Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

[Lamb]

The Word is my creed. Sorry I don't know what the argument is all about (now), but a "creed" is unnecessary especially when it wraps up the entire globe into how one is saved.
Oh sure im Catholic... Yeepy!

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Catholic as stated in the creed is with a small c meaning universal.

The creeds reiterate what the bible says. It's like if someone were to ask you what you believe. What you reply is your own personal creed. The word creed comes from the Latin credo which means a statement of beliefs. So everyone has a creed whether they want to admit it or not.

 

[Josiah]

Catholic as stated in the creed is with a small c meaning universal.

The creeds reiterate what the bible says. It's like if someone were to ask you what you believe. What you reply is your own personal creed. The word creed comes from the Latin credo which means a statement of beliefs. So everyone has a creed whether they want to admit it or not.

And for nearly 1700 years, that Ecumenical Creed confessed by the vast majority of Christians today (100% before the late 16th Century) specifically states a point VERY important in Christianity: that GOD is the GIVER of life. God is not the Offerer.... God is not simply the Possibility-Maker... God is the GIVER. The embrace of the Election of the living was universal until one man named Arminius came along in the 16th Century with his personal "logical-construction" conjecture..... THAT part of the question has been resolved for at least 1700 years, officially since the Ecumenical Council of Orange. The dispute is Calvin and Arminius - these 2 men in the 16th Century - couldn't or wouldn't leave well enough alone or accept the Mystery; they both designated the all-knowing Brain of Self to state why some are not saved - Calvin blaming God, Arminius disagreeing with Election and making self the sole savior and condemner of self (SELF alone being the reason why any goes to heaven or hell, whether self supplied the Good Work of choosing God or not). Both are clearly contrary to Scripture, contrary to the Nicene Creed, contrary to the Ecumenical Council of Orange, contrary to centuries of universal tradition and acceptance; both based on the conviction that God is subject to the logic of self.

 

[user1234]

And for nearly 1700 years, that Ecumenical Creed confessed by the vast majority of Christians today (100% before the late 16th Century) specifically states a point VERY important in Christianity: that GOD is the GIVER of life. God is not the Offerer.... God is not simply the Possibility-Maker... God is the GIVER. The embrace of the Election of the living was universal until one man named Arminius came along in the 16th Century with his personal "logical-construction" conjecture..... THAT part of the question has been resolved for at least 1700 years, officially since the Ecumenical Council of Orange. The dispute is Calvin and Arminius - these 2 men in the 16th Century - couldn't or wouldn't leave well enough alone or accept the Mystery; they both designated the all-knowing Brain of Self to state why some are not saved - Calvin blaming God, Arminius disagreeing with Election and making self the sole savior and condemner of self (SELF alone being the reason why any goes to heaven or hell, whether self supplied the Good Work of choosing God or not). Both are clearly contrary to Scripture, contrary to the Nicene Creed, contrary to the Ecumenical Council of Orange, contrary to centuries of universal tradition and acceptance; both based on the conviction that God is subject to the logic of self.

Did these folks you refer to believe that once saved, a person could then lose their salvation?

 

[Josiah]

Did these folks you refer to believe that once saved, a person could then lose their salvation?

Different subject for another thread, but yes... OSAS is also an invention of some radical followers of John Calvin; I don't think that stance existed prior to that. But again, that's a different subject for a different thread.




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[user1234]

Different subject for another thread, but yes... OSAS is also an invention of some radical followers of John Calvin; I don't think that stance existed prior to that. But again, that's a different subject for a different thread.




.

So, just to be clear...you're saying that all these folks believed that once Jesus saved you, you could still lose your salvation?

And no one ever believed otherwise until some followers of John Calvin came along, and they were radicals?

I'm not changing subjects, I'm absolutely keeping with it, trying to understand why some were SAVED, and some were not, or thought they could be saved then not.

I was trying to understand the conclusion you proferred in your earlier post, in keeping with the subject.

