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Justification

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MennoSota

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John did not preach justification and salvation. This is a thread on justificatiin.
John came as a messenger pointing toward Jesus. You are abusing scripture to force works upon grace.
Again, I point out that John came before the cross. You are preaching the same message as the Judaisers whom God condemned in the letter to the Galatians. Your teaching is anathema, says Paul the Apostle.
Did John the Baptist preach Christ and His Kingdom?

Can you engage the text?



The Gospel is about the Kingdom of God...

Repentance is the commandment for the sake of entry into it...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Pointing out the reality that your works salvation is taught by Muslims as well.
Arsenios, did Jesus need to come to this earth and die? If you have to beat your body into submission to be justified then Jesus died in vain for you.
Well, ducking is one way to not engage the text...

A.
 

MennoSota

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We obey. We preach reconciliation. God chooses whom he will reconcile.
The gospel is preached to all the world, most appear to not be Christians and that would make them non-believers. I am not sure what you mean by "unbelievers" but you can explain it if you like.
Mark 16:15 Then he told them, “Go out to the whole world and proclaim the Good News to all creation. 16 The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; the one who refuses to believe will be condemned. 17 Signs like these will accompany those who have believed: in my name they will cast out demons and speak new languages; 18 they will pick up snakes, and if they drink anything poisonous, they will be unharmed; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”​
The gospel is preached to non-believers. That ought to be obvious.
 

Josiah

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John the Baptist wasn't talking to pagans or Gentiles but to those who knew and expected the Messiah to come. When he told them to repent, he was telling them to return to the truth about God and not be so law driven as they were.

Even we need to daily repent and God does that in us by giving us Law to accuse us and bring us to contrition then He gives us faith (or increases) so we can believe the Gospel message that we are FORGIVEN.

Unbelievers do not repent fully ...sure they can be contrite but they do not turn TO God unless He turns them by His Word so they have faith to turn.


Correct.


There are two problems with the "Repentance causes us to be justified" theology. 1) The unbeliever cannot and will not repent. They can feel remorse (just as your dog can) but that's not repentance. Repentance IS linked to Justification but it is not a cause of it. 2) This theology makes Christianity a lie, the Gospel wrong and Jesus irrlevant... it simply makes self the Savior of self which self achieves by a good work they perform. If Justification (narrow) is the result of OUR good work, then Jesus is "in vain" as the Bible states. There are those who simply are offended by the Gospel and the belief that Jesus is the Savior and will fight against it at every point; the RCC even declared it to be apostate heresy. But it IS the central point of Christianity, the very point that makes Christianity Christian. Self saving self in a slow, synergistic process of adequate jumping through hoops is the soteriology of Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism but yes proclaimed by some Christians.



- Josiah
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

I HOPE THIS HELPS....


Here's the typical, classic Protestant "take" on that. In Justification (narrow) Jesus IS THE Savior (all sufficient). We convey this by Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable, singular teaching (what the RCC excommunicated us for). And we see all of us as "the work of God" "the gift of God" "Not your own doing lest any should have cause to boast" "the inheritance of God." A few liberal Catholics see this as similar to what some Catholics call "INITIAL grace" but we simply call this Justification - which is by grace in view of Christ received via faith. All the GIFT of God. In Justification, we don't see "faith" as OUR work at all, but has GOD'S work exclusively - which He formed, He gave to us. God is the GIVER of life (not just the Offerer). We get REAL uncomfortable when faith is even implied to be OUR "stuff" which is the good work that results in our justification. Now, switching gears, ONCE JUSTIFIED (now with the gift of life, the gift of faith, the gift of the Holy Spirit) now as a Child of God, a Christian, faith IS something we employ as we "tap into" the empowering of God and the direction/wisdom of God.... in Sanctification, there is a "good you do" aspect to faith - but that's a different enchilada.


