Justification

[Arsenios]

Because the Bible insists that those outside of Christ are DEAD, I disagree with your soteriology that the Dead give life to self, save self - and thus need no Jesus, no mercy, no salvation - just sufficient help and time (making Jesus "in vain" as Scripture states).

"If ANY is willing after Me to be following, let him first deny himself..."

Christ's own words... The living dead are not inert, and the dead in Christ who are Living are not without Grace...

But He says: "IF ANY IS WILLING..." [in Matthew - ei tis thelei] So that your idea that the dead to Christ are unable to be so willing to follow Christ seems contraindicated BY Christ...

Points of conversion, the Call of God, is a big topic...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I disagree with your soteriology that the Dead give life to self, save self
- Josiah

Self is a big topic -

Denial of Self is the first Commandment of following Christ...

Selflessness is a fundamental Christian virtue...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Also obvious is that "spiritually dead" people are human beings. The "spiritually dead" are not corpses devoid of heartbeat, electrical activity in the brain, and all the other signs of life that a doctor (whether he is Christian or "spiritually dead" himself) uses to check for life.

Ephesians 2:1 You were dead, through faults and sins. 2 Once, you lived according them, according to this world, and followed the sovereign ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires. By ourselves, we went straight to the judgement, like the rest of humankind. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, revealed his immense love. 5 As we were dead through our sins, he gave us life, with Christ. By grace, you have been saved! 6 And he raised us to life, with Christ, giving us a place with him in heaven. 7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.​

"Spiritually dead" Ephesians who became Christians and "alive in Christ" were able to live according to this world and follow the ruler of who resist the faith. The passage quoted above doesn't pretend that "spiritually dead" people are incapable of doing anything. What their death signifies is that they are not alive in Christ. Not that they are dead and incapable of thought, action, purpose and so forth.

John 10:26-30
[26]But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep.
[27]My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
[28]I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,
[29]for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.
[30]The Father and I are one.”

 

[MennoSota]

"If ANY is willing after Me to be following, let him first deny himself..."

Christ's own words... The living dead are not inert, and the dead in Christ who are Living are not without Grace...

But He says: "IF ANY IS WILLING..." [in Matthew - ei tis thelei] So that your idea that the dead to Christ are unable to be so willing to follow Christ seems contraindicated BY Christ...

Points of conversion, the Call of God, is a big topic...

Arsenios

Romans 3:10-20
[10]As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— *** not even one.
[11]No one is truly wise; *** no one is seeking God.
[12]All have turned away; *** all have become useless. No one does good, *** not a single one.”
[13]“Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. *** Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.” ***
[14]“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
[15]“They rush to commit murder. ***
[16]Destruction and misery always follow them.
[17]They don’t know where to find peace.” ***
[18]“They have no fear of God at all.”
[19]Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God.
[20]For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

 

[MennoSota]

Self is a big topic -

Denial of Self is the first Commandment of following Christ...

Selflessness is a fundamental Christian virtue...

Arsenios

Galatians 2:19-21
[19]For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God.
[20]My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
[21]I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Self is a big topic -

Denial of Self is the first Commandment of following Christ...

Selflessness is a fundamental Christian virtue...

Arsenios

The idea in the post to which you replied is in error. No one in this thread is teaching "salvation by self". That such was suggested is a sign of polemics taking pride of place above truth. The quote from the council of Trent is clear. No person has anything to give to God no "self actuated" step towards salvation exists yet every Christian makes choices that bring them into earthly communion with Christ and eventual heavenly communion with him if they persist in faith and the good works to which God calls Christians.

Nevertheless the theory that being "spiritually dead" means being unable to "perform any spiritual good" is a distinctly Protestant one - it is the "Total depravity" part of the acrostic TULIP - arising from the thinking of some of the Protestant reformers. Catholic teaching is that grace is given by God to the fallen and to the spiritually dead to bring life and hope of final union with Christ and reception of eternal life in communion with Christ at the last judgement. The council of Trent wrote first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam - having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin, - they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them.

