Justification

[Arsenios]

How is it that you can preach salvation by works?

I don't - Why do you keep saying that I do...

I preach Salvation by God...
THROUGH the works of the Faith of Christ...
Just as the Bible clearly proclaims...

Repentance is unto Salvation...
That is God's Plan...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

John 6:43-45
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Why do you care?
I do not mean that as a flippant question. Everyone who HEARS and learns from the Father will be drawn to the Son, but those who do not hear and learn just stand and grumble, unable to accept or believe the words preached to them (John 6).

We are later told that there is a simple explanation. The natural man views things of the Spirit as foolishness. Only those with spiritual “ears to hear” can understand things of the Spirit. (1 Corinthians 2)

So if you were one of the non-elect. Someone not foreknown by God. Someone not called. Someone not justified. Someone not glorified. You would view things of the Spirit as foolishness and you would have no concern at all whether you were one of God’s elect or not. The fact that someone cares, indicates that they have ears to hear and are foreknown and called and justified by the blood of Christ and destined to be glorified.

Remember that John 6:44 begins with the warning “no one can come to me unless” and ends with the promise “I will raise him up on the last day.”
The Father foreknew (foreloved) and the Church called and Jesus justified on the cross and the Holy Spirit is a deposit that guarantees the inheritance of glorification ... to the eternal glory of the triune GOD.

I was one of these - Denied God and did not like Christians at all, and would not suffer them to be in my presence as Christians... I did not seek God at all... I can still prove He does not exist...

And yet I found God, not seeking Him, but actively denying Him utterly, scorning those who preached Him...

So until you can account for people not seeking Him finding Him, your words ring false...

And Paul wrote of these from Isaiah...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Was that said before or after the crucifixion and resurrection? Was Jesus talking to the Jews? Which of the Jews actually repented and believed? Was it those whom God elected or was it anyone who decided on their own?

All the Apostles save Judas Iscariot...
Plus the 70...
Plus the 2-3000 at Pentecost...
Plus all their disciples whom they taught...

All of them through Repentance siezing the Kingdom of Heaven Who is Christ...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

I don't - Why do you keep saying that I do...

I preach Salvation by God...
THROUGH the works of the Faith of Christ...
Just as the Bible clearly proclaims...

Repentance is unto Salvation...
That is God's Plan...

Arsenios

You seem deaf to your own words. What you have just written is works salvation. I admit that I cannot make you see your error. You are apparently blind to see your mistake.

 

[Arsenios]

You seem deaf to your own words. What you have just written is works salvation. I admit that I cannot make you see your error. You are apparently blind to see your mistake.

I can make it simpler for you...

We are saved by Grace through Faith, yes?
The Faith is a great work of repentance...
This is what you do not seem to discern...
The difference between THROUGH faith and BY Grace...
eg THROUGH repentance and BY God...

At the first indication of our need for repentance that God should save us, you immediately insist that I am saying God CANNOT saves us but our works DO... I cannot correct this for you... We are simply going to have to agree to disagree... Or you can continue in your false allegations...

I have NEVER said we are saved BY works THROUGH God...
Not even once ever...
Yet that is your false insistence...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

To meet the demands of both of you, let us agree that you believe that we earn our salvation in part by the Works we do. Faith is also a part.

 

[MennoSota]

I can make it simpler for you...

We are saved by Grace through Faith, yes?
The Faith is a great work of repentance...
This is what you do not seem to discern...
The difference between THROUGH faith and BY Grace...
eg THROUGH repentance and BY God...

At the first indication of our need for repentance that God should save us, you immediately insist that I am saying God CANNOT saves us but our works DO... I cannot correct this for you... We are simply going to have to agree to disagree... Or you can continue in your false allegations...

I have NEVER said we are saved BY works THROUGH God...
Not even once ever...
Yet that is your false insistence...

Arsenios

You need to end at "Saved by grace."
Faith is the gift that is given by God's grace. Repentance is the effect of God's gift of faith.
It is all God.
But, you claim the work of faith and repentance as your own. You give yourself glory and remove it from God.
You preach salvation via works. How so? Because you add your own efforts on after the truth "We are saved by grace."

 

[Albion]

You preach salvation via works. How so? Because you add your own efforts on after the truth "We are saved by grace."

In other words, he believes in works and faith that is the result of grace. Both.

 

[MennoSota]

In other words, he believes in works and faith that is the result of grace. Both.

He believes that he is responsible for his salvation and justification. That is works salvation, not grace. The subtle pretzel twist is in the way Arsenios is wording his response. For Arsenios it cannot be all God's work. Arsenios insists on himself assisting the process and ultimately himself being the determiner of his own fate.
Do you see who becomes the Sovereign in that case?

 

[Albion]

He believes that he is responsible for his salvation and justification. That is works salvation, not grace. The subtle pretzel twist is in the way Arsenios is wording his response. For Arsenios it cannot be all God's work. Arsenios insists on himself assisting the process and ultimately himself being the determiner of his own fate.

