what denominational dogma I’ve put forward? I’m very interested to see if that’s a factual claim or just a foot in the mouth moment.

Tell me what God's word says. I'm very interested to see you put your EO dogma away.

 

[MennoSota]

Brother MennoSota, you've said what you think the story isn't about but I am wondering what you think it is about.

The parable of the talents (Luke 19:12; Mark 4:25; 13:34)

Matthew 25:14 Imagine someone who, before going abroad, summoned his servants to entrust his property to them. 15 He gave five talents of silver to one servant, two talents to another servant, and one talent to a third, to each, according to his ability; and he went away. 16 He who received five talents went at once to do business with the talents, and gained another five. 17 The one who received two talents did the same, and gained another two.18 But the one who received one talent dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master’s money.

19 After a long time, the master of those servants returned and asked for a reckoning. 20 The one who had received five talents came with another five talents, saying, ‘Lord, you entrusted me with five talents, but see, I have gained five more.’ 21 The master answered, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, since you have been faithful in a few things, I will entrust you in charge of many things. Come and share the joy of your master.’

22 Then the one who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you entrusted me with two talents; with them I have gained two more.’ 23 The master said, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant, since you have been faithful in little things, I will entrust you in charge of many things. Come and share the joy of your master.’

24 Finally, the one who had received one talent came and said, ‘Master, I know that you are a hard man. You reap what you have not sown, and gather what you have not scattered. 25 I was afraid, so I hid your money in the ground. Here, take what is yours!’

26 But his master replied, ‘Wicked and worthless servant, you know that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered. 27 You should have deposited my money in the bank, and given it back to me with interest on my return. 28 Therefore, take the talent from him, and give it to the one who has ten. 29 For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who are unproductive, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 As for that useless servant, throw him out into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’​

What is the story about brother MennoSota?

It is a parable about a master who leaves and comes back with the expectation that he'll have more money when he returns. He's happy with two servants who doubled his money. He's upset with the one who buried the money out of fear. The interpretation is up for grabs. What I know is that nowhere does Jesus tell his apostles that they could burn up if they don't do good. Nowhere does he say that the parable is teaching about justification and entrance into heaven.
What I find interesting is that you hone in on prooftexts that are not theology and then try to force theology into them. Why?

 

[George]

Tell me what God's word says. I'm very interested to see you put your EO dogma away.

Red herring. I'll be downright honest, you have a knack for thinking you're high and mighty, either tell me what dogma I've put forward or don't reference me.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is a parable about a master who leaves and comes back with the expectation that he'll have more money when he returns. He's happy with two servants who doubled his money. He's upset with the one who buried the money out of fear. The interpretation is up for grabs. What I know is that nowhere does Jesus tell his apostles that they could burn up if they don't do good. Nowhere does he say that the parable is teaching about justification and entrance into heaven.
What I find interesting is that you hone in on prooftexts that are not theology and then try to force theology into them. Why?

Brother MennoSota, did you check the other passages I cited? It is worth while checking them too. Luke 19:12; Mark 4:25; 13:34

Luke 19:11 Jesus was now near Jerusalem, and the people with him thought that God’s reign was about to appear. So as they were listening to him, Jesus went on to tell them a parable. 12 He said, “A man of noble birth went to a distant country in order to be crowned king, after which he planned to return home. 13 Before he left, he summoned ten of his servants and gave them ten pounds of silver. He said, ‘Put this money to work until I get back.’ 14 But his compatriots, who disliked him, sent a delegation after him with this message, ‘We do not want this man to be our king.’

15 He returned, however, appointed as king. At once he sent for the servants, to whom he had given the money, to find out what profit each had made. 16 The first came in, and reported, ‘Sir, your pound of silver has earned ten more pounds of silver.’

17 The master replied, ‘Well done, my good servant! Since you have proved yourself faithful in a small matter, I can trust you to take charge of ten cities.’ 18 The second reported, ‘Sir, your pound of silver earned five more pounds of silver.’ 19 The master replied, ‘And you, take charge of five cities!’

20 The third came in, , and said, ‘Sir, here is your money, which I hid for safekeeping. 21 I was afraid of you, for you are an exacting person: you take up what you did not lay down, and you reap what you did not sow.’

22 The master replied, ‘You worthless servant, I will judge you by your own words! So you knew I was an exacting person, taking up what I did not lay down, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why, then, did you not put my money on loan, so that, when I got back, I could have collected it with interest?’

24 Then the master said to those standing by, ‘Take from him that pound, and give it to the one with ten pounds.’ 25 But they objected, ‘Sir, he already has ten pounds!’

26 The master replied, ‘I tell you, everyone who has will be given more; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 As for my enemies who did not want me to be their king, bring them in, and execute them right here in front me!’”​

What do you think that story is about, brother MennoSota?

 

[MennoSota]

Red herring. I'll be downright honest, you have a knack for thinking you're high and mighty, either tell me what dogma I've put forward or don't reference me.

We can go at this all day, but I have seen your saint worship thread so it's obvious that you live by the code of the EO. I also notice that you rarely provide scripture.
Now, what are we talking about? Justification? How about you share something.

 

[MennoSota]

Brother MennoSota, did you check the other passages I cited? It is worth while checking them too. Luke 19:12; Mark 4:25; 13:34

Luke 19:11 Jesus was now near Jerusalem, and the people with him thought that God’s reign was about to appear. So as they were listening to him, Jesus went on to tell them a parable. 12 He said, “A man of noble birth went to a distant country in order to be crowned king, after which he planned to return home. 13 Before he left, he summoned ten of his servants and gave them ten pounds of silver. He said, ‘Put this money to work until I get back.’ 14 But his compatriots, who disliked him, sent a delegation after him with this message, ‘We do not want this man to be our king.’

15 He returned, however, appointed as king. At once he sent for the servants, to whom he had given the money, to find out what profit each had made. 16 The first came in, and reported, ‘Sir, your pound of silver has earned ten more pounds of silver.’

17 The master replied, ‘Well done, my good servant! Since you have proved yourself faithful in a small matter, I can trust you to take charge of ten cities.’ 18 The second reported, ‘Sir, your pound of silver earned five more pounds of silver.’ 19 The master replied, ‘And you, take charge of five cities!’

20 The third came in, , and said, ‘Sir, here is your money, which I hid for safekeeping. 21 I was afraid of you, for you are an exacting person: you take up what you did not lay down, and you reap what you did not sow.’

22 The master replied, ‘You worthless servant, I will judge you by your own words! So you knew I was an exacting person, taking up what I did not lay down, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why, then, did you not put my money on loan, so that, when I got back, I could have collected it with interest?’

24 Then the master said to those standing by, ‘Take from him that pound, and give it to the one with ten pounds.’ 25 But they objected, ‘Sir, he already has ten pounds!’

26 The master replied, ‘I tell you, everyone who has will be given more; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 As for my enemies who did not want me to be their king, bring them in, and execute them right here in front me!’”​

What do you think that story is about, brother MennoSota?

These are parables, not theology.
One writer claimed that God gives everyone something, but only the elect produce the fruit of the Spirit, while the others die in their sins. Do you agree with that? I don't create theology from parables because they are not meant to be used that way. Apparently you are using them to build a dogma. What dogma have you built from these verses, MC?

 

[psalms 91]

These are parables, not theology.
One writer claimed that God gives everyone something, but only the elect produce the fruit of the Spirit, while the others die in their sins. Do you agree with that? I don't create theology from parables because they are not meant to be used that way. Apparently you are using them to build a dogma. What dogma have you built from these verses, MC?

Yes, they are parables but they contain a spiritual meaning as well as the physical and we should not ignore anything Jesus said for remember that He told His disciples that they were to hide the spiritual meaning to those who heard but for them it was meant that they understand. As disciples we should seek to understand as well.

 

[George]

We can go at this all day, but I have seen your saint worship thread so it's obvious that you live by the code of the EO. I also notice that you rarely provide scripture.
Now, what are we talking about? Justification? How about you share something.

There you go again, as usual insulting stuff that isn’t true. You also can’t seem to answer my question. Last time I checked I never stated that I worship the Saints, but I’m not surprised coming from you. Your style of passive aggressive then feigning innocence is exactly what causes people to get fed up. I’m done arguing with you since you can’t answer my post and then try to deflect it on me to make me look bad.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Brother MennoSota, did you read the passages from the Gospel according to saint Mark that I mentioned before?

Mark 4:21 Jesus also said to them, “When the light comes, is it put under a basket or a bed? Surely it is put on a lamp stand. 22 Whatever is hidden will be disclosed, and whatever is kept secret will be brought to light. 23 Listen then, if you have ears!” 24 And he also said to them, “Pay attention to what you hear. In the measure you give, so shall you receive, and still more will be given to you. 25 For to the one who produces something, more will be given; and from him who does not produce anything, even what he has will be taken away from him.”​

Brother MennoSota, what do you think that story mean?

And this passage in the Gospel according to saint Mark, brother MennoSota, did you read it?

Mark 13:24 Later on in those days, after that disastrous time, the sun will grow dark, the moon will not give its light, 25 the stars will fall out of the sky, and the whole universe will be shaken. 26 Then people will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send the angels to gather his chosen people from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the sky. 28 Learn a lesson from the fig tree: as soon as its branches become tender and it begins to sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 In the same way, when you see these things happening, know that the time is near, even at the door. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all this has happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

32 But, regarding that day and that hour, no one knows when it will come, not even the angels, not even the Son, but only the Father 33 Be alert and watch, for you don’t know when the time will come. 34 When a man goes abroad and leaves his home, he puts his servants in charge, giving to each one some responsibility; and he orders the doorkeeper to stay awake. 35 So stay awake, for you don’t know when the Lord of the house will come, in the evening or at midnight, when the rooster crows or before dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him catch you asleep. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Stay awake!”​

Brother MennoSota, what do you think that passage means?

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, they are parables but they contain a spiritual meaning as well as the physical and we should not ignore anything Jesus said for remember that He told His disciples that they were to hide the spiritual meaning to those who heard but for them it was meant that they understand. As disciples we should seek to understand as well.

Indeed, there is application for us in daily living that should not be ignored. We cannot, however, build a doctrine of justification around a parable. Jesus was not providing objective data in the parables. He was providing subjective opportunities to ponder how we live our lives on earth.