Justification

[MennoSota]

I don't think that your words above are from Ephesians...

Nor are these below:



Here is the text...

Eph 1:14 ὅς ἐστιν ἀρραβὼν τῆς κληρονομίας ἡμῶν, εἰς ἀπολύτρωσιν τῆς περιποιήσεως, εἰς ἔπαινον τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ.

Which is the earnest of our inheritance
unto the redemption of the possession,
unto the praise of His Glory.

No one seems to know what the Gift of God IS...
Eph 2:8
For by Grace are ye Saved through the Faith...
And this not out of yourselves...
Of God the Gift...

What IS this Gift that is Salvation?



Arsenios

I think you don't like the NLT as a translation. That's okay. Am I supposed to be impressed with your pasting of greek text?

Ephesians 2:8-9 shares the gift that God chooses to give to those whom He adopts.
1) The gift of grace (unmerited favor)
2) The gift of faith, which is not generated by our own will, but comes as God's gift to those whom He adopts.
You seem to be tripped up on the idea of salvation.
First, let me establish that all humans are born in rebellion to God. They live in God's created universe, but they are in outright rebellion to God. God, in His mercy grants humans time to be reconciled with Him even though the Bible tells us that none will seek God, not even one. The solution, then, is God choosing to redeem whomsoever He wills and thus remove them from rebellion and place them into His Kingdom as His children. He saves them from the sure and just judgment that will fall upon all who are in rebellion to the King. Thus he has given those whom He chose to adopt the gift of being saved from his sure judgment.
Now...whether you agree with my summary is another thing altogether and is of little relevance to my own person.

 

[MennoSota]

So I can just grab a beer and the remote and some chips and dip and turn on the Game and yell at my wife and kids and beat them when they do not serve me enough? And continue grabbing the waitress too? And demanding my government benefits when I feel bored?

Did not Christ show something different in the parable of the talents?

Arsenios

If you understand grace, you know the answer. If you understand God's work with His children you know the discipline that He exacts upon His children to refine them into His likeness.
I wonder if you have replaced grace with your own pious works, however.

 

[MennoSota]

Well, I quoted: "For by Grace are we Saved through Faith, and that not from ourselves: Of God the Gift." And I asked about this Gift, and how I might obtain it. What can I DO so that it will be GIVEN to me? And your answer is: "You can do absolutely NOTHING to receive this Gift."

I think I asked a fair question... The rest here is in my view a sidestepping of the issue raised...



We have, you see, been over this many times already...



These days, when people ask me how old I am, I like to say that I was 44 in '88! So you are a 30 year old father and husband - I get it...



No question...



"The Lord and Giver of Life" - The life we have is death, but God gives Life...
There is a difference between life and Life...



Those efforts but developed what you were given...



Mine too...



Exactly...



They are very different...



Greatly - I am not confusing the two... I am speaking as a man without Salvation, say having encountered Paul in Athens, and I want to become Illumined and Joy-filled as Paul was... And I ask you, or Paul, what can I DO to receive this Gift of Salvation that YOU have?

And I think you clear answer was: "Nothing..."

I disagree... I would tell me to amend my life by repenting from sin and seek Baptism into Christ...



Back at ya, my Brother!

The Leave-Taking of Pascha is in three weeks...

Christos Anesti!

Arsenios

You sound similar to Simon in your dialogue.
Acts of the Apostles 8:18-23
[18]When Simon saw that the Spirit was given when the apostles laid their hands on people, he offered them money to buy this power.
[19]“Let me have this power, too,” he exclaimed, “so that when I lay my hands on people, they will receive the Holy Spirit!”
[20]But Peter replied, “May your money be destroyed with you for thinking God’s gift can be bought!
[21]You can have no part in this, for your heart is not right with God.
[22]Repent of your wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive your evil thoughts,
[23]for I can see that you are full of bitter jealousy and are held captive by sin.”

 

[hedrick]

No one seems to know what the Gift of God IS...
Eph 2:8
For by Grace are ye Saved through the Faith...
And this not out of yourselves...
Of God the Gift...

What IS this Gift that is Salvation?

In context, being saved (the gift) is being made alive, from when we were dead, following the desires of our flesh, to being alive together with Christ.

