Justification

[Arsenios]

Yes, the DEAD should do things... and yes, God calls on the DEAD to do things. But of course, the DEAD are pretty limited in what THEY can do. But God is the Life-Giver, God GIVES life... and with that His Spirit.... and then we have a new reality: the LIVING living.

I think it is important to keep context with the Fall of Adam, who ate of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of BOTH Good and evil, located in the center of the Garden... And he died the day he ate of it, as God foretold would happen if he ate... And it is this death that we are born into... And in it, we can do good and we can do evil, and our hearts are a gross mixture of the two... Yet sin is an action we can take or avoid taking in most cases... We can lie and we can tell the truth, and on and on... So this living death that we endure in fallen creation is a mixture of Good and evil... And the way we live it will determine our eternal life... Living worthily is a good thing even if we never hear of the Christian Faith...

But what happens when one lives a radically Good-choosing life is the attraction of the Grace of God, and in the Old Testament times, that meant Salvation in the Holy Spirit, with deeds of great Power... Few found this path... After Christ, those called to Him are Baptized into Christ and as babes in the Faith of Christ they progress through the lives they live unto more and more purification of the Heart from evil, leaving only what is Good therein, and awaiting the Grace of God in puriity of heart... Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God... When God encounters a person with a purified heart, the result is the making of a holy person... When God encounters a person who has not yet purified his heart all that much, the result is a believing person, at least for awhile... Repentance is the purification of the heart in deeds of repentance from the evils that abound in every man's heart... Paul wrote: "We are holding the Faith in a purified conscience." The word for purified is catharizo - And it means 'purged'...

So free will only applies in this fallen life we now live, and it CAN embrace either Good or evil, or both in varying degrees... And all this according to the person living the life... And not according to circumstances...

What I normally see is that because the Call of God is so Holy, people outside the Faith who receive it think that they have already been given Salvation... They encounter the Holy Spirit, as did Cornelius, or Christ as did Paul, and instead of fleeing to the Apostolic Faith and getting Baptism, they think they do not need it, because they have encountered God, which I am fairly sure that they have... It is thought that a Spiritual Divine Encounter IS Salvation... And there very well may be cases where it is... God is not limited by our understanding of Him...

But as Christ established the Ekonomie of Salvation in the Household of the Ekklesia, He commanded His Apostles to Go and disciple all the nations, baptizing and teaching them... And this they did... And thereby His Holy Body, the Ekklesia, grew large upon the earth... And it still exists to this day and hour...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

It is best for me to acknowledge that you have no concept of God's grace. I read your comments and it becomes clear you have a poor grasp of hermeneutics as you make up whatever fills your itching ear and convince yourself that you will win your own salvation so that God must be pleased with you.
I want no part in such legalism and separation from grace. Your teaching is what Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians. Please teach your false gospel elsewhere.

Please forgive me for offending you, my Brother...
Please pray for me...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

It is best for me to acknowledge that you have no concept of God's grace. I read your comments and it becomes clear you have a poor grasp of hermeneutics as you make up whatever fills your itching ear and convince yourself that you will win your own salvation so that God must be pleased with you.
I want no part in such legalism and separation from grace. Your teaching is what Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians. Please teach your false gospel elsewhere.

It is more helpful to actually engage the text, my Brother...
Vituperation is but distractive...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

A reminder from the thread starter

"It may be interesting to have a calm and well reasoned discussion about these ideas and their sources in holy scripture as well as in the development of theology in Christian thought. If you're interested in such a discussion come on board and start. I will post some material from Catholic sources as the discussion goes along. I think I may be the only actively posting Catholic on CH so do not expect me to deal with everything that my Protestant (and other) brethren have to say about their own views nor to answer every objection that some Protestant traditions have raised against Catholic views (or alleged Catholic views).

If you want a polemic discussion about Justification and why this or that view is all wrong and evil then please don't raise polemics in this thread - start a different thread for that if you want to but leave this one for civil and respectful discussion.

God be with you all. And may we have a fruitful discussion."