This issue comes up CONSTANTLY as Catholics and Protestants talk past each other on the narrow topic of Justification: Both of us will say (sincerely!) We are justified by grace in Christ through faith. But mean the exact opposite. Why? Because Catholic view this as part of Sanctification and define "grace" in THAT context - "grace" = God's empowering (which IS the meaning in Sanctification). Thus: God gives you all the ability/strength/empowering you need to gain justification, you just need to adequately tap it. This Protestants see as.... well, as you see MennoSota doing. It's Islamic. It's Pelagianism. And it means the Savior is you and Jesus is a joke. It means that we just need a little HELP but certainly no Savior. Thus the mantras of our Catholic teahers: God helps those who help themselves..... Jesus opened the gate to heaven but it's up to you to get through them by what you do.... Even one Catholic who flat out told me, "Actually Jesus saves no one, Jesus makes it possible for all to be saved." Protestants, in this context, see grace as God's favor, blessing and GIFT. And of course, someone earns that gift and gives it (inheritance). Thus - we say the exact same words and mean the opposite. I suspect MennoSota is putting your words here.... together with some comments elsewhere.... and wondering if you are defining "faith" not as reliance in the Gift but as active response to the gift - BOTH appropriate definitions, but for different things.


As I've tried to convey, while classic Protestantism upholds the importance of Sanctification AT LEAST AS MUCH as Catholicism (I'd argue much more), we hold that such is what the living are called to do - as a child of God, one with the Gifts of life and faith and the Holy Spirit because one is loved and alive. We get.... really uncomfortable.... when stuff indicates that Jesus is not the Savior, when the Cross and Tomb are irrelevant, when the dead give the dead life rather than the Holy Spirit. Classic Protestantism is monergistic IN JUSTIFICATION and very sensitive to Pelagianism. Jesus is the Savior is what we regard as the Chief Article of Faith (really what makes Christianity distinctive, what makes Christianity Christianity). Now, switching gears to the NEW REALITY that Jesus creates in all who have this GIFT of life, faith and the Holy Spirit - and suddenly, we're all pretty much on the same page (not exactly - there are slight differences - but slight). NOW, for Christians, you CAN speak of grace as empowering.... there is synergism.... there are good works WE perform... there are rewards and prizes in heaven.... and yes, we can wreck our faith and loose the Gifts. But only CHRISTIANS who have the Gift of life, faith and the Spirit.


To place this is the context of repentance, while there's a interplay and a dynamic here we leave as "mystery", Protestants would deny that repentance is what justifies us (making Jesus NOT the Savior) - indeed, we see repentance as part of Sanctification, what a believer does (as opposed to remorse which even your dog does). Now.... does justification exist apart from repentance? Probably not (they ARE linked). But does that mean that repentance is the (or even a) good work that the dead perform that results in him thus having life, faith, the Holy Spirit and justification? No. JESUS is the reason for that, look to what JESUS did/does.



I HOPE that helps a bit.....
Probably not, lol




.



Sigh...



So what is the appropriate response to the proclamation of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God?


We receive the gifts of life, faith and the Holy Spirit. MANY things result, including repentance (which is impossible without those gifts).




Is your answer really: "I don't claim to be smarter than God..."???


Yes. You asked why Lutherans embrace MYSTERY..... why we are comfortable leaving questions as questions. I answered it. Frankly, I didn't expect an Orthodox person to be so offended by it.





Are you arguing that fallen man CANNOT repent?


Yes. And not only that they cannot but that they will not. The DEAD reject, deny and repudiate God... they reject that God's wisdom even exists... they reject God's Law and Gospel.... they reject the mercy of God... they reject that there is a Savior.... they reject God's mercy and forgiveness.... So why would they repent? Repent means to turn to God (which they reject)..... confess taht they have offended and wronged God (which they reject even exists and reject any Law that supposedly comes from God), that they look to God for forgiveness (but they reject that God exists and reject that the Non-Existent myth forgives) in view of the Cross and Empty Tomb (which they regard as unhistorical myths). Yes, they can FEEL REMORSE (just like your dog) but that's not repentance, that's just a FEELING experienced by most animals that we goofed. Remorse has nothing whatsoever to do with God.