This is consistent with Jesus' normal use of the term. He usually uses it to mean changing from "sinners" to followers.

The author says that this happened by (God's) grace, through faith. That would make faith the instrument. Unfortunately not enough is said to be quite clear on how it's the instrument. Perhaps it is what united us with Christ, and thus brought us to life. That would certainly be consistent with the usual Reformed understanding.

Note that current interpreters typically see "this" in vs. 8 that is the gift as referring to the whole clause, i.e. to the salvation that moves us from death to life. It is probably not specifically faith, though if the whole thing is the gift, faith would be included.

"The faith" is the Byzantine text. Not enough evidence that Metzger even bothers commenting on it.

 

[Josiah]

Well, I quoted: "For by Grace are we Saved through Faith, and that not from ourselves: Of God the Gift." And I asked about this Gift, and how I might obtain it. What can I DO so that it will be GIVEN to me? And your answer is: "You can do absolutely NOTHING to receive this Gift."

I think I asked a fair question... The rest here is in my view a sidestepping of the issue raised...

I don't think so. My replied to your question was one word: Nothing. And it wouldn't be a gift if it was a payment/reword instead. The Protestant perspective is that Jesus is the Savior. Thus, the Savior is Jesus (and not self).

I am speaking as a man without Salvation, say having encountered Paul in Athens, and I want to become Illumined and Joy-filled as Paul was... And I ask you, or Paul, what can I DO to receive this Gift of Salvation that YOU have?

If it's a gift, then he's answered his own question.... gifts are simply GIVEN.

Life is GIVEN. Physical and spiritual. "We believe in the Holy Spirit - the Author and GIVER of life."

I would tell me to amend my life by repenting from sin and seek Baptism into Christ...

1. No one can baptize themselves.

2. Repentance is an act of faith and so it cannot be the origin of faith.

3. If the GIFT is rather a REWARD you earned by doing x,y,z.... then Jesus isn't the Savior and His life, death and resurrection were "in vain" as Scripture states. If justification (in the Protestant sense, as you state you understand) is the result of your stuff, then the Savior is you. There are two places we can look for this spiritual coming to life - the Cross or the Mirror. One sees Jesus as the Savior, the other sees self as the Savior.

4. As I tried to stress (but you said I was only "side-stepping") Protestants IN NO WAY dismiss or disregard or diminish the CHRISTIAN's life - we just don't regard self as the Savior (Jesus has that role). What I do with my physical life MATTERS - but it is not what caused me to have life 9 months before I was born. It seemed as though you were trying to imply that Protestants don't care about how Christians live..... we certainly do! We just don't thus reject that God is the GIVER of life, we don't think what we do WITH life is the cause of our COMING to life.

 

[Arsenios]

The violent are those rebels who are against the Kingdom of God and want to stop it from going foward. The violent are NOT those persons who are children of the Sovereign King.
The context of Matthew 11 bears this out.
Matthew 11:7-13
[7]As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began talking about him to the crowds. “What kind of man did you go into the wilderness to see? Was he a weak reed, swayed by every breath of wind?
[8]Or were you expecting to see a man dressed in expensive clothes? No, people with expensive clothes live in palaces.
[9]Were you looking for a prophet? Yes, and he is more than a prophet.
[10]John is the man to whom the Scriptures refer when they say, ‘Look, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, *** and he will prepare your way before you.’
[11]“I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least person in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is!
[12]And from the time John the Baptist began preaching until now, the Kingdom of Heaven has been forcefully advancing, and violent people are attacking it.

Well, no wonder we are missing each other here -

Either you have a radical mis-translation of the text of vs [12] in Matthew 11...
Or else it is I who am radically being misled by a bad translation...
I was simply doing a KJV derivative...
Perhaps we can do a literal:

ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν ᾿Ιωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι
From the days of John the Baptist until now

ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται,
the Kingdom of the Heavens is being siezed

καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν.
and the siezers are taking it by force.

Who can sieze the Kingdom of Heaven except by repentance?
John's very Gospel: "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"
We SIEZE with our HANDS...
Christ IS the Kingdom of Heaven, incarnate with John...
Siezing is by repentance...

I do not think he is talking about persecution of the Kingdom at all...
Because Christ had not yet been persecuted to that time...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You sound similar to Simon ... for your heart is not right with God.
... you are full of bitter jealousy and are held captive by sin.”

