Justification

[atpollard]

Holy scripture says "repent and believe" which may imply that repentance precedes faith.

Careful, there is a lecture on ‘kai’ floating around ... and you may have just stepped into it.

 

[atpollard]

That is correct. Maybe it uses "and" because the two things are inseparable and neither precedes the other; that is why I pointed it out, but some here like to argue that "believe and be baptised" must mean that faith comes before baptism so why not point to "repent and believe" as using a similar model? It will be interesting to see how they argue their case - can they do so and remain consistent with their explanation of 'and' in their theology of baptism?

In both the “repent and believe” and “believe and be baptized”, they are presenting linked events that should be occurring at the same time. Not ‘repent now and believe at some future year’ or ‘be baptized now and believe at some future year’. (The lecture on ‘kai’ notwithstanding.)

 

[Lamb]

That is correct. Maybe it uses "and" because the two things are inseparable and neither precedes the other; that is why I pointed it out, but some here like to argue that "believe and be baptised" must mean that faith comes before baptism so why not point to "repent and believe" as using a similar model? It will be interesting to see how they argue their case - can they do so and remain consistent with their explanation of 'and' in their theology of baptism?

Precisely...they are together and both cannot be done without having faith first. One cannot believe in God unless by God's grace faith was first given. One cannot fully turn to God in repentance unless he believed that God existed...by grace through faith.

 

[Josiah]

In both the “repent and believe” and “believe and be baptized”, they are presenting linked events

Yes.

that should be occurring at the same time

No.


Such is not only grammatically incorrect but illogical and creates enormous theological problems (including destroying every part of TULIP). MANY things are associated ("linked" to use your term) but it's both illogical and unbiblical to appoint self to mandate to God that these all must happen in a certain chronological sequence or all at the same microsecond. And of course, such would also mandate radical synergism in Justification which both of us reject (in so many ways, I find a Calvinist Baptist to be a theological oxymoron).




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Precisely...they are together

That's right. They are inseparable. The come together. Neither is first.

and both cannot be done without having faith first.

That's wrong. Your post is self contradicting. "They are together" is not "faith comes first then comes repentance". It is repentance and faith. It is "repent and believe" not "believe and then repent".

One cannot believe in God unless by God's grace faith was first given. One cannot fully turn to God in repentance unless he believed that God existed...by grace through faith.

I don't buy into your posts strictures. I don't buy the "one cannot do X unless Y" paradigm your post creates. Holy scripture says "repent and believe the gospel" that is what I say too. You can say whatever you like.

 

[Lamb]

That's right. They are inseparable. The come together. Neither is first.



That's wrong. Your post is self contradicting. "They are together" is not "faith comes first then comes repentance". It is repentance and faith. It is "repent and believe" not "believe and then repent".


I don't buy into your posts strictures. I don't buy the "one cannot do X unless Y" paradigm your post creates. Holy scripture says "repent and believe the gospel" that is what I say too. You can say whatever you like.

Repentance is a gift from God. Believing is also a gift because we cannot believe that God exists without faith first because the true God includes the Savior and the Gospel is foolishness to unbelievers.

Your method forces an action by an unbeliever to become a believer (without faith) and that is not what scripture states can happen.

 

[Albion]

I don't buy into your posts strictures. I don't buy the "one cannot do X unless Y" paradigm your post creates. Holy scripture says "repent and believe the gospel" that is what I say too. You can say whatever you like.

You must say what you do or else put yourself outside of your own denomination's theology, but, that aside, "X and Y" does not in any way mean "X first, then Y becomes possible." No, it doesn't.

The basic issue may remain unsettled, but that particular wording does not prove anything one way or the other.





.

 

[Josiah]

Holy scripture says "repent and believe the gospel" that is what I say too. You can say whatever you like.

Many have a theology that requires that they change what God said to, "repent and THEN believe." But here's the problem: without faith, it is impossible to repent. Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Without faith, one is an enemy of God, one denies God. Repentance means more than remorse (which your God can feel), it means sorrow for offending GOD.... believeing GOD...... looking to God's MERCY...... seeking God's FORGIVENESS in Christ, in view of the Cross and Empty Tomb. This is something only the living can do, only those with faith and the Holy Spirit can do.