As I posted, repentance IS linked with Justification (as are MANY things).... and generally it's impossible for justification to be in place without repentance.... but it is wrong to believe that our good work of feeling remorse CAUSES justification. If that were the case, your dog would be justified and of course Jesus would be a joke and Christianity a lie.




So are you really arguing that fallen man prior to Christ's "Work on the Cross" CANNOT repent?


On their own, as a DEAD person without the divine gift of life and faith - yes. But of course, those before Easter often were given those things - simply looking FORWARD to the work of the Savior whereas we look BACK to the work of the Savior. But no, dogs were not justified by the good work of FEELING remorse (meaning there was no need for any Messiah, any promise)





- Josiah



PS I guessed that my post would be in vain, lol



.
 

Arsenios

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Anyone can make a 180 degree turn from the path they are on. That is the meaning of repentance. No one can repent unto Salvation. Our making a 180 degree turn doesn't save us. God making us alive in Christ is what saves us. (Ephesians 2:1-10)
Again, you are preaching salvation by works. Jesus death was unnecessary in your gospel.

You are simply arguing that repentance is not Salvation, because repentance does not cause Salvation...

Repentance is something man does...
Salvation is what God Gives...

If we upon hearing the Gospel do not do our 180 from dead works, God will not save us from the death we are living in our sins...

If YOU are right, God justifies unrepentant baby killers... And THEN they may decide to repent...
If WE are right, baby killers stop killing babies, and THEN God may Justify them...

Do I have this right?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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You asked why Lutherans embrace MYSTERY...

I asked: "Why is the first word of the Gospel the command to be repenting?"...
Your answer was: "I don't claim to be smarter than God."

So you are right, we are talking past each other...

I read your reply as a total punt...

Forgive me...

You were instead honestly answering a question that I had not asked...

I could not for the life of me figure out why you would punt like that...

And I am glad to see that you did not...

Arsenios
 
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Andrew

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Actually they are found only because God is the one who opened their eyes by grace through faith to see. Unbelievers don't go seeking God. The unbelieving mind finds the cross foolish.
When I was at my peak of atheism I would have never believed that in a short time I would be on my knees begging God for mercy, that's when I starting reading the bible and opening my eyes, repented and got baptised :)
Wow, I never wrote that down before, the bible did not call me to repentance but God heard my cry and brought me to his word. Before when I had to read the bible I just made fun and didn't care to believe. It wasn't until I felt completely deserted from the world that I felt completely alone and lost, there was nothing anyone could say or do to help, I went through all brands of anti depressants and was falling into habitual abuse of my meds. I remembering asking if it's possible for someone as dead as me to endure and regain strength and live again. Very possible indeed!! :)

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Saul was an unrepentant killer of Christians. He did not repent first before God saved him on the road to Damascus.
You demand a human act before God can act. You are so very, very wrong that it astonishes me to see you miss the mark so badly despite God's word repeatedly expressing the truth that God acts first by adopting and making his children alive in Christ.
Your works theology is considered anathema. The letter to the Galatians condemns your teaching. I pray God will change your heart and lead you to repentance, Arsenios.
You are simply arguing that repentance is not Salvation, because repentance does not cause Salvation...

Repentance is something man does...
Salvation is what God Gives...

If we upon hearing the Gospel do not do our 180 from dead works, God will not save us from the death we are living in our sins...

If YOU are right, God justifies unrepentant baby killers... And THEN they may decide to repent...
If WE are right, baby killers stop killing babies, and THEN God may Justify them...

Do I have this right?