This is not responsive nor is it helpful...

Arsenios

 

[hedrick]

I would tell me to amend my life by repenting from sin and seek Baptism into Christ...

1. No one can baptize themselves.
2. Repentance is an act of faith and so it cannot be the origin of faith.
3. If the GIFT is rather a REWARD you earned by doing x,y,z.... then Jesus isn't the Savior...
4. As I tried to stress (but you said I was only "side-stepping") Protestants IN NO WAY dismiss or disregard or diminish the CHRISTIAN's life

There are two perspectives. On the one hand, Arsenios is quite right. Someone who is without salvation should, in fact, repent from sin and seek baptism into Christ. However in the broader perspective -- which we typically understand only after having done what Arsenios suggests -- we realize that we do that only because Christ has already died for us, and called us to repent and become followers. Without us having done anything.

It's the second part that we see in Eph 2, that we are saved through faith as a gift of God. But salvation is an actual change in us, from being outside of Christ to being his follower.

 

[MennoSota]

Well, no wonder we are missing each other here -

Either you have a radical mis-translation of the text of vs [12] in Matthew 11...
Or else it is I who am radically being misled by a bad translation...
I was simply doing a KJV derivative...
Perhaps we can do a literal:

ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν ᾿Ιωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι
From the days of John the Baptist until now

ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται,
the Kingdom of the Heavens is being siezed

καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν.
and the siezers are taking it by force.

Who can sieze the Kingdom of Heaven except by repentance?
John's very Gospel: "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"
We SIEZE with our HANDS...
Christ IS the Kingdom of Heaven, incarnate with John...
Siezing is by repentance...

I do not think he is talking about persecution of the Kingdom at all...
Because Christ had not yet been persecuted to that time...

Arsenios

The context around the verse gives us the answer. Rebels are violently attempting to destroy the Kingdom of God.
You are mistaken in your understanding as you have looked only at the one statement and then create a theory around it. This is a common mistake of those seeking a prooftext for their pretext without context.
From Genesis to Revelation we see humanity in rebellion against God. We see them killing the children of God in an attempt to wrestle control from the Sovereign King of the universe. The Sovereign King will not be overthrown. Instead God tells us that the Kingdom of God marches forward so that the gates of hell will not be able to withstand its progress.
I suggest you review your faulty grasp of Matthew 11.

 

[MennoSota]

This is not responsive nor is it helpful...

Arsenios

But it may be accurate.
You have asked questions that cause a person to wonder if you understand God's grace apart from works. You seem to desire to buy the Spirit by your actions rather than accept that the Spirit is given as a Gift from God apart from anything you could possibly do.

 

[hedrick]

The context around the verse gives us the answer. Rebels are violently attempting to destroy the Kingdom of God.
You are mistaken in your understanding as you have looked only at the one statement and then create a theory around it. This is a common mistake of those seeking a prooftext for their pretext without context.
From Genesis to Revelation we see humanity in rebellion against God. We see them killing the children of God in an attempt to wrestle control from the Sovereign King of the universe. The Sovereign King will not be overthrown. Instead God tells us that the Kingdom of God marches forward so that the gates of hell will not be able to withstand its progress.
I suggest you review your faulty grasp of Matthew 11.

Folks, no one should be too confident that they understand what "by force" means here. The Hermeneia commentary notes:

"The original meaning of the “violence saying” that follows is one of the greatest riddles of the exegesis of the Synoptics. More than eighty years ago Harnack wrote: “There are few sayings of Jesus over which such a flood of explanations has been poured in various combinations and whose understanding still has remained so uncertain.” That is still true today."

I understand those who do violence to the Kingdom and steal it as being those who opposed John, killed him, and are also opposing Jesus. This would be the political and religious establishment of the day. Heremenia and the Word commentary both take it this way. Note that the violence needn't be understood as all directed at Jesus. Jesus was concerned about the violent tendencies in Israel's response to Rome, as we see in several passages.

 

[Arsenios]

In context, being saved (the gift) is being made alive, from when we were dead, following the desires of our flesh, to being alive together with Christ.

This is consistent with Jesus' normal use of the term.
He usually uses it to mean changing from "sinners" to followers.

