Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

[meluckycharms]

You forgot Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell and Garner Ted Armstrong. Do you accept their interpretations? How can we know they were wrong?
How do we know that Armininus, Luther, Wesley, Aquinas, Augustine, and even Calvin did not pull their theology out of thin air? What if they were wrong? In fact, since they had opposing views on some areas, we can be assured that someone was wrong.
I make my case from scripture. You can disagree. I may be wrong or you may be wrong. We'll find out when we stand before the Sovereign God and Judge. Until then I will keep studying God's word to understand what God is saying.

I never said that I accepted their interpretations nor did I suggest that we had to accept them. I am asking you why you believe your interpretation is better than theirs?

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[MennoSota]

You are confused with diesm. Completely different from determinism. For someone so savvy in theology I am shocked.

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Not at all. Deism is not what I am stating. Buddhists and Hindus see God as being all things (Pantheism) and this unthinking force has determined everything. Hardcore atheists also believe in determinism. Nature, they believe, is hardwired and all things happen exactly as nature has predetermined.
The God of Creation is neither unthinking nor is He silent. He is active and sustaining. He holds all things in His hand and directs his creation as He so wills. Nothing surprises Him or happens outside of His scope of knowledge. No created thing acts in a way that takes God by surprise or unawares.
In regard to salvation, God tells us that He predestined those who are being saved. He flat out tells us this. There is no debate to be had.

 

[MennoSota]

I never said that I accepted their interpretations nor did I suggest that we had to accept them. I am asking you why you believe your interpretation is better than theirs?

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Did I say I believe my interpretation is better than theirs? If so, please quote me.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #204, the Poster said:

Did I say I believe my interpretation is better than theirs? If so, please quote me.

Well, if that Poster doesn't believe that his interpretation is better than others', why is he promoting it so strongly?

Why bother to promote something that he does not believe to be the most correct among the possible alternatives?

Actions speak louder than words, it is said.

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(Readers will notice that Pedrito has used the genderless "he" when referring to that Poster, because Pedrito does not know, or has forgotten, that Poster's actual gender. In proper English, as opposed to the colloquial, and as opposed to the modern "politically correct" imposition, the male embraces the female.)

 

[Albion]

Did I say I believe my interpretation is better than theirs? If so, please quote me.

"Because the Bible is so very clear on the issue. There is no need to manufacture some philosophy. There is no need to conjure up an idea called free-will. Just let the Bible speak and you end up with the view I hold."

 

[meluckycharms]

Not at all. Deism is not what I am stating. Buddhists and Hindus see God as being all things (Pantheism) and this unthinking force has determined everything. Hardcore atheists also believe in determinism. Nature, they believe, is hardwired and all things happen exactly as nature has predetermined.
The God of Creation is neither unthinking nor is He silent. He is active and sustaining. He holds all things in His hand and directs his creation as He so wills. Nothing surprises Him or happens outside of His scope of knowledge. No created thing acts in a way that takes God by surprise or unawares.
In regard to salvation, God tells us that He predestined those who are being saved. He flat out tells us this. There is no debate to be had.

Here is a link to a short video to explain the difference between determinism and free will. You are confused.

https://youtu.be/vCGtkDzELAI

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[MennoSota]

Here is a link to a short video to explain the difference between determinism and free will. You are confused.

https://youtu.be/vCGtkDzELAI

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No. You're just not biblically well versed. Not one place in scripture do you find free-will taught. It is entirely a made up fiction from the mind of man. On the other hand you read God declaring that he chooses, elects and predestined.
What you have displayed in every instance is a pathetic exegesis. Cringe worthy and something that should make you ashamed to be discussing about God. Yet, hear you are displaying horrendous thinking with nearly every post. Congratulation, you are at least consistently wrong.

 

[psalms 91]

Not at all. Deism is not what I am stating. Buddhists and Hindus see God as being all things (Pantheism) and this unthinking force has determined everything. Hardcore atheists also believe in determinism. Nature, they believe, is hardwired and all things happen exactly as nature has predetermined.
The God of Creation is neither unthinking nor is He silent. He is active and sustaining. He holds all things in His hand and directs his creation as He so wills. Nothing surprises Him or happens outside of His scope of knowledge. No created thing acts in a way that takes God by surprise or unawares.
In regard to salvation, God tells us that He predestined those who are being saved. He flat out tells us this. There is no debate to be had.

Why are they predestined? It is because of Gods foreknowledge of what we will do and what we will choose

 

[Imalive]

Why are they predestined? It is because of Gods foreknowledge of what we will do and what we will choose

Exactly. He knows our hearts and He declares the end from the beginning. Jesus didnt trust Himself to them cause He knew what was in their heart.

 

[Imalive]

No. You're just not biblically well versed. Not one place in scripture do you find free-will taught.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.

34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

John 7:17
If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Deuteronomy 11:26-28

“See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known.

Isaiah 55:6-7

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Proverbs 1:29
Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord,

Genesis 4:6-7

The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”

 

[Imalive]

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/sovereign-free-will.html

 

[Josiah]

On the other hand you read God declaring that he chooses, elects and predestined.