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Do you imagine you were not guided by God when you were an atheist?
Do you imagine that you stumbled upon God and began begging him for mercy because he was unaware of you? Do you imagine God's sovereign hand was not directing your path? God has always been with you from before your conception to the present moment.
When I was at my peak of atheism I would have never believed that in a short time I would be on my knees begging God for mercy, that's when I starting reading the bible and opening my eyes, repented and got baptised :)
Wow, I never wrote that down before, the bible did not call me to repentance but God heard my cry and brought me to his word. Before when I had to read the bible I just made fun and didn't care to believe. It wasn't until I felt completely deserted from the world that I felt completely alone and lost, there was nothing anyone could say or do to help, I went through all brands of anti depressants and was falling into habitual abuse of my meds. I remembering asking if it's possible for someone as dead as me to endure and regain strength and live again. Very possible indeed!! :)

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Arsenios

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When I was at my peak of atheism I would have never believed that in a short time I would be on my knees begging God for mercy, that's when I starting reading the bible and opening my eyes, repented and got baptised :)
Wow, I never wrote that down before, the bible did not call me to repentance but God heard my cry and brought me to his word. Before when I had to read the bible I just made fun and didn't care to believe. It wasn't until I felt completely deserted from the world that I felt completely alone and lost, there was nothing anyone could say or do to help, I went through all brands of anti depressants and was falling into habitual abuse of my meds. I remembering asking if it's possible for someone as dead as me to endure and regain strength and live again. Very possible indeed!! :)

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True words spoken by a fellow-former-atheist...
I too scorned the Bible and Christians...
No Christian brought me to God...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Do you imagine you were not guided by God when you were an atheist?

Our God is the God of the Living and of the dead... But the argument here is that God is not the God of the dead... That God has to make you Alive by Justification before you can believe in Him... Yet here the God-less atheist hit rock bottom and then finally in desperation cried out to God, and God had Mercy on Him...

Do you imagine that you stumbled upon God and began begging him for mercy because he was unaware of you? Do you imagine God's sovereign hand was not directing your path? God has always been with you from before your conception to the present moment.

All true...

An atheist was hiking in the woods and was attacked by a large hungry bear who pinned him to the ground and as his teeth were coming down on his face he cried out: "LORD HAVE MERCY ON ME!!!" And all movement stopped, and there was a great silence in which only one Voice was heard: "All these years you denied Me and attacked my followers and now, suddenly, in your hour of desperation you hypocritically call on Me to help you??? Will you become a Christian if I save you from these teeth and confess Me as your God?"

And the atheist was greatly ashamed, for he prided himself on his integrity and was very clever, and knew that Christians to not attack and kill people unless attacked, and even then not always... So he said to God: "Look, I am an atheist... How about we make the hungry bear a God-loving Christian instead?"

And God said: "May it be according to your word..."

And the athiest looked up to see the bear above crossing himself with the Sign of the Cross and saying:
"In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, One God, Amen...
O Lord I thank Thee for the food Thou hast given unto me, Thy servant this day..."

Athiests can be a lot of trouble...

Ex-atheists even more so!

Arsenios
 
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MennoSota

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And neither did you bring yourself to God.
God grabbed you and pulled you out of your own sin. It was all God.
True words spoken by a fellow-former-atheist...
I too scorned the Bible and Christians...
No Christian brought me to God...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Saul was an unrepentant killer of Christians. He did not repent first before God saved him on the road to Damascus.

He repented upon his first encounter with Christ...
He did not know he was doing anything wrong...

You demand a human act before God can act.

That is silly... We can only love God because God loved us first...
Christ intervened with Saul - That was God Calling Saul to repentance from persecuting Christ...
And Saul saw the truth and did an immediate 180, blinded and empty of the Holy Spirit...
And Ananias healed his blindness, and filled him with the Holy Spirit, remember?
He laid his hands on Saul and as it were scales fell from his eyes...
And arising, Ananias Baptized Saul and thereby filled him with the Holy Spirit...

Had Saul returned to persecuting the Followers of the Way, he would have been lost to history and condemned by God...

You are so very, very wrong that it astonishes me to see you miss the mark so badly despite God's word repeatedly expressing the truth that God acts first by adopting and making his children alive in Christ.
Your works theology is considered anathema. The letter to the Galatians condemns your teaching. I pray God will change your heart and lead you to repentance, Arsenios.

Thank-you for your generosity of heart in the above sentiments...