I think it is much more radical, for he is speaking of from death to Life, and not simply living a religious life, but the acquisition of Life in Christ, meaning becoming a member of His Body - A radically New Creation never seen in Creation prior to Christ's Life on earth in human flesh... Entered by Baptism INTO Christ...

The author says that this happened by (God's) grace, through (the) Faith (of Christ). That would make faith the instrument.

Yes, the Faith is the means of the acquisition of God's Grace, BY which (dative of agency) we are given the Gift... The question I keep repeating, and no one seems to have any idea of its import, is what exactly IS this Gift of Salvation?

Unfortunately not enough is said to be quite clear on how it's the instrument.

If you place the article before pistews, [διὰ τῆς πίστεως] and translate it "through the Faith (which Christ discipled to His Apostles) then it is utterly clear... It means the apostolic Faith of Christ...

Perhaps it is what united us with Christ, and thus brought us to life. That would certainly be consistent with the usual Reformed understanding.

It is indeed, but the Reformation does not understand the Ekklesia to BE Christ in any real way...

Note that current interpreters typically see "this" in vs. 8 that is the gift as referring to the whole clause, i.e. to the salvation that moves us from death to life. It is probably not specifically faith, though if the whole thing is the gift, faith would be included.

Yes - It refers to the whole clause...

"The faith" is the Byzantine text.

And the Greek, and the Russian, and the Bulgarian, and the Serbian, and the Alexandrian, and and...

Not enough evidence that Metzger even bothers commenting on it.

Which condemns Metzger's understanding of this issue...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

There are two perspectives. On the one hand, Arsenios is quite right. Someone who is without salvation should, in fact, repent from sin and seek baptism into Christ. However in the broader perspective -- which we typically understand only after having done what Arsenios suggests -- we realize that we do that only because Christ has already died for us, and called us to repent and become followers. Without us having done anything.

I'd stress that we often have MYSTERY.... and sometimes that involves the reality that we can only "see" from the perspective of time, space, etc. Yes, the DEAD should do things... and yes, God calls on the DEAD to do things. But of course, the DEAD are pretty limited in what THEY can do. But God is the Life-Giver, God GIVES life... and with that His Spirit.... and then we have a new reality: the LIVING living.

"Repentance" in my view is not the same as "remorse." Yes, those spiritually DEAD can feel remorse (even your dog feels that, lol). But REPENTANCE involves knowing we have offended God and turning to God, looking to God for forgiveness. This is not something the DEAD do. Thus, I'd be careful about making the "kai" (repent AND be baptized) into dogmatic chronology to which God is subject. God puts these thigns together.... God does these things.... God gives life.... God saves. I hesitate to put God in a box and insist HE must do things in this order and in that way cuz it makes sense to me.

I believe that baptism is both a command and a blessing. Yes, there is an occasion when people are told to "BE (passive) baptized." And I believe baptism can be regenerative and a means of grace. But again, this is not something the DEAD do for self; I belive that GOD does the baptizing, via the hands of the church (the family of believers) - thus this is not a good work that the DEAD do so that the DEAD won't be dead anymore [MennoSota - leave this alone; it's not the topic here]

Yes, I agree, Ephesians 2:8 notes that Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide is "the gift of God." God does this. God gives this. God is the Savior. To quote Billy Graham (not a Lutheran, lol), "We can't cause ourselves to be born again any more than we caused ourselves to be born the first time." Or to quote the ancient Creed, "We believe in the Holy Spirit - the Author and GIVER of life." IF the Dead doing x,y,z is what is the cause of their gaining life, then they wouldn't have a "gift" at all. If spiritual life is the result of the spiritually dead DOING x,y,z.... then Jesus isn't the Savior, and there is no gift. The Dead did things that saved themselves (and Jesus was in vain).


I hope that helps.


- Josiah



.

 

[Arsenios]

Folks, no one should be too confident that they understand what "by force" means here. The Hermeneia commentary notes:

The text states that it is being siezed... Harpazo - The base we use for the English word "harpoon"...
Siezure is normally by the hands...

"Whom we have touched with our hands" [John's words]
Christ suffered Himself to be gazed upon and touched...

"The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"
That is the Good News...
AND...
There is something you can DO about it:
"Repent and be Baptized!"