 

[Imalive]

So, just to be clear...you're saying that all these folks believed that once Jesus saved you, you could still lose your salvation?

And no one ever believed otherwise until some followers of John Calvin came along, and they were radicals?

I'm not changing subjects, I'm absolutely keeping with it, trying to understand why some were SAVED, and some were not, or thought they could be saved then not.

I was trying to understand the conclusion you proferred in your earlier post, in keeping with the subject.

Ever heard of Demas? The eternally secure make their election sure. The warnings are there so that people stay saved. If they were from us they would have stayed. The elect don't loose their salvation, but tell everyone: hey dont worry, no matter what you do you can't get unsaved, that is a lie. You won't die if you eat from that tree. God didnt say that.

 

[Albion]

Unfortunately, there are Bible verses used in support of each view...just as with a number of other doctrinal issues that seem impossible to resolve conclusively..

 

[Imalive]

Unfortunately, there are Bible verses used in support of each view...just as with a number of other doctrinal issues that seem impossible to resolve conclusively..

I read one explanation that I found the best. Cant find it anymore, I posted it a while back. Paul w those prisoners on the ship. An angel said they would not die. Don't worry. They'll be safe. Then they tried to escape and he said: stay on the ship or else you die. So God keeps ppl safe by warning that they can lose it.

 

[user1234]

Ever heard of Demas? The eternally secure make their election sure. The warnings are there so that people stay saved. If they were from us they would have stayed. The elect don't loose their salvation, but tell everyone: hey dont worry, no matter what you do you can't get unsaved, that is a lie. You won't die if you eat from that tree. God didnt say that.

Demas salutes you! :wave: Lol. And Paul did call him a fellow-laborer.
But then later on he turned his back, abandoned, left Paul it seems that so did Crescens and Titus. I'm not sure that that's referring to them losing their salvation ....

It looks more like Paul was just saddened by that kind of cold treatment by 'friends', and was filling in the recipient(s) of the letter what his state of affairs and needs were.

At one point it seemed like no one stood with him. Alex the coppersmith is the one Paul seemed most upset about, warning others about him .... It seems he was resisting Paul, and I guess, the gospel. It doesnt say that any of them LOST their salvation, though perhaps Alex never had it.

I guess trusting in the finished work of Jesus is the surest way to have assurance of salvation, not in anything we can do to get or keep ourselves saved.

Unfortunately, there are Bible verses used in support of each view...just as with a number of other doctrinal issues that seem impossible to resolve conclusively..

Bible verses can be used to support all kinds of views, and ppl do that all the time, it's crazy, but in a way, it proves that it truly is the Word of God....Nobody tries to do that with any other book. But God is not the author of confusion, and He doesnt contradict Himself, we just struggle with understanding some things.

 

[Imalive]

Demas left him cause he loved the world.
Ignoring is not anti christian. Corrie ten Boom had a kid in her house that screamed and bumped her head to doors and they ignored her like she was a little fly zooming around their deaf ears. Kid was like that cause her German mom hit her in the face. After a few days she normalized. Very christian indeed.

 

[meluckycharms]

Unfortunately, there are Bible verses used in support of each view...just as with a number of other doctrinal issues that seem impossible to resolve conclusively..

Agreed. After going to seminary I soon realized that theology has a lot of grey. There is very rarely a right or a wrong answer. Only possible answers, each as valid as the other. Which is why systematic theology, hermeneutics, and apologetics are so important. Unfortunately, these topics are woefully lacking in many churches today.

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[meluckycharms]

But God is not the author of confusion, and He doesnt contradict Himself, we just struggle with understanding some things.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV

However:

Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
Genesis 11:7 NIV

Not trying to argue. Just food for thought to emphasize the "greyness" in Christian theology.