I agree that LOTS of things are "linked" (associated). And I agree that these are inseparable and must not be dismissed or diminished. And Lutherans argue there is MUCH mystery here. But on the other hand, we must not organize these associations in ways that destroy Christianity and make Christ irrelevant - speculations that countradict and destroy Christianity cannot be correct. Justification BECAUSE I did a good work (in this case, when I was DEAD I did things so pleasing to God that I earned life) is, IMO, a fairly good conveying of the Islamic soteriology but it renders Christianity irrelevant, Christ a joke, and the Gospel wrong. IF it is true that Jesus is the Savior in the sense of narrow Justification (and I know we radically disagree on that point), then it MUST be that Jesus is the Savior and self is not, it MUST be that it is HIS works that accomplishes this and not ours. By insisting that OUR act of a Dead One who denies God nonetheless performs a work that actually results in his coming to life, then (as Scripture says) Jesus' work was "in vain."

Friend, we DO have mystery here.... we DO have a LOT (LOT!) of things associated with justification, a LOT of aspects in soteriology..... but efforts to impose OUR speculations that end up destroying the faith and eliminating Jesus as the Savior must be rejected. And thus, I reject ignoring the word in the text (kai) and replacing it with one of the 3 words in koine Greek that mean "then" (but are never used in any verse about Baptism). I think the Holy Spirit would perhaps have used a word for "then" if "then" was the case. We have an association..... not a chronological sequence that destroys Christianity and makes Islamic soteriology correct.

 

[Lamb]

There are believers and then there are unbelievers. Repent and believe....MC admits those two ideas belong together....but Unbelievers do NOT believe. So how does he think unbelievers can repent?

 

[MennoSota]

Nope. You are preaching works salvation. In your schema the human must conjure up:
1) Repentance
2) Belief

However, those are two things that a spiritually dead person cannot conjure.
Instead, God gives faith. Faith is observed in that it stirs us to repentance and reveals itself in belief.
God calls us to be ambassadors of reconciliation. We call people to repentance and belief, but only those to whom God chooses to give the gift of faith will actually be capable of repentance and belief.

Holy scripture says "repent and believe" which may imply that repentance precedes faith.

 

[Arsenios]

It's not saying Repent then believe.

Mat 3:1-2
In those days came John the Baptist,
preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
And saying,
"Be ye repenting,
for (the reason that)
the Kingdom of Heaven
is at hand."

The Prize is announced, the Good News of its Presence, here and now, upon this earth...
The Prize that is locked away from man to this very day and hour...
Locked away from even its last and greatest Prophet, John the Baptizer of Christ...
For John Himself went to hell, and never entered it on this earth...

But he proclaimed the REAL Good News, that each of you without exception...
Each of you has the Key to attain entry into this Kingdom...
Christ only wants one thing from you and He will bring you into His Kingdom...
And that one thing is your repentance from this world...
That you turn from the world and from your self...
And that you turn to God crying out:
"Blessed is He that Cometh in the Name of the Lord!"

Then John was beheaded by Herod in prison...
For the sake of dirty dancing by his wife's daughter...
And after this, his mission was taken up by Christ Himself:


Matt 4:17
From that time Jesus began proclaiming and saying,
"Be ye repenting,
for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

And Mark confirms:
Mar 1:14-15
Now after that John was put in prison,
Jesus came into Galilee,
preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God,
And saying,
"The time is fulfilled,
and the Kingdom of God is at hand:
Be ye repenting
and believing IN
the Gospel."

So this last affirms that it is the pewsence of the Kingdom of God that IS the Gospel Good News...
And because it has drawn nigh, there is something you can do about it...
You can be repenting and believing in this Gospel of the nearness of the Kingdom of God...

Repentance is first, then believing is second...
Even if you do not believe in the presence of the Kingdom of God, you can be repenting...
And if you live a life of repenting, you will come to believing...
You can repent without believing the Gospel... For years and years...
Believing the Gospel without repenting is an oxymoron...
The Gospel is Repentance unto the attaining of the Kingdom of God on earth...

The word order is not accidental...
It did not say: "Believe and repent in the Gospel"
It does say: "Be ye repenting, and believe the Gospel..."

That Kingdom is here and now...
The key to its doors is repentance...
That key is in your pocket...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You must say what you do or else put yourself outside of your own denomination's theology, but, that aside, "X and Y" does not in any way mean "X first, then Y becomes possible." No, it doesn't.

The basic issue may remain unsettled, but that particular wording does not prove anything one way or the other.
.

The simple test is this: Try reversing the wording...

Christ was taking up John's ministry upon his death...