If the Reformation cannot embrace these holy words, it needs a fundamental re-think...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But it may be accurate.
You have asked questions that cause a person to wonder if you understand God's grace apart from works. You seem to desire to buy the Spirit by your actions rather than accept that the Spirit is given as a Gift from God apart from anything you could possibly do.

That is only because I have not yet given the understanding that is missing...

However, the Parable of the 10 Virgins does tell the 5 foolish ones to go and buy oil in the market, and this means to purchase Grace, by the giving of alms... Christ tells the rich young man to do the same: "Go, sell all you have, and give to the poor, and you will have great treasure in heaven, then come, and follow Me..." My question to you is: Was this man justified?

So I will stop hiding the understanding which I hold in my treasury of the Ancient Faith of Christ...

The Gift of God
given by the Grace of God
through the Faith of God
is God Himself.

We are Baptized into this Faith and into Christ following repentance unto Baptism, and then we run the race overcoming opposing principalities to gain Christ ever more and more completely... This is done in His Body as members of His Body, and apart from that Body few are those who do so... Cornelius came close, perhaps did so, but then was Baptized into Christ...

This is why we are enjoined to move unto perfection - eg becoming fully matured - in the Faith Christ gave us, for in this we will come fully to right relationship with God - eg Righteousness before God...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, the Faith is the means of the acquisition of God's Grace, BY which (dative of agency) we are given the Gift... The question I keep repeating, and no one seems to have any idea of its import, is what exactly IS this Gift of Salvation?

You teach what the Bible does not teach.
Faith is not the "means of the acquisition of God's grace."
That statement is utterly wrong and opposed to scripture. You are preaching salvation by works apart from grace. Your teaching says that you get the "gift" by your own virtue and manufacturing your own faith. Your statement is, as Paul writes, anathema.
The answer regarding salvation has been answered. You simply reject the answer given and then claim no one has answered. Do you often play this game of deceit?

 

[Arsenios]

You are mistaken in your ... seeking a prooftext for (your) pretext without (a) context.

Thank-you for being helpful...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You teach what the Bible does not teach...
Do you often play this game of deceit?

Are you offended by my words?
Would you please forgive me them?
Will you please pray for me?

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

That is only because I have not yet given the understanding that is missing...

However, the Parable of the 10 Virgins does tell the 5 foolish ones to go and buy oil in the market, and this means to purchase Grace, by the giving of alms... Christ tells the rich young man to do the same: "Go, sell all you have, and give to the poor, and you will have great treasure in heaven, then come, and follow Me..." My question to you is: Was this man justified?

So I will stop hiding the understanding which I hold in my treasury of the Ancient Faith of Christ...

The Gift of God
given by the Grace of God
through the Faith of God
is God Himself.

We are Baptized into this Faith and into Christ following repentance unto Baptism, and then we run the race overcoming opposing principalities to gain Christ ever more and more completely... This is done in His Body as members of His Body, and apart from that Body few are those who do so... Cornelius came close, perhaps did so, but then was Baptized into Christ...

This is why we are enjoined to move unto perfection - eg becoming fully matured - in the Faith Christ gave us, for in this we will come fully to right relationship with God - eg Righteousness before God...

Arsenios

It is best for me to acknowledge that you have no concept of God's grace. I read your comments and it becomes clear you have a poor grasp of hermeneutics as you make up whatever fills your itching ear and convince yourself that you will win your own salvation so that God must be pleased with you.
I want no part in such legalism and separation from grace. Your teaching is what Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians. Please teach your false gospel elsewhere.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A reminder from the thread starter

"It may be interesting to have a calm and well reasoned discussion about these ideas and their sources in holy scripture as well as in the development of theology in Christian thought. If you're interested in such a discussion come on board and start. I will post some material from Catholic sources as the discussion goes along. I think I may be the only actively posting Catholic on CH so do not expect me to deal with everything that my Protestant (and other) brethren have to say about their own views nor to answer every objection that some Protestant traditions have raised against Catholic views (or alleged Catholic views).

If you want a polemic discussion about Justification and why this or that view is all wrong and evil then please don't raise polemics in this thread - start a different thread for that if you want to but leave this one for civil and respectful discussion.

God be with you all. And may we have a fruitful discussion."