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[MennoSota]

Seems like there are some that desperately want to deny God's righteous judgment of sin resulting in just damnation in hell. This is done despite the fact that God the Son talked about hell more than all others.
Then we have people preaching that God saved us by grace, but we must maintain our salvation by works (Galatians living in our midst) or we'll be like Demas.
How is it that people ignore the full text of scripture in order to cling to one verse as their doctrinal belief? I just shake my head. It's not even worth reviewing scripture here. No one cares.

 

[meluckycharms]

Seems like there are some that desperately want to deny God's righteous judgment of sin resulting in just damnation in hell.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting this.

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[user1234]

Demas left him cause he loved the world.
Ignoring is not anti christian. Corrie ten Boom had a kid in her house that screamed and bumped her head to doors and they ignored her like she was a little fly zooming around their deaf ears. Kid was like that cause her German mom hit her in the face. After a few days she normalized. Very christian indeed.

Demas left Paul, a brother in Christ, just as many others did, abandoned, turned their back on him, basically equivalent to ignoring him, a very un-christian thing to do, ESPECIALLY to a brother or sister in Christ.

And that deliberate ignoring of ppl, especially of other christians BY christians, goes against (is ANTI) the overwhelming teaching of scripture.

But it still doesnt say anything about Demas or the rest of them actually losing their salvation.

The thing Corrie did to try to help raise an unruly child is not anything like what I'm referring to, that's a completely different situation.

I'm talking about ppl doing the opposite of love ... (which really isn't hate, so much as it is indifference.)
And ppl, especially 'christians' that ignore other christians (and I mean adults, deliberately ignoring others) shows an air of indifference, and sometimes superiority, that is very cold and anti-christian.

And wow, it can have devastating effects on some ppl. It can really hurt deep and mess a person up, and believe it or not, that's EXACTLY WHY some ppl do it.

It's bad enough if it happens by accident, like oversight, perhaps, but I've seen alot of it done on purpose, in fact, some ppl actually conspire...team up...to do it to others. Believe me, you dont want it done to you, I pray it never is, it's really horrible.

But Jesus' promise is not only a special one to cling to (osas, that He would never leave us or forsake us) but an exhortation to how we should try to be towards each other as christians brothers and sisters in the faith and love of Christ.

Of course, none of us has it perfect, we're a work in progress, hopefully forgiving each others faults and growing in grace. :grouphug:

 

[Imalive]

Demas left Paul, a brother in Christ, just as many others did, abandoned, turned their back on him, basically equivalent to ignoring him, a very un-christian thing to do, ESPECIALLY to a brother or sister in Christ.

And that deliberate ignoring of ppl, especially of other christians BY christians, goes against (is ANTI) the overwhelming teaching of scripture.

But it still doesnt say anything about Demas or the rest of them actually losing their salvation.

The thing Corrie did to try to help raise an unruly child is not anything like what I'm referring to, that's a completely different situation.

I'm talking about ppl doing the opposite of love ... (which really isn't hate, so much as it is indifference.)
And ppl, especially 'christians' that ignore other christians (and I mean adults, deliberately ignoring others) shows an air of indifference, and sometimes superiority, that is very cold and anti-christian.

And wow, it can have devastating effects on some ppl. It can really hurt deep and mess a person up, and believe it or not, that's EXACTLY WHY some ppl do it.

It's bad enough if it happens by accident, like oversight, perhaps, but I've seen alot of it done on purpose, in fact, some ppl actually conspire...team up...to do it to others. Believe me, you dont want it done to you, I pray it never is, it's really horrible.

But Jesus' promise is not only a special one to cling to (osas, that He would never leave us or forsake us) but an exhortation to how we should try to be towards each other as christians brothers and sisters in the faith and love of Christ.

Of course, none of us has it perfect, we're a work in progress, hopefully forgiving each others faults and growing in grace. :grouphug:

If I ask you to stop and you keep accusing and saying I follow false teaching and go on and not understand anything I shut my phone off. Easy as that. Act normal if you dont want me to ignore you. Ppl did that to me when I flipped out or kept going on and I'm thankful for that. It taught me to act normal.