Awhile back, I asked you to pray for me, and now you have responded affirmtively...

I thank God for your change of heart...

Apart from God we can do nothing...

Arsenios
 

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And neither did you bring yourself to God.
God grabbed you and pulled you out of your own sin. It was all God.

AMEN! All glory be to God alone...that's why HE is the Savior :)
 

Arsenios

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And neither did you bring yourself to God.

No one said that I did...

God grabbed you and pulled you out of your own sin.

Actually, I was living an intensely repentant life unto blood resisting sin...

And I got to the point of getting to the bottom of my soul, and finding no answer there...

I had failed at self-cure, and there was no where else to look...

So I was done, and simply knew objectively that my life was over...

I was fine with that - I had given it my best, and I had failed...

There were a few last trials...

Then God came - Three Christmasses in a row...

My encounters with God were from within a purified heart, you see... I told an old-time protestant pastor that and he marvelled... Because all the people he knew encountered God with unpurified hearts... And they were changed, all right, and were believers and all, but they all kept falling back without a sense of directed movement with their sins...

It was all God.

God did not set it up that way for me, sorry...

God does not want you part way - He wants all of you... And you have to be willing to give all to Him... And that means you have to love God with ALL your soul, strength, effort, etc etc... If you sit back and say: "If God wants me to believe in Him and to follow Him, He will see to it, and if not, there is nothing I can do about it..." then you will remain a luke-warm dead fish, neither hot nor cold...

The Call of God is unto Repentance from dead works and overcoming the world...

In that enterprise, God's Grace will abound...

And the Ancient Faith disciples it...

You seem to forbid discipling of any kind until after Salvation (narrow Justification is your term)...

Arsenios
 
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MennoSota

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Arsenios, you and I have never had a purified heart...ever.
Here is what scripture says about your efforts.
Colossians 2:20-23
[20]You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,
[21]“Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?
[22]Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.
[23]These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.

God does it all, Arsenios. If you are attempting to be justified by your works, you have already failed and there is no justification for you. If you are a disciple of Christ, you are found in Christ, not in your own efforts.
No one said that I did...



Actually, I was living an intensely repentant life unto blood resisting sin...

And I got to the point of getting to the bottom of my soul, and finding no answer there...

I had failed at self-cure, and there was no where else to look...

So I was done, and simply knew objectively that my life was over...

I was fine with that - I had given it my best, and I had failed...

There were a few last trials...

Then God came - Three Christmasses in a row...

My encounters with God were from within a purified heart, you see... I told an old-time protestant pastor that and he marvelled... Because all the people he knew encountered God with unpurified hearts... And they were changed, all right, and were believers and all, but they all kept falling back without a sense of directed movement with their sins...



God did not set it up that way for me, sorry...

God does not want you part way - He wants all of you... And you have to be willing to give all to Him... And that means you have to love God with ALL your soul, strength, effort, etc etc... If you sit back and say: "If God wants me to believe in Him and to follow Him, He will see to it, and if not, there is nothing I can do about it..." then you will remain a luke-warm dead fish, neither hot nor cold...

The Call of God is unto Repentance from dead works and overcoming the world...

In that enterprise, God's Grace will abound...

And the Ancient Faith disciples it...

You seem to forbid discipling of any kind until after Salvation (narrow Justification is your term)...

Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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Who does "God grab"? Is God's decision to grab random, like tossing a coin?
 

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And neither did you bring yourself to God.
God grabbed you and pulled you out of your own sin. It was all God.

God did not set it up that way for me, sorry...

Of course God was the one at work to bring you to Him. God is your Father who has been a part of your life since before you were born. He was the one calling you to Him. He was the one who brought His Word to you in various ways even though at times your rejected and even though at times you didn't realize it was Him. He was the one who put believers into your life so that they could share the Gospel with you. He was the one who used the message...the Good News that Jesus died for you and your sins are forgiven so that you could believe and have eternal life. You received all that He has given to you. Yet you still think it wasn't all Him?
 
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