 

[MennoSota]

The idea in the post to which you replied is in error. No one in this thread is teaching "salvation by self". That such was suggested is a sign of polemics taking pride of place above truth. The quote from the council of Trent is clear. No person has anything to give to God no "self actuated" step towards salvation exists yet every Christian makes choices that bring them into earthly communion with Christ and eventual heavenly communion with him if they persist in faith and the good works to which God calls Christians.

Nevertheless the theory that being "spiritually dead" means being unable to "perform any spiritual good" is a distinctly Protestant one - it is the "Total depravity" part of the acrostic TULIP - arising from the thinking of some of the Protestant reformers. Catholic teaching is that grace is given by God to the fallen and to the spiritually dead to bring life and hope of final union with Christ and reception of eternal life in communion with Christ at the last judgement. The council of Trent wrote first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam - having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin, - they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them.

If you are spiritually dead, how can you do spiritual good or spiritual bad?
If a rebel is not reconciled to God, s/he cannot be spiritually alive (unless you think Ephesians 2:1-10 is false) therefore there is no spiritual activity, for good or for bad.

 

[Arsenios]

I disagree with your soteriology that the Dead give life to self, save self
- Josiah

Self is a big topic -

Denial of Self is the first Commandment of following Christ...

Selflessness is a fundamental Christian virtue...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you are spiritually dead, how can you do spiritual good or spiritual bad?

Ephesians 2:2-3 says that these "spiritually dead" people manage to do "spiritual bad". 2 Once, you lived according them, according to this world, and followed the sovereign ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires. You're statement is obviously not correct. It contradicts what Ephesians 2:2-3 says.

 

[MennoSota]

Ephesians 2:2-3 says that these "spiritually dead" people manage to do "spiritual bad". 2 Once, you lived according them, according to this world, and followed the sovereign ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires. You're statement is obviously not correct. It contradicts what Ephesians 2:2-3 says.

Ephesians 2:1-6
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
[4]But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
[5]that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
[6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.

The passage is talking about why we were spiritually dead. Our spiritual death is caused by our sin nature. That means we did legally bad stuff. Stuff that broke God's moral law.

 

[hedrick]

If you are spiritually dead, how can you do spiritual good or spiritual bad?
If a rebel is not reconciled to God, s/he cannot be spiritually alive (unless you think Ephesians 2:1-10 is false) therefore there is no spiritual activity, for good or for bad.

I don't think that's what Eph 2 means. Someone who is dead is stuck in their sins. I don't see any suggestion that they are actually missing part of their makeup, the spirit, or that the spirit is somehow asleep. Rather, it is bound. That is, I understand "dead" as a metaphor.

 

[MennoSota]

I don't think that's what Eph 2 means. Someone who is dead is stuck in their sins. I don't see any suggestion that they are actually missing part of their makeup, the spirit, or that the spirit is somehow asleep. Rather, it is bound. That is, I understand "dead" as a metaphor.

They, we, were dead in their, our, spirit. Our sin narure made us dead. This is precisely why no one can seek God. Dead spirits cannot decide to seek God.
This is also why God must make us alive. There is no other route. No other option.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The passage is talking about why we were spiritually dead. Our spiritual death is caused by our sin nature. That means we did legally bad stuff. Stuff that broke God's moral law.

What you say about Ephesians 2:2-3 is not true. It's just a falsehood to pretend that the passage does not say that "spiritually dead" people sin. It obviously and clearly says that such people do sin. And sin is a "spiritual bad" so what you claimed before about "spiritually dead" people is a falsehood that directly contradicts what the passage says. Ephesians 2:2 Once, you lived according them, according to this world, and followed the sovereign ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires.

 

[MennoSota]

What you say about Ephesians 2:2-3 is not true. It's just a falsehood to pretend that the passage does not say that "spiritually dead" people sin. It obviously and clearly says that such people do sin. And sin is a "spiritual bad" so what you claimed before about "spiritually dead" people is a falsehood that directly contradicts what the passage says. Ephesians 2:2 Once, you lived according them, according to this world, and followed the sovereign ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires.