 

[Pedrito]

Post 232:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV

However:

Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
Genesis 11:7 NIV

Not trying to argue. Just food for thought to emphasize the "greyness" in Christian theology.

==============================================================================================

1 Corinthians 14:33 is a general statement applied to a particular situation.

Genesis 11:7 is a situational action, with a specific, time-limited purpose.

Trying to relate them to support the "greyness" in Christian theology, is fallacious.

==============================================================================================

Pedrito is going to be bold enough to suggest that the “the sky is blue; the ocean is blue; therefore the sky and the ocean are related” approach is encouraged by seminaries, rather than being dissected and discouraged.

That is naturally so, because the employment of precision soon uncovers cracks in the doctrines and practices of most denominations. No seminary (even an “interdenominational” one) would want too much unwanted light thrown on its own preferred perspectives.

It is much safer to leave the situation fluid, and simply stress “acceptable” doctrines and practices as being the preferred ones, implying that there is insufficient definitive evidence to prove them wrong.

But in fact, that approach simply adds to the confusion. Confusion, of which God is not the author.


And Pedrito contends that that confusion can provide no sound basis for addressing meaningful questions such as “Why are Some Saved and Not Others?”

 

[meluckycharms]

Post 232:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV

However:

Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
Genesis 11:7 NIV

Not trying to argue. Just food for thought to emphasize the "greyness" in Christian theology.

==============================================================================================

1 Corinthians 14:33 is a general statement applied to a particular situation.

Genesis 11:7 is a situational action, with a specific, time-limited purpose.

Trying to relate them to support the "greyness" in Christian theology, is fallacious.

==============================================================================================

Pedrito is going to be bold enough to suggest that the “the sky is blue; the ocean is blue; therefore the sky and the ocean are related” approach is encouraged by seminaries, rather than being dissected and discouraged.

That is naturally so, because the employment of precision soon uncovers cracks in the doctrines and practices of most denominations. No seminary (even an “interdenominational” one) would want too much unwanted light thrown on its own preferred perspectives.

It is much safer to leave the situation fluid, and simply stress “acceptable” doctrines and practices as being the preferred ones, implying that there is insufficient definitive evidence to prove them wrong.

But in fact, that approach simply adds to the confusion. Confusion, of which God is not the author.


And Pedrito contends that that confusion can provide no sound basis for addressing meaningful questions such as “Why are Some Saved and Not Others?”

I don't think you understand the point I was making. If there wasn't so much grey why are there so many denominations and which one is right?

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[user1234]

If I ask you to stop and you keep accusing and saying I follow false teaching and go on and not understand anything I shut my phone off. Easy as that. Act normal if you dont want me to ignore you. Ppl did that to me when I flipped out or kept going on and I'm thankful for that. It taught me to act normal.

What the oops are you talking about?
My signature? That's a true statement across the board, not a personal message to any one in particular.
As far as the accusation of false teaching, I recall many times you accusing me of following false teaching because I believe in salvation by grace osas and not works. But thats fine, youre allowed to believe that if you want, no hard feelings here, I still love ya.

Ppl that teach that Hebrews teaches you can lose your salvation by twisting 6:4-6 completely out of context and butchering the whole passage are teaching falsely. You are free to believe them if thats what you really want to follow, I pray you wouldnt, tho...

I'm going to continue to try to put the truth out there, contend for the faith, and expose false doctrine and practices, and pray for ppl to be led out of them for their sake and Jesus'.

I'd say that's about as normal as can be expected for this peculiar person saved by Jesus, and I dont see anything wrong with that. Not sure what you expect of me, but most ppls definition of normal is pretty boring, so I hope that's not it. :spinningsmilie:

 

[Imalive]

I don't think you understand the point I was making. If there wasn't so much grey why are there so many denominations and which one is right?

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Mine of course lol.