The point--regardless of whatever else can be said on the subject and whatever my own beliefs about justification and salvation are--is that he does not believe in salvation by works, period. It is the combination of faith and works.

 

[Josiah]

It is the combination of faith and works.

I guess we'd need to define what "IT" is. Luther and Calvin went to enormous lengths to make it unavoidably clear (impossible for the Catholics to misunderstand) what they were referring to as "Justification" (it is the 'narrow' sense.... see post 671). And the Catholic Church made it as clear as it possibily could that THAT (see post 671) is what it was anathematizing as heresy, rejecting and repudiating in the boldest and strongest way possible. Everyone agreed on the truths that apply to the one who has been give spiritual life, faith and the Holy Spirit so THAT was never an issue and certainly never in dispute. Not 500 years ago, not now.


IMO, when Justification is a "combination" of Jesus and self, His works and our works, a Pelagian and synergistic cooperation where Jesus does His part (the part that actually accomplishes nothing and saves no one) and the Dead atheistic enemy of God does his part (the part that actually accomplishes his justification and entry to heaven), then Jesus is not the Savior and the Holy Spirit is not the Giver of life. And it seems to me the Ecumenical Council of Orange is being repudiated and at least semi Pelagianism restored. And IMO, it would be dishonest to say that that Jesus is the Savior when actually He would be AT MOST part Savior (the part that actually saves no one). If one claims that Jesus is the Savior then one should hold that Jesus is the one who saves. IF it is insisted that God empowers sinful man to get better and better - and eventually good enough to enter Purgatory or even heaven, then IMO they've entirely left Christianity. Even if Jesus is seen as one of the helpers we get in this.... even if one holds that Jesus opened the door to heaven SO THAT those who save themselves can go through it.


Luther was horrified by what the sellers of Indulgences were saying about justification because it was NOT biblical, it was NOT apostolic, it was NOT Catholic, it was NOT iin line with Tradition or the Councils or the Creeds. And he found the same horrible MESS being preached in pulpits all over Germany by Catholic priests who sadly were almost entirely uneducated and untrained. It was a HORRIBLE entanglement of Law and Gospel, Christ and self, Justification and Sanctification, terrifying people (including himself - he was the 'victim' of this too for years) BUT yes, making them willing to buy Indulgences, pay the "Turk Tax" and generally give the denomination anything it demanded in HOPES that MAYBE heaven would be their own (someday).* Luther, a Doctor of the Church and an official Catholic theologian and teacher, got volunteered (it was not a rule he wanted) to correct this HORRIBLE message and bring into clear view the CATHOLIC understanding - which wholly repudiated Pelagianism in all its forms, which proclaimed JESUS (and in NO SENSE self) as the Savior, that insisted that the Holy Spirit is the GIVER (not offerer) of Life (it's right in the Creed). He was certain the "establishment" (including the horribly corrupt and largely ignorant Pope) would REJOICE in his call, thank him, and restore the Gospel to the pews. YES, Luther realized, correcting the horrible message might hurt the income to the RCC from Indulgences, etc., etc, etc. but he was CERTAIN the Church did not want money given because Christ was being denied as Savior and hearts terrified with a WRONG message. He was wrong.



A blessed Pentecost to you and yours.


- Josiah



* The "horrible mess" Luther decried was essentially the same thing I was taught in the CC nearly 500 years later, the same thing Albion noted he too was taught in the RCC nearly 500 years later. Not QUITE as obvious, but pretty much the same.




.

 

[MennoSota]

The point--regardless of whatever else can be said on the subject and whatever my own beliefs about justification and salvation are--is that he does not believe in salvation by works, period. It is the combination of faith and works.

Any combination becomes salvation by works. Works eliminates grace as an option and it reduces the glory and magnification of God's supremacy and sovereignty. It is the mindset of the prideful human, bent on having control over God's command.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A man is justified by works and not by faith alone, says the holy scriptures and the holy scriptures say you are saved by grace through faith --- for good works that God prepared in advance for the faithful to live in. Justification is not exactly the same thing as salvation. What is clear however is that grace saves, faith and good works justify, and the gospel is repent and believe.

 

[Arsenios]

To meet the demands of both of you, let us agree that you believe that we earn our salvation in part by the Works we do. Faith is also a part.

We do not and indeed CANNOT earn even so much as one teeny-weeny bizillionth of an atomic particle of our Salvation...

Salvation is the Gift of God to us of Himself...
We cannot possibly earn it, because we do not create it...
Plant wheat and harvest it and you have earned the crop...
God is not created...
The Grace of God is not created...
We are saved by this uncreated Grace...
This uncreated Grace is God's Gift to us that transforms our soul and person into union with God...
This Union is the marriage lf the Lamb...
God cannot be earned by His creation...
Creation cannot earn uncreation...
Salvation HAS to be a Gift...

For us to attain it, nay even to sieze it, in this fallen life, we must do as God commands us to do, and that is to turn from evil, turn unto God, deny self, take up our cross, and follow Christ... Those are all works... And if we do these works, God is faithful and will give to us the Gift of Himself by His Grace...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

He believes that he is responsible for his salvation and justification.