Never that He chooses, elects, predestines and desires most to fry in hell - that GOD is the one responsible for most going to hell, that God's heart is to see most eternally suffer in hell (because He just gets off on that, it "gives Him glory" as one Calvinist at another site kept insisting). You giving God the blame.... you crediting God's heart with desiring most fry in hell - that's what I disagree with, that's the UNBIBLICAL and horrible aspect of Calvinism.

BOTH 16th century conjectures as to why some go to hell - that of Arminius and Calvin - are EQUALLY BOTH unbiblical and horrible theories, both invented because they seemed "logical" to these 2 men but mandated that both then circumvent a LOT of Scriptures, corrrecting God who clearly misspoke because God doesn't say what they do and thus God isn't as smart and logical as they are.



A blessed New Year to all....



- Josiah

 

[Albion]

Why are they predestined? It is because of Gods foreknowledge of what we will do and what we will choose

That one is easy to handle, fortunately. No, predestinarians do not believe that foreknowledge is the basis on which God chooses his elect. It would, in fact, be a denial of predestination for him to approve of someone's free will choices (whenever made) and grant them salvation for that reason.

 

[psalms 91]

That one is easy to handle, fortunately. No, predestinarians do not believe that foreknowledge is the basis on which God chooses his elect. It would, in fact, be a denial of predestination for him to approve of someone's free will choices (whenever made) and grant them salvation for that reason.

Way for them to ignore scripture, by denyiong this they also deny an atritribute of God

 

[Josiah]

The Nicene Creed affirms that spiritual life comes not from self (via some "free will" or "decision" or "choice") but from God. "...And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life...." Notice, it doesn't say "The Offerer of Life" but the Giver of Life.

Since the beginning of Christianity.... until one man named Arminius came around in the 16th Century.... it was universally held that God GIVES life (physical and spiritual), that it's the gift of God that we are born again. We give 100% of the credit for our justification - spiritual life - born again to God, who is the Author and Giver of Life. Important enough to get into the Nicene Creed. LOTS proclaim it - but deny that petition.

But the Creed does NOT say, "... and the Giver of Eternal Death in Hell." That was not a Christian belief until one man came along in the 16th Century, John Calvin.



- Josiah




.

 

[Pedrito]

Post #122, in reply to the statement in Post #121 - (Jesus was quite clear. All folk are recipients of salvation. This is God's action not any humans'; Paul similarly declares that as "all in Adam died (through no choice of their own) so all in Christ are made alive (also through no choice of their own.)):

So Universalism.

Is the author of Post #122 therefore accusing Paul of being a Universalist when Paul said For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive in 1 Corinthians 15:22?

(The fact that Paul applied a general statement to a particular situation, does not invalidate the clear contrast in that statement.)

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From Post #122 again:

So if you honestly believe that Jesus is claiming that he will draw every single individual on the Earth in John 12:32, then you must also believe that Jesus is claiming that He will raise up every single individual on the Earth to eternal life on the last day as promised in John 6:44...

Is that necessarily so? Could they be referring to different things?

What about Genesis 12:3, Genesis 18:18, Genesis 22:18, Genesis 26:4 and Genesis 28:14? Those verses variously say that all the nations of the Earth and all the families of the Earth shall be blessed.

Should the “all” in those verses be said to mean “not all, but representatives from each type”, as the “all” in John 12:32 is explained away to mean?

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And just what families/nations are being referred to in those inspired proclamations? All the families and nations in existence when Jesus died? Those in existence since then, including today? Those in existence in Abraham’s day? Those in existence prior to Abraham? Pre-Flood also, perhaps?

Could it be that the label “Universalism” as defined, and its use to negatively label individuals (instead of so labelling the inconvenient Scripture quoted by those people), need some revision?

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #125, the Poster gave a direct answer to the question “saved from what”:

Saved from the just wrath of God is the answer.

However, none of the creeds actually says that. That has now been firmly established.


So Pedrito must now seek clarification regarding:
- What form or forms does that just wrath of God take?
- When is that form, or when are those forms, actually applied?

 

[Albion]

In Post #125, the Poster gave a direct answer to the question “saved from what”:

Saved from the just wrath of God is the answer.

However, none of the creeds actually says that. That has now been firmly established.

Really? Here's what the Athanasian Creed states:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.
Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. "

Saved from perishing everlastingly.

Apparently, "it" HASN'T been "firmly established" after all.

 

[Andrew]

The Word is my creed. Sorry I don't know what the argument is all about (now), but a "creed" is unnecessary especially when it wraps up the entire globe into how one is saved.
Oh sure im Catholic... Yeepy!

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[Imalive]

The Nicene Creed affirms that spiritual life comes not from self (via some "free will" or "decision" or "choice") but from God. "...And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life...." Notice, it doesn't say "The Offerer of Life" but the Giver of Life.

Since the beginning of Christianity.... until one man named Arminius came around in the 16th Century.... it was universally held that God GIVES life (physical and spiritual), that it's the gift of God that we are born again. We give 100% of the credit for our justification - spiritual life - born again to God, who is the Author and Giver of Life. Important enough to get into the Nicene Creed. LOTS proclaim it - but deny that petition.

But the Creed does NOT say, "... and the Giver of Eternal Death in Hell." That was not a Christian belief until one man came along in the 16th Century, John Calvin.



- Josiah




.

Every good gift comes from above, from the Father of Light. The thief comes to kill steal and destroy. Jesus gives Life.
Yup. Accept that wonderful gift