John said "Be ye repenting..." A command...
And then the reason: "For the Kingdom of Heaven hath drawn nigh..."

The Gospel is the Kingdom of God's presence here and now on earth...

The command is to be repenting...

And believing IN the Gospel...

And the Gospel is the Presence of the Kingdom of God...

I don't know why the IN is left out of so many translations...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Many have a theology that requires that they change what God said to, "repent and THEN believe." But here's the problem: without faith, it is impossible to repent. Without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Without faith, one is an enemy of God, one denies God. Repentance means more than remorse (which your God can feel), it means sorrow for offending GOD.... believeing GOD...... looking to God's MERCY...... seeking God's FORGIVENESS in Christ, in view of the Cross and Empty Tomb. This is something only the living can do, only those with faith and the Holy Spirit can do.

I agree that LOTS of things are "linked" (associated). And I agree that these are inseparable and must not be dismissed or diminished. And Lutherans argue there is MUCH mystery here. But on the other hand, we must not organize these associations in ways that destroy Christianity and make Christ irrelevant - speculations that countradict and destroy Christianity cannot be correct. Justification BECAUSE I did a good work (in this case, when I was DEAD I did things so pleasing to God that I earned life) is, IMO, a fairly good conveying of the Islamic soteriology but it renders Christianity irrelevant, Christ a joke, and the Gospel wrong. IF it is true that Jesus is the Savior in the sense of narrow Justification (and I know we radically disagree on that point), then it MUST be that Jesus is the Savior and self is not, it MUST be that it is HIS works that accomplishes this and not ours. By insisting that OUR act of a Dead One who denies God nonetheless performs a work that actually results in his coming to life, then (as Scripture says) Jesus' work was "in vain."

Friend, we DO have mystery here.... we DO have a LOT (LOT!) of things associated with justification, a LOT of aspects in soteriology..... but efforts to impose OUR speculations that end up destroying the faith and eliminating Jesus as the Savior must be rejected. And thus, I reject ignoring the word in the text (kai) and replacing it with one of the 3 words in koine Greek that mean "then" (but are never used in any verse about Baptism). I think the Holy Spirit would perhaps have used a word for "then" if "then" was the case. We have an association..... not a chronological sequence that destroys Christianity and makes Islamic soteriology correct.

I denied God for 36 years living a repentant life...

"I will be found by those not seeking Me..."

I have seen this with my own eyes in my own soul...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Was this before the cross or after? If before, then it was not a repentance unto salvation. They were not justified before God by their repentance.
Why do you preach justification by works?

Mat 3:1-2
In those days came John the Baptist,
preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
And saying,
"Be ye repenting,
for (the reason that)
the Kingdom of Heaven
is at hand."

The Prize is announced, the Good News of its Presence, here and now, upon this earth...
The Prize that is locked away from man to this very day and hour...
Locked away from even its last and greatest Prophet, John the Baptizer of Christ...
For John Himself went to hell, and never entered it on this earth...

But he proclaimed the REAL Good News, that each of you without exception...
Each of you has the Key to attain entry into this Kingdom...
Christ only wants one thing from you and He will bring you into His Kingdom...
And that one thing is your repentance from this world...
That you turn from the world and from your self...
And that you turn to God crying out:
"Blessed is He that Cometh in the Name of the Lord!"

Then John was beheaded by Herod in prison...
For the sake of dirty dancing by his wife's daughter...
And after this, his mission was taken up by Christ Himself:


Matt 4:17
From that time Jesus began proclaiming and saying,
"Be ye repenting,
for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

And Mark confirms:
Mar 1:14-15
Now after that John was put in prison,
Jesus came into Galilee,
preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God,
And saying,
"The time is fulfilled,
and the Kingdom of God is at hand:
Be ye repenting
and believing IN
the Gospel."

So this last affirms that it is the pewsence of the Kingdom of God that IS the Gospel Good News...
And because it has drawn nigh, there is something you can do about it...
You can be repenting and believing in this Gospel of the nearness of the Kingdom of God...

Repentance is first, then believing is second...
Even if you do not believe in the presence of the Kingdom of God, you can be repenting...
And if you live a life of repenting, you will come to believing...
You can repent without believing the Gospel... For years and years...
Believing the Gospel without repenting is an oxymoron...
The Gospel is Repentance unto the attaining of the Kingdom of God on earth...

The word order is not accidental...
It did not say: "Believe and repent in the Gospel"
It does say: "Be ye repenting, and believe the Gospel..."