Thank-you for this welcome reminder...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

I think it is important to keep context with the Fall of Adam And he died the day he ate of it, as God foretold would happen if he ate... And it is this death that we are born into...

Adam died SPIRITUALLY the moment he ate the fruit. He didn't die PHYSICALLY for many years after that.

Yes, we too are born DEAD. Spiritual orphans. Spiritually DEAD. And generally speaking, the DEAD can't do much. Oh, we are alive in the body (sort of) so we an do things.... kind of zombies (lol) but spiritually, it aint good. A zombie might do something "good" in a civil sense (and yeah, that counts in a civil sense) but he can't make himself alive and without faith it is impossible to please God (in a spiritual sense).

Of course, God can GIVE life. Which makes it a GIFT. HIS doing.

And in it, we can do good and we can do evil, and our hearts are a gross mixture of the two... Yet sin is an action we can take or avoid taking in most cases... We can lie and we can tell the truth, and on and on... So this living death that we endure in fallen creation is a mixture of Good and evil... And the way we live it will determine our eternal life... Living worthily is a good thing even if we never hear of the Christian Faith...

The DEAD can physically do things that please man.... Buddhists can walk little ole ladies across the street same as a Christian. But "without faith it is impossible to please God." But in the context of our conversation, there's a much more fundamental point: If DEAD self saves self by successfully doing all kinds of requirements for such, then self saved self. The Savior then is self. And the way salvation came about was by self earning it by the works of self. And Jesus then is..... how does Scripture put it? In vain. He's NOT the Savior (and intellectual honestly would mandate that He is not called that) - self is. And the Spirit is NOT the Giver of life (and intellectual honesty would mandate we don't say He is).

Again, I'm BY NO MEANS saying that goody-goodiness is worthless.... I'm only saying it doesn't make us the Savior, it has nothing to do with justification (in the protestant sense) or else it is impossible for Jesus to be the Savior, the Cross and the Tomb would be meaningless, Jesus would be in vain... and Christianity would be essentially no different than all the other religions.

But what happens when one lives a radically Good-choosing life

... it proves he is alive, and who is the GIVER of Life?

"Without faith, it is impossible to please God."

The Pharisees probably had a "good-choosing" material, earthly life as any: Jesus didn't claim they thus were justified and didn't need God or Christ or forgiveness or justification....

After Christ, those called to Him are Baptized into Christ and as babes in the Faith of Christ they progress through the lives they live unto more and more purification of the Heart from evil, leaving only what is Good therein, and awaiting the Grace of God in puriity of heart...

While you worded that like an Orthodox Christian and not a Protestant Christian, that's pretty much what we believe. But we call that Sanctification (narrow sense) and that would be a different topic for a different thread. YES, absolutely YES, CHRISTIANS - those IN CHRIST, those who have been given life, those who are alive, those with the empowering/directing Holy Spirit, those who are justified "progress" (mature is the word Protestants are apt to use).

The only part where I disagree with you is that I don't think ANYONE is absolutely "pure in heart". I agree with Paul, "no one does good, not even one." "I am the Chief of sinners." We live our spiritual lives on earth as forgiven sinners, BUT I too would stress - we are called to higher things, we are empowered/directed to greater things. "One thing I do, I forget what lies behind and strain forward....." We are called and empowered to grow... but we always live under the wings of His mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God... When God encounters a person with a purified heart, the result is the making of a holy person... When God encounters a person who has not yet purified his heart all that much, the result is a believing person, at least for awhile... Repentance is the purification of the heart in deeds of repentance from the evils that abound in every man's heart... Paul wrote: "We are holding the Faith in a purified conscience." The word for purified is catharizo - And it means 'purged'...

Protestants believe that is God's doing, it is His application of mercy, it is the result of FORGIVENESS... and not the result of our becoming as holy as God is, as loving as God is, as righteous as God is, our ALWAYS "hitting the mark" in EVERYTHING God wills/desires.

So free will only applies in this fallen life we now live, and it CAN embrace either Good or evil, or both in varying degrees...