People sin. That's why they are spiritually dead. This is what Ephesians 2:1-4 describes.

 

[MoreCoffee]

People sin. That's why they are spiritually dead. This is what Ephesians 2:1-4 describes.

You need to retract the statement made here because it is false.

 

[MennoSota]

You need to retract the statement made here because it is false.

I am not wrong. Here I stand, I can do no other.

 

[Josiah]

"If ANY is willing after Me to be following, let him first deny himself..."

Christ's own words... The living dead are not inert, and the dead in Christ who are Living are not without Grace...

But He says: "IF ANY IS WILLING..." [in Matthew - ei tis thelei] So that your idea that the dead to Christ are unable to be so willing to follow Christ seems contraindicated BY Christ...

Points of conversion, the Call of God, is a big topic...

Arsenios

The Dead don't follow Christ. They CANNOT believe, CANNOT hear, CANNOT follow.

"Following" is - by definition - sanctification (another subject for another day and thread). Yes, believers can follow Jesus. The living can live, the dead cannot.




In terms of Justification (narrow), Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. If it has to do with salvation, then Jesus does it. It's a gift, an inheritance. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.


IF you answer "me!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR choices. YOUR accomplishment. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. If it has to do with salvation, then you do it. Reward. Payment. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. (And it is deceptive to refer to Jesus as the Savior if He's not).

Is the Savior the one on the Cross or the one in the mirror?

Which is it? Try answering that. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. If you give the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist answer, Christianity is destroyed and (as the Bible states) Jesus is in vain.

Ain't rocket science.




A blessed Easter season to all....


- Josiah





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[Arsenios]

The Dead don't follow Christ. They CANNOT believe, CANNOT hear, CANNOT follow.

So was Christ mistaken when He said in Matthew 16:24 "ei tis thelei" (If anyone is willing...) to follow Me...??

I mean, He says exactly this... The willingness is all that is needed, and is a part of the condition of fallen human existence that man must take up... Or not...

This is why the fall of Adam is so crucial to understand - The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of both Good AND evil is what we are here dealing with in creation and our selves... We do not have Life until we draw nigh unto Christ, but we CAN be willing to follow Christ if we so choose, even if the power to effectively choose is so weakened in us, as it is, that it is Christ Himself Who has to provide it for us...

So created and fallen man in this fallen creation HAS Good in him, and has evil in him - And his job as a man on this earth is to choose the Good and expel the evil... To deny himself, that he should take up his cross and follow Christ... And IF he does so, Christ will meet him more than half way... As did the Father with the Prodigal Son...

"Following" is - by definition - sanctification (another subject for another day and thread).

Sanctification is the saturation of the Holy Spirit...

Yes, believers can follow Jesus. The living can live, the dead cannot.

The dead can deny themselves and take up their cross... Christ said so in Matthew 16:24...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Answer this: WHO is the Savior?

God is the Savior...

IF you answer "Jesus"

You said it!

then Jesus is the Savior.

Hooray!!! We agree!!

Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. If it has to do with salvation, then Jesus does it. It's a gift, an inheritance. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

I am glad you understand that...

Can I get you a calmative??

IF you answer "me!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR choices. YOUR accomplishment. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. If it has to do with salvation, then you do it. Reward. Payment. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. (And it is deceptive to refer to Jesus as the Savior if He's not).[/quote]

I do need to get you a calmative!

Is the Savior the one on the Cross or the one in the mirror?

He is that dead and bloody Jew on the Cross...

Which is it? Try answering that. If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. If you give the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist answer, Christianity is destroyed and (as the Bible states) Jesus is in vain.

I have never given a different answer -

But Jesus does not save you against your will...

YOU are the only questionable factor in your own Salvation in Christ...

The discipling of the Nations is all about YOU DOING what is needed in the Household of God for your Salvation...
Because God set up the Ekonomia of Salvation in His Ekklesia, the Church, the Body of the Living God...

Ain't rocket science.

'Tain't worldly neither!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

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