That Kingdom is here and now...
The key to its doors is repentance...
That key is in your pocket...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

I meant to like Josiah's comments.

I denied God for 36 years living a repentant life...

"I will be found by those not seeking Me..."

I have seen this with my own eyes in my own soul...

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

John the Baptist did not preach to the pagans or the Gentiles but to the Jews who were looking forward to the Messiah. Did they not already believe in GOD? They were living a law driven life though, this much we know.

 

[Josiah]

Mat 3:1-2
In those days came John the Baptist,
preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
And saying,
"Be ye repenting,
for (the reason that)
the Kingdom of Heaven
is at hand."

The Prize is announced, the Good News of its Presence, here and now, upon this earth...
The Prize that is locked away from man to this very day and hour...
Locked away from even its last and greatest Prophet, John the Baptizer of Christ...
For John Himself went to hell, and never entered it on this earth...

But he proclaimed the REAL Good News, that each of you without exception...
Each of you has the Key to attain entry into this Kingdom...
Christ only wants one thing from you and He will bring you into His Kingdom...
And that one thing is your repentance from this world...
That you turn from the world and from your self...
And that you turn to God crying out:
"Blessed is He that Cometh in the Name of the Lord!"

Then John was beheaded by Herod in prison...
For the sake of dirty dancing by his wife's daughter...
And after this, his mission was taken up by Christ Himself:


Matt 4:17
From that time Jesus began proclaiming and saying,
"Be ye repenting,
for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

And Mark confirms:
Mar 1:14-15
Now after that John was put in prison,
Jesus came into Galilee,
preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God,
And saying,
"The time is fulfilled,
and the Kingdom of God is at hand:
Be ye repenting
and believing IN
the Gospel."

So this last affirms that it is the pewsence of the Kingdom of God that IS the Gospel Good News...
And because it has drawn nigh, there is something you can do about it...
You can be repenting and believing in this Gospel of the nearness of the Kingdom of God...

Repentance is first, then believing is second...
Even if you do not believe in the presence of the Kingdom of God, you can be repenting...
And if you live a life of repenting, you will come to believing...
You can repent without believing the Gospel... For years and years...
Believing the Gospel without repenting is an oxymoron...
The Gospel is Repentance unto the attaining of the Kingdom of God on earth...

The word order is not accidental...
It did not say: "Believe and repent in the Gospel"
It does say: "Be ye repenting, and believe the Gospel..."

That Kingdom is here and now...
The key to its doors is repentance...
That key is in your pocket...

Arsenios

I disagree.

The dead can't live. The dead can't give self life. The Holy Spirit is the GIVER of life (which means it must be given.... and self can't do it). Jesus is the Savior (which means I'm not.... and that I need One who SAVES). Those who are ENEMIES of God, who DENY God, who REJECT and repudiate God's wisdom and mercy, who even deny there is any God to offend or to forgive - they are not going to turn their hearts to God, confess they have offended SPECIFICALLY God, that they are wrong BECAUSE they were contrary to the will of God, and look to God for His mercy and forgiveness in Christ and in view of the Cross and the Empty Tomb. I think you are making the mistake of dogmatically insisting that if things are linked, you can tell God that there MUST be a single step followed by single step sequence and we'll tell Him what that is. On the other hand, there are things that CANNOT exist until other things have happened. I could not attain my Ph.D degree BEFORE I was born. I could not be given the prize of a medal for swimming before I learned how to swim.

As I noted, obviously there is mystery here.... but IMO we cannot try to eliminate mystery by imposing speculations that actually contradict the Gospel and what Scripture states (say by eliminating the word "kai" and substituting one of the words that means "then").

But I have a bigger problem with that. Because what I see you implying is that the key to heaven is in my pocket and it's up to me to unlock it. IF that's so, then Christianity is not so.... Christ is in vain (as the Bible says).... Jesus is not the Savior..... essentially, Islam is right - we have all we need to save ourselves, we just need divine empowering to do it. In that soteriology, there is no need for a Savior from God since the Savior is staring at us in the mirror. If justification is a matter of SELF performing a good work (in this case, the Dead person who rejects, repudiates and denies God) nonetheless knowing he offended the God (who doesn't exist), looks to God (who doesn't exist) to extend mercy (which God doesn't have) because of Christ (who never was) via the Cross and the Empty Tomb (which are pure myth) - and the reward for that is heaven. Self got self into heaven. The only work that matters is the one the Dead person did for self. IMO, that destroys Christianity and its Chief Article: Jesus is the Savior.

I don't pretend to know the dynamic here..... but I KNOW that whatever it is, it cannot be such that makes Christianity a lie, Christ a joke, and Islam the better soteriology. I conclude I must reject any speculation that means the Savior is the one in the mirror and not the One on the Cross. Truth CANNOT make Christianity false. We may end up with a question mark (Lutherans are fine with question marks), we may need to conclude we just don't understand exactly how all this "cranks out" in a personal way (as Lutherans do), but it is WRONG to insist that self saves self by doing a good work self can't and won't ever do. Now..... IF you want to say, "GOD turns our hearts so that we repent...." then we're on the same page, but you are suggesting something very different than that.

Yes, there is a prize. But in JUSTIFICATION, that is "the gift of God" the Bible repeatedly states, it is the work of GOD, it is an "inheritance." If it's a prize the dead give to self, then Jesus was all in vain - and so is Christianity. Now, in Sanctification - yup, the prize is something we achieve via the direction and empowering of God but this is something only the living can pursue, only WITH the Holy Spirit and faith - not being totally void of such because we don't need no God cuz we got self. Physically speaking, I didn't cause myself to be conceived and to have life - God GAVE it to me. Yes, now WITH THAT GIFT, I can grow to be the man God calls me to be, but my growing is not what caused my being alive, it is my being alive that empowers my growing. I have prizes already (including my Ph.D.) but that Ph.D. is not what caused me to be conceived and be alive.

 

[Arsenios]

Justification (by works)
BECAUSE I did a good work (in this case, when I was DEAD I did things so pleasing to God that I earned life)
renders ... Christ a joke, and the Gospel wrong...

You are utterly right...
We are not justified by good works...
And repenting is a good work...
Yet we are saved through the Faith of Christ...
Which He discipled to us through His Apostles...
And REPENT is the very first word of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God...

So we are then forced to confess that we are Justified by God...
And that God Justifies us through our repenting from evils...
Lest we make void the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

By insisting that OUR act of a Dead One who denies God nonetheless performs a work that actually results in his coming to life, then (as Scripture says) Jesus' work was "in vain."

This understanding of our being dead prior to regeneration is simply not true...
And for this reason, at least in part...
For IF it were true...
THEN...
We would not be fallen in Adam struggling between Good and evil...
BECAUSE...
We would be utterly destroyed altogether...

I think the Holy Spirit would perhaps have used a word for "then" if "then" was the case.

Yet the words are themselves sequential, and the construction suggests that "be ye repenting" is one thing, and "be ye believing in the Gospel" is another... And the sentence before tells us clearly that the Gospel is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, which is crying out in the wilderness: "Be ye repenting!"

"Be ye repenting" IS the very first word OF the "Gospel of the Kingdom of God."

So my question for you, my lover of Mystery Friend, is this:

Why?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Why do you preach justification by works?

I do not and never have...

Justification is BY God...

THROUGH repentance...

We are saved BY Grace THROUGH the Faith...

Why do you continue in your false accusations?

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

So my question for you, my lover of Mystery Friend, is this:

Why?

Arsenios

I don't claim to be smarter than God or the Lord of God. His ways are not our ways.... God chose the FOOLISH in order to shame the wise.

Lutherans are fine with tensions, with leaving questions as questions, with "letting God have the last word" even if such seems to raise questions rather than answer them. God is not subject to the wisdom of man (or men). God is not subject to pagan philosophy or speculations. On the other hand, Christ is True... the Gospel is True. Anything that clearly contradicts God MUST be wrong (as in - IMO - repentance is a good work that the Dead do which results in justification; the dead give themselves life by repenting - who needs God or mercy or Christ or the Cross or the Resurrection when the dead have their own dead self).



As for your point about the Fall, yup - that's a difference between East and West. And beyond the scope of our thread here. Lutherans hold to original sin and also to total depravity. I realize the East holds to a "milder" stance. But IMO that doesn't come into play here since either one holds that we need SAVING (not just a little help from a friend) or we don't. No matter how "fallen" the one may be that needs to be SAVED. And it doesn't necessarily inpact WHO is that Savior - the one on the Cross or the one in the mirror. HOW "fallen" one is down in the pit doesn't impact whether he must crawl up on his own or The Savior saves him. And it CERTAINLY doesn't impact the "what then?" issue of what the saved then are to do.