Indeed I am totally responsible in this fallen life...
Choosing good and choosing evil
unto God's approval
and
unto God's disapproval...

That is works salvation, not grace.

You should capitalize the term Grace - It is God Himself...
Me choosing good cannot cause God to give me Salvation...
But God DOES give Salvation to those choosing good and turning from evil...
Nobody can ever cause God to do anything...

The subtle pretzel twist is in the way Arsenios is wording his response.

You need to pull the pretzle twist out of your own eye, my Brother...

For Arsenios it cannot be all God's work.

It is God's Grace of the Gift of Himself that IS Salvation...
You make it sound like Christ got nailed to the Cross and then worked really really hard up there for us all, and earned our Salvation for us by really working so very very hard on that Cross... The truth is that He Ascended the Cross for us, and suffered and died for us there, that He overcome the power of death by dying as a sinless man who overcame the world... And YOU, my Brother, are, if you are willing, to follow Him... He did not do all that for us so that we do not need to suffer our own cross, die, and arise again, but that we CAN in Him do that very thing, and become AS He is IN Him... IF you are willing to suffer for Christ and for man...

Arsenios insists on himself assisting the process and ultimately himself being the determiner of his own fate.

We do determine our own fate, but we do not cause it...

Only God CAN cause our fate...

God is Faithful...

He rewards the Good in us...

And punishes the evil...

You do, you see, under God, have self responsibility...

Do you see who becomes the Sovereign in that case?

Yes - God...

We are totally responsible...
God is totally in control...

We can choose Good and evil...
God rewards us accordingly...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

[Arsenios] does not believe in Salvation by works, period.

Truer words have not been uttered!

It is the combination of faith and works.

It is by God alone, for God IS our Salvation...

God Himself, and not His works...

I sometimes believe that our works are given to us to do so that we will KNOW in the Age to Come why we have the place in that age that we end up having... That we are assigned by our works as God already knows we belong, so that we ourselves will know our place therein...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Any combination becomes salvation by works.

That would explain your insistence upon wrongly characterizing his POV, all right.

 

[Josiah]

We do not and indeed CANNOT earn even so much as one teeny-weeny bizillionth of an atomic particle of our Salvation...

Welcome to the Protestant position.

I invite you to read post 671. You have indicated that you agree with it AND also that you utterly disagree with it. Sometimes (as above) you state the general Protestant position very clearly (and place yourself into the same "camp" that the Catholic Church declares is heretical and anathematized) but we can't know which it is since you have agreed (and repeated) the Lutheran position while insisting that the Lutheran is "utterly wrong" on this point. Perhaps you'll do what MoreCoffee for years has refused to do: Show us EXACTLY what in the apostate, heretical position of Lutheranism on this is so very, horribly WRONG (see post 671). And remember: At least the Catholic position is NOT (and never has been) that the Lutheran position doesn't say enough, it is that the Lutheran position is apostate heresy, to be repudiated and anthematized (and indeed split the Western Church nearly in half over). It was NOT (and never has been) a case of "You Lutherans say too little, you should go on to say EXACTLY as you do and that we agree with." It was "what you say on this point is heresy." WHAT, in the opinion of the Orthodox, is clearly apostasy and heresy in post 671? That would help us. You constant echoing of the Protestant position while saying you utterly disagree with it continues to be bewildering.

For us to attain it, nay even to sieze it, in this fallen life, we must do as God commands us to do, and that is to turn from evil, turn unto God, deny self, take up our cross, and follow Christ... Those are all works... And if we do these works, God is faithful and will give to us the Gift of Himself by His Grace...

So, which is it? Is Justification a gift as you claim, or is it something self "siezes" and earns and accomplishes as you say here?

OR do you agree with Lutherans that there are two inseparable, critical aspects here - that are not identical. We are GIVEN life by the Holy Spirit, we are GIVEN justification by Christ via the Incarnation - Cross - Resurrection, and (now alive in Him, married to the Lamb, empowered and directed by the Spirit) we grow and mature, leaving behind evil, denying self, taking up our Cross and following Christ - all to be rewarded in heaven?




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[MennoSota]

That would explain your insistence upon wrongly characterizing his POV, all right.

It explains why I call syncretism...works salvation. So many Christians imagine they are co-rulers with God and they get to negotiate in committee with God over the destination of their lives. But, that is just a fantasy and imagination. It is not God's teaching on the matter.
God is the absolute and sole dictator over all His creation. His rule is His alone and we fall under His final decision. There is no negotiation regarding justification and salvation. God decides...period.
Anything less is an attempt to cheapen God and bring Him down to human status. It is a carnal and worldly attempt to claim self-dominion. It is a rebellious claim from a still rebellious human. I want no part in such rebellion to my King and absolute Sovereign.

 

[Albion]

It explains why I call syncretism...works salvation.

Considering that syncretism and "works salvation" are quite different, this isn't clearing the air.