I disagree. The Dead have no will. The "will" the Dead have only applies to secular/worldly things before people. The unbeliever can "will" to help a little old lady across the street, but he cannot will himself to life, he cannot will himself to justification and heaven.

Again, if Jesus is the Savior then the Savior is Jesus and not us. If we are saved by what Jesus did/does, then we are saved by what Jesus did/does (because He is the Savior) - and thus not by what we do. BUT once justified, once given life, once alive - we CAN live, and we are to live - Christ like and for the Life Giver. One cannot earn a gift (or it's not a gift).... one cannot achieve an inheritance (or it's not an inheritance)... the dead can't choose to come alive (physically or spiritually).



I hope that helps.

 

[Pedrito]

Josiah in Post #3:

Lutherans teach that justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable doctrine...

Sola Gratia (Grace Alone) ... Solus Christus (Christ Alone) ... Sola Fide (Faith Alone).

I seem to remember some emphasis being placed elsewhere on "baptism doth also now save us".

Is my recollection faulty?

 

[Arsenios]

Josiah in Post #3:

I seem to remember some emphasis being placed elsewhere on "baptism doth also now save us".

Is my recollection faulty?

Not that I recall...

Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

Once upon a time, a spiritually blind and dead god-hater with literally nothing to live for except killing ‘them’ before they killed him, encountered the reality that the God he had been raised to believe was a fairy-tale (and life had confirmed was at best impotent and indifferent and a worst was some sort of sadistic monster) ... actually existed. This all-powerful God then communicated a simple message to the violent nihilist. God proposed an even trade: everything that the god-hater had for everything that God had. His imminent death, for God’s new life. His constant rage, for God’s peace. His hopelessness, for God’s hope. His dark past, for God’s bright future. On and on the list went. A “gentlemen’s agreement” between the created and the Creator ... all for all. On that day, he left behind his old life and surrendered who he was; suddenly becoming someone else and beginning a new life and literally selling his soul to God. The nihilist died and a new Christian was born.

That is salvation to me.
(So talk of what I DID, or going back to drinking my beer & beating my wife, are both equally meaningless nonsense to me.)

 

[Josiah]

Josiah in Post #3: I seem to remember some emphasis being placed elsewhere on "baptism doth also now save us" Is my recollection faulty?

Seems so. In any case, whether God GIVES mediately or immediate (via means or not) is entirely irrelevant to my point here that God GIVES.



- Josiah



.

 

[MennoSota]

Please forgive me for offending you, my Brother...
Please pray for me...

Arsenios

It is not me that needs to forgive you. It is the God who chooses to give grace without looking at your merit with which you must concern yourself.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Once upon a time, a spiritually blind and dead god-hater with literally nothing to live for except killing ‘them’ before they killed him, encountered the reality that the God he had been raised to believe was a fairy-tale (and life had confirmed was at best impotent and indifferent and a worst was some sort of sadistic monster) ... actually existed. This all-powerful God then communicated a simple message to the violent nihilist. God proposed an even trade: everything that the god-hater had for everything that God had. His imminent death, for God’s new life. His constant rage, for God’s peace. His hopelessness, for God’s hope. His dark past, for God’s bright future. On and on the list went. A “gentlemen’s agreement” between the created and the Creator ... all for all. On that day, he left behind his old life and surrendered who he was; suddenly becoming someone else and beginning a new life and literally selling his soul to God. The nihilist died and a new Christian was born.

That is salvation to me.
(So talk of what I DID, or going back to drinking my beer & beating my wife, are both equally meaningless nonsense to me.)

Obviously "spiritually dead" people can think, speak, walk, write, and grieve as well as feel sorry and resolve to change. It is also obvious that "spiritually dead" people are not actually dead.

 

[Albion]

Obviously "spiritually dead" people can think, speak, walk, write, and grieve as well as feel sorry and resolve to change.

Not necessarily. That is a whole 'nother discussion in itself.

 

[Josiah]

Obviously "spiritually dead" people can think, speak, walk, write, and grieve as well as feel sorry and resolve to change. It is also obvious that "spiritually dead" people are not actually dead.

