Justification

[MennoSota]

Considering that syncretism and "works salvation" are quite different, this isn't clearing the air.

I suspect you are looking for muddy waters.

 

[Arsenios]

Welcome to the Protestant position.

I look foreward to the day when I can welcome you Home to the Orthodox Faith...

I invite you to read post 671.

Technical formulaics are not what I do...

You can talk to me...

So, which is it? Is Justification a gift as you claim, or is it something self "siezes" and earns and accomplishes as you say here?

Yes... It is not either-or, but both-and, and is a Mystery...
We sieze by repentance what God Gives to us by His Grace
BECAUSE
God is GIVING us the Grace to sieze it by repentance...

Mat_11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent take it by force.

OR do you agree with Lutherans that there are two inseparable, critical aspects here - that are not identical.
We are GIVEN life by the Holy Spirit, we are GIVEN justification by Christ via the Incarnation - Cross - Resurrection, and (now alive in Him, married to the Lamb, empowered and directed by the Spirit) we grow and mature, leaving behind evil, denying self, taking up our Cross and following Christ - all to be rewarded in heaven?

No, that is much too garbled...

Repenting is our beginning of Salvation...
We receive Life from Christ baptizing us into Himself...
In this we become members of the Body of Christ...
We PROVE Christ in our own flesh as members of His Body...
Perfecting Christ in our own bodies...
All by living lives of repentance...
And when perfected, then Glorified by God...
On this earth, in our own flesh...

And one final warning: "Beware of Orthodox women!!"

They are notariously persuasive!

Some of them are even given the Greek name: Notaras!



Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So many Christians imagine they are co-rulers with God
and they get to negotiate in committee with God over the destination of their lives.

Well, there IS Lot's negotiations with God...
And wrestling with God...

And then the Bible...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Well, there IS Lot's negotiations with God...
And wrestling with God...

And then the Bible...

Arsenios

None of which had anything to do with Justification or Salvation. Your use of the Bible is appalling at times, Arsenios.

 

[Albion]

I look foreward to the day when I can welcome you Home to the Orthodox Faith...

Sorry, but the Roman Catholics started using that slogan first, and it's just so awkward for those of us who are reformed Christians to have to decide which of the unreformed churches insisting that they are the 'one and only true church' we should let welcome us home. Maybe it would be a good idea for the two of you to get together and welcome each other before you turn to us. (?)

 

[Arsenios]

Sorry, but the Roman Catholics started using that slogan first, and it's just so awkward for those of us who are reformed Christians to have to decide which of the unreformed churches insisting that they are the 'one and only true church' we should let welcome us home. Maybe it would be a good idea for the two of you to get together and welcome each other before you turn to us. (?)

Forgive me, I thought I was speaking to Josiah, and not to "us"...
Should have been a PM...
I forgot momentarily that you might even be reading that post...

The expression, "Welcome Home", extended by Orthodox Christians to those who have just been baptized into Christ, however, is thoroughly Orthodox, and I would hope that the Latins would still be using it as well...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

None of which had anything to do with Justification or Salvation.

Well, you were complaining that a lot of

Christians imagine they are co-rulers with God
and they get to negotiate in committee with God

So I brought up Lot, who negotiated verbally in committee with God, and that other guy, I can't think of his name right now, who negotiated ontologically with God, wrestling with God...

Your use of the Bible is appalling at times, Arsenios.

My Brother, you can absolutely trust me...
When I say these words for your own ears...
Amen Amen... I have done WAY worse...

Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Jacob? Was it Jacob? Do I win???!!!

 

[Lamb]

So what's the percentage that comes from you (for those who believe in their doing something for their justification) and how much of it comes from Christ?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So what's the percentage that comes from you (for those who believe in their doing something for their justification) and how much of it comes from Christ?

Q: So what's the percentage that comes from you (for those who believe in their doing something for their justification) and how much of it comes from Christ?
A: A man is made righteous by works and not by faith alone and you are saved by grace through faith so that you can do the good works that God prepared in advance to be your way of life. Hence grace saves, faith and good works justify, and the gospel starts with God's call to repent and believe. It looks like 100% and 100%.

 

[atpollard]

Is being called by God to repentance the same thing as being elect? God calls all men everywhere to repent. Saint Paul told that to the Greek philosophers in Athens (Acts 17:30). And saint Paul wrote to saint Timothy that God wants all men to be saved (1Timothy 2:4). Perhaps many are called even if few are chosen, eh?

Here is how the ‘many’ respond to the call:

John 6:41-42
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

John 6:66
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

And Jesus brushes them off ...

John 6:43-44
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

It is the ‘few chosen’ who are ‘the elect’, and they respond as follows:

John 6:67-69
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

 

[Andrew]

The former sounds morbid, a man can go on a killing spree and get thrown in jail find God and therefore he is justified because he was chosen by God, meanwhile his victims were gunned down before finding God and I guess they go to hell and the killer goes to heaven because God chose him over them...?
God favors no man.


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Oh my, I wrote this the night before the Santa Fe tragedy an hours drive from where I live...

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[Albion]

Well, it still is a reasonable question that many other people have asked at one time or another.

 

[Albion]

Forgive me, I thought I was speaking to Josiah, and not to "us"...
Arsenios

Nope. You were speaking to Josiah and the rest of us.

That's why we call it a "discussion" board.

 

[MennoSota]

Q: So what's the percentage that comes from you (for those who believe in their doing something for their justification) and how much of it comes from Christ?
A: A man is made righteous by works and not by faith alone and you are saved by grace through faith so that you can do the good works that God prepared in advance to be your way of life. Hence grace saves, faith and good works justify, and the gospel starts with God's call to repent and believe. It looks like 100% and 100%.

You didn't answer the question. What is the percentage (ratio) of good works to bad works needed to be justified?

 

[MoreCoffee]

You didn't answer the question. What is the percentage (ratio) of good works to bad works needed to be justified?

You misquoted the question.

 

[MennoSota]

You misquoted the question.

You failed to answer the question, but instead tried to muddy it up.

 

[Andrew]

You didn't answer the question. What is the percentage (ratio) of good works to bad works needed to be justified?

We do works whether good or bad, not all works are good and not all are bad... point being no goods works means dead faith.
I don't agree that man should boast that his deeds are good or not, it's not for us to judge our own works.
Matt 6:3
"But when you give to someone in need, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing"
God will judge accordingly to each man his deeds, belief in Christ breaks the chains of bondage and puts on a light yoke so it's nothing to worry about, sins are forgiven and you are chosen of God... If we are to be 'Christ like' well that's between you and you're knowledge in studying his word, Jesus is our example and all the information you need is in the good book.


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[MoreCoffee]

You failed to answer the question, but instead tried to muddy it up.

The answer was 100% and 100%.

 

[MennoSota]

The answer was 100% and 100%.

Impossible. Care to try again.