Justification

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Arsenios

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God justifies us because he chooses to. What you and I do has no effect on God's choice of justifying us.

Does Josiah agree with you?

Does God justify unrepentant sinners so then they can repent?

OR...

Do sinners repent in order that God should justify them?

We hold the latter, and you and Josiah seem to hold the former...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Why do you imagine yourself to be good?

Because in Adam we are both Good and evil...

Of which Tree did Adam partake?

Genesis 2:17 should provide the needed clue...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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May you all have a blessed and Joy-filled Feast Day
of the Holy Ascension of our Lord, God and Savior
Jesus Christ...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios said:
The early Church gave you the Scripture telling us that it is God Who Justifies...

Well.... I believe God did.

Do you confess to BELIEVE IN one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church...

Is the Body of Christ Whose Head IS Christ something other than Christ?

The Ekklesia IS the Body of Christ...

And Christ IS the Head of His Body...

Ask anyone! :) You can ask Josiah himself!

Welcome to Orthodox Christianity!

Granted, I did slightly misquote a friend of mine with that!

Christ did leave His carnal Body on earth...

His Resurrected Body is now ascended this very Day...

Of which His Body on earth partkes...


Arsenios
 

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Arsenios

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Arsenios said:
Repentance is our part...

Who is "our?"

"Our" is you and me and all the rest of fallen mankind...

IF
We hold up our end of the New Covenant of the Body and Blood of our Lord,
THEN...
God will most assuredly hold up His End of the Covenant...

After Christ's Resurrection He preached the Kingdom of Heaven for 40 days...

Does that fact have anything to do with your theory of Justification?

I mean, in plain practical terms, what IS Justification in your view?


Arsenios
 

Andrew

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Does Josiah agree with you?

Does God justify unrepentant sinners so then they can repent?

OR...

Do sinners repent in order that God should justify them?

We hold the latter, and you and Josiah seem to hold the former...

Arsenios
The former sounds morbid, a man can go on a killing spree and get thrown in jail find God and therefore he is justified because he was chosen by God, meanwhile his victims were gunned down before finding God and I guess they go to hell and the killer goes to heaven because God chose him over them...?
God favors no man.


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Arsenios

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Arsenios said:
Do sinners repent in order that God should justify them?

How does Jesus fit into that?

Pithily, Jesus is God...

More specifically, Jesus IS the Kingdom of Heaven, the Father of us all... We are entered into Him at Baptism, and live in obedience to Him Who IS our Master and King... And the first obedience is to always and ever keep on repenting from sin and turning unto God... Justification comes with Baptism in the purity of heart that Baptism affords those Baptized into Christ in the Apostolic Ekklesia of God...

The day of one's Baptism into Christ in the Orthodox Faith is the most important day in one's life, for it makes possible all the rest of one's newly created Life in Christ... Therein one becomes a New Creation in Christ...

Justification is the second phase of Salvation on earth, and I have yet to hear Josiah speak about that at all...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Does Josiah agree with you?

Does God justify unrepentant sinners so then they can repent?

OR...

Do sinners repent in order that God should justify them?

We hold the latter, and you and Josiah seem to hold the former...

Arsenios

God holds the former so we got that going for us...which is nice...
 

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Pithily, Jesus is God...

More specifically, Jesus IS the Kingdom of Heaven, the Father of us all... We are entered into Him at Baptism, and live in obedience to Him Who IS our Master and King... And the first obedience is to always and ever keep on repenting from sin and turning unto God... Justification comes with Baptism in the purity of heart that Baptism affords those Baptized into Christ in the Apostolic Ekklesia of God...

The day of one's Baptism into Christ in the Orthodox Faith is the most important day in one's life, for it makes possible all the rest of one's newly created Life in Christ... Therein one becomes a New Creation in Christ...

Justification is the second phase of Salvation on earth, and I have yet to hear Josiah speak about that at all...

Arsenios

Perhaps you could answer this question I asked here? http://christianityhaven.com/showth...s-death-on-the-cross-actually-achieve-for-you

What did Jesus' death on the cross actually achieve for you then if your justification doesn't come from His death on the cross? I'm not wanting a response in this thread since it should go in the one I linked. Thanks.
 

MennoSota

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"Our" is you and me and all the rest of fallen mankind...

IF
We hold up our end of the New Covenant of the Body and Blood of our Lord,
THEN...
God will most assuredly hold up His End of the Covenant...

Arsenios

How is it that you can preach salvation by works? Such a message is no gospel at all.
 

atpollard

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Is there anything I can DO to become one of the elect?

Arsenios

John 6:43-45
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Why do you care?
I do not mean that as a flippant question. Everyone who HEARS and learns from the Father will be drawn to the Son, but those who do not hear and learn just stand and grumble, unable to accept or believe the words preached to them (John 6).

We are later told that there is a simple explanation. The natural man views things of the Spirit as foolishness. Only those with spiritual “ears to hear” can understand things of the Spirit. (1 Corinthians 2)

So if you were one of the non-elect. Someone not foreknown by God. Someone not called. Someone not justified. Someone not glorified. You would view things of the Spirit as foolishness and you would have no concern at all whether you were one of God’s elect or not. The fact that someone cares, indicates that they have ears to hear and are foreknown and called and justified by the blood of Christ and destined to be glorified.

Remember that John 6:44 begins with the warning “no one can come to me unless” and ends with the promise “I will raise him up on the last day.”
The Father foreknew (foreloved) and the Church called and Jesus justified on the cross and the Holy Spirit is a deposit that guarantees the inheritance of glorification ... to the eternal glory of the triune GOD.
 

MoreCoffee

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John 6:43-45
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Why do you care?
I do not mean that as a flippant question. Everyone who HEARS and learns from the Father will be drawn to the Son, but those who do not hear and learn just stand and grumble, unable to accept or believe the words preached to them (John 6).

We are later told that there is a simple explanation. The natural man views things of the Spirit as foolishness. Only those with spiritual “ears to hear” can understand things of the Spirit. (1 Corinthians 2)

So if you were one of the non-elect. Someone not foreknown by God. Someone not called. Someone not justified. Someone not glorified. You would view things of the Spirit as foolishness and you would have no concern at all whether you were one of God’s elect or not. The fact that someone cares, indicates that they have ears to hear and are foreknown and called and justified by the blood of Christ and destined to be glorified.

Remember that John 6:44 begins with the warning “no one can come to me unless” and ends with the promise “I will raise him up on the last day.”
The Father foreknew (foreloved) and the Church called and Jesus justified on the cross and the Holy Spirit is a deposit that guarantees the inheritance of glorification ... to the eternal glory of the triune GOD.

Is being called by God to repentance the same thing as being elect? God calls all men everywhere to repent. Saint Paul told that to the Greek philosophers in Athens (Acts 17:30). And saint Paul wrote to saint Timothy that God wants all men to be saved (1Timothy 2:4). Perhaps many are called even if few are chosen, eh?
 

Andrew

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How is it that you can preach salvation by works? Such a message is no gospel at all.
I remember when I was a child seated with my family at our local Catholic church... I asked my mom a question (can't remember) and she answered "Jesus died for your sins so that you can enter Heaven" this made perfect sense then and still makes sense today.
I believe you are misunderstood Menno, but I don't know how to defend that.
When I confessed that I was an atheist that at one time burned the bible and eventually fell on my knees and cried out to God you responded by telling me how "God was always there with you from the beginning" and I remembered something that I forgot.
God was always and is always first, indeed he justified me, I believe you just feel we should feel a higher connection or a reconnection to the close bond we ultimately have with our God.
He knows us better than we know ourselves, I dont remember the scripture but I have often heard that he knows every hair on our head... wow.
God loves and cherishes his children!
My peeve is debate, I cant stand it but I always get myself involved because it's a discussion about God which is rare where I live, I hope everyone here accepts that.


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MennoSota

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Is being called by God to repentance the same thing as being elect? God calls all men everywhere to repent. Saint Paul told that to the Greek philosophers in Athens (Acts 17:30). And saint Paul wrote to saint Timothy that God wants all men to be saved (1Timothy 2:4). Perhaps many are called even if few are chosen, eh?

Many people hear the call from Christians (ambassadors) all around the world. Only those who have been made alive can hear the Spirit call them from death unto life.
Your passage in Timothy is when Paul urges Timothy to pray for all people, to intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. Timothy is to pray for kings and all in authority so that Christians could live in peace and quiet. Such prayer is good and pleases God.
Why? God wants everyone to be saved and understand the truth. (What it doesn't say is, God wills everyone to be saved. Want and will are two different things.) Paul says that there is one God and One mediator who can reconcile God and humanity. Who is that one? It is Jesus Christ. No one else.
You cannot reconcile yourself (nothing you do will justify yourself before God). No amount of imagined "good works" will reconcile you. Only Jesus can reconcile.
Next Paul says that Jesus gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. (Not everyone is freed, however. Why is that? Because Jesus determines who is reconciled. From our perspective, everyone has the potential to be freed, but only Jesus does the reconciling and it is obvious that not all are reconciled.
We are back to the fact that God is Sovereign and God chooses as He wills.
Paul then goes on to remind us that he is still talking to Timothy about prayer in verse 8.
MC, the passage you quote as though it seals your argument, is a passage on prayer. Are we praying for government leaders so we can live in peace? Are we lifting up holy hands in prayer, free from anger and controversy? That is Paul's point to Timothy.
So...being called is not the same as being elect.
 

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The call of God is clear, Jesus spoke it. repent and believe the gospel; because the kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe. The call goes out to all men. Repent and believe.
 

Andrew

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The call of God is clear, Jesus spoke it. repent and believe the gospel; because the kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe. The call goes out to all men. Repent and believe.
Amen.

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MennoSota

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The call of God is clear, Jesus spoke it. repent and believe the gospel; because the kingdom of God is at hand repent and believe. The call goes out to all men. Repent and believe.
Was that said before or after the crucifixion and resurrection? Was Jesus talking to the Jews? Which of the Jews actually repented and believed? Was it those whom God elected or was it anyone who decided on their own?
 

Andrew

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Was that said before or after the crucifixion and resurrection? Was Jesus talking to the Jews? Which of the Jews actually repented and believed? Was it those whom God elected or was it anyone who decided on their own?
No. Only the 12 minus 1 are saved ;)



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Perhaps you could answer this question I asked here? http://christianityhaven.com/showth...s-death-on-the-cross-actually-achieve-for-you

What did Jesus' death on the cross actually achieve for you then if your justification doesn't come from His death on the cross? I'm not wanting a response in this thread since it should go in the one I linked. Thanks.

I went there and gave an answer for you -
Pease feel free to cut and paste it here if you think it might prove useful...

Salvation is not Justification - It is the overcoming of Death...
Justification is a necessary feature OF Salvation...

Arsenios
 
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