The Bible says they are and I believe that. Physically alive, spiritually dead. Your dog can think, bark, walk, grieve - indeed can do some things better than you, but I doubt he can justify himself or give life to himself anymore than you can. Just because creatures can move doesn't make them spiritually alive.

The creed says that God is the Lord and GIVER of life. Given the context, I don't think that's limited to physical life so that cockroaches and humans are blessed identically via Christ, I think the context of that is SPIRITUAL life. IF the Creed is correct, then those having not been GIVEN life must not have it.... and those who have it were GIVEN that by God. But maybe the Creed is wrong.

But, as a popular Catholic, you are conveying an important point. To many Catholics, no one NEEDS saving and thus a Savior..... "I'm okay, you're okay" is the theology of man. All any creature that an move needs is a little HELP. He needs a HELPER. And that, in popular Catholic soteriology, is what is offered. As our Catholic teachers taught us, "Jesus opened the gate to heaven for you but YOU have to get YOURSELF through it by what YOU do." We were then told that we get all the HELP we need to do that - all specifically from the RC Denomination - from the official and current list of Saints of the RCC, from the Treasury of Merits that the RC Denomination banks, from the EXACTLY SEVEN Sacraments that the individual RC denomination owns and doles out, from the Queen of Heaven. I don't recall Jesus ever being mentioned in that context but yeah, I'm sure Jesus HELPS too. But save? No. IF any moving thing NEEDS salvation (and I think many agree with you that none do), then self saves self (albeit with help from the RCC).

Protestants, however, believe that apart from Christ we are DEAD (spiritually - yeah, like cockroaches, we can still physically move but....). And that we desperately NEED salvation, the SAVIOR. And we believe God has supplied that, and His name is Jesus. Of course, Luther said that... and that RCC excommunicated him for it and split itself over that.


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Obviously "spiritually dead" people can think, speak, walk, write, and grieve as well as feel sorry and resolve to change. It is also obvious that "spiritually dead" people are not actually dead.

Also obvious is that "spiritually dead" people are human beings. The "spiritually dead" are not corpses devoid of heartbeat, electrical activity in the brain, and all the other signs of life that a doctor (whether he is Christian or "spiritually dead" himself) uses to check for life.

Ephesians 2:1 You were dead, through faults and sins. 2 Once, you lived according them, according to this world, and followed the sovereign ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires. By ourselves, we went straight to the judgement, like the rest of humankind. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, revealed his immense love. 5 As we were dead through our sins, he gave us life, with Christ. By grace, you have been saved! 6 And he raised us to life, with Christ, giving us a place with him in heaven. 7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.​

"Spiritually dead" Ephesians who became Christians and "alive in Christ" were able to live according to this world and follow the ruler of who resist the faith. The passage quoted above doesn't pretend that "spiritually dead" people are incapable of doing anything. What their death signifies is that they are not alive in Christ. Not that they are dead and incapable of thought, action, purpose and so forth.

 

[Arsenios]

The Bible says (people) are ... physically alive, spiritually dead.
- Josiah

God will judge the living - eg those baptized into Christ, AND the dead - eg those not baptized into Christ...

The standards of judgement are different, and God knows the heart...

And in that line of judgement, I am persuaded that there will be a whole lot of folks who are dead who are WAY ahead of me in that line of salvation at the Last Judgement...

But here we are discussing Salvation in this life - How it is union with God in Christ - Here and now... And how it is attained, and how it is maintained, and how it can be lost... And what it looks like...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

God will judge the living - eg those baptized into Christ, AND the dead - eg those not baptized into Christ...

The standards of judgement are different, and God knows the heart...

And in that line of judgement, I am persuaded that there will be a whole lot of folks who are dead who are WAY ahead of me in that line of salvation at the Last Judgement...

But here we are discussing Salvation in this life - How it is union with God in Christ - Here and now... And how it is attained, and how it is maintained, and how it can be lost... And what it looks like...

Arsenios

We are discussing salvation but through the lens of justification. One may be justified yet be lost on judgement day if justification is not eternal as some Protestant theologies suggest and if it were eternal as some other Protestant theologies suggest then one who is/was justified will inevitably arrive in heaven without fail.

Catholic theologians generally do not suggest that justification is eternal or not eternal. That appears to be a "this Protestant" against "that Protestant" dispute.

 

[Lamb]

Josiah in Post #3:


I seem to remember some emphasis being placed elsewhere on "baptism doth also now save us".

Is my recollection faulty?

Baptism is God's work...so it's not outside the solas.

 

[Josiah]

Also obvious is that "spiritually dead" people are human beings. The "spiritually dead" are not corpses devoid of heartbeat, electrical activity in the brain, and all the other signs of life that a doctor (whether he is Christian or "spiritually dead" himself) uses to check for life.

Ephesians 2:1 You were dead, through faults and sins. 2 Once, you lived according them, according to this world, and followed the sovereign ruler who reigns between heaven and earth, and who goes on working, in those who resist the faith. 3 All of us belonged to them, at one time, and we followed human greed; we obeyed the urges of our human nature and consented to its desires. By ourselves, we went straight to the judgement, like the rest of humankind. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, revealed his immense love. 5 As we were dead through our sins, he gave us life, with Christ. By grace, you have been saved! 6 And he raised us to life, with Christ, giving us a place with him in heaven. 7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them.​

"Spiritually dead" Ephesians who became Christians and "alive in Christ" were able to live according to this world and follow the ruler of who resist the faith. The passage quoted above doesn't pretend that "spiritually dead" people are incapable of doing anything. What their death signifies is that they are not alive in Christ. Not that they are dead and incapable of thought, action, purpose and so forth.

Yes, the "spiritually dead" are dead. Typically, dead folks can't do much - and the spiritually dead can't do much spiritually.

Yes, the "physically dead" are dead. Typically, dead folks can't do much - and the physically dead can't do much physically.

Yes, one can be alive in one sense but not in the other, which means they are dead in one sense (and can't do things in that) and alive in the other (can thus can do stuff in that).

Yes, if one is alive (physically or spiritually) it is because God - the Lord and Giver of Life - gave them that life (physically or spiritually).


Because the Bible insists that those outside of Christ are DEAD, I disagree with your soteriology that the Dead give life to self, save self - and thus need no Jesus, no mercy, no salvation - just sufficient help and time (making Jesus "in vain" as Scripture states).


See posts 2, 3 and 8.



- Josiah

 

[Arsenios]

Baptism is God's work...so it's not outside the solas.

So is it INSIDE the Solas?

In the Ancient Faith, it is completely central for Salvation in this fallen life...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We are discussing salvation but through the lens of justification. One may be justified yet be lost on judgement day if justification is not eternal as some Protestant theologies suggest and if it were eternal as some other Protestant theologies suggest then one who is/was justified will inevitably arrive in heaven without fail.

Eternal is a big word...

Eternal Life is KNOWING the One True God and His Son, Jesus Christ...
So peculiar as it sounds, eternal Life can be lost in this life if one returns to sin...
I had one guy retort "WELL then! IF it can be lost in time, it is NOT eternal..."
I had to agree - It is not eternal in terms of created time...
It is instead entered into in a divine encounter with God...
God gives and takes away...
So the "eternal" refers to a quality of experience given by God...
It is the presence of the Holy Spirit

Catholic theologians generally do not suggest that justification is eternal or not eternal. That appears to be a "this Protestant" against "that Protestant" dispute.

Most Protestants wisely hold that their Salvation depends on an encounter they have had with God, however manifested... Their children, who may or may not have had such an experience, IF they remain Christian at all, then tend to become shrill in their Protestant opinions... Others can become demonized through a divine encounter, due to the inevitability of the crows eating the Sowers seeds and early shoots in poor soil... Many like eternal security here and now apart from their actions, and as long as one is in this life, vigil regarding sin is the rule, to the end... And until one lives that vigil, it can seem overwhelmingly scary and dangerous... I give it "challenging", and no more... And usually considerably less... I really do NOT like demonic powers... I will cross the street to attack them... And treat the wounded... Mind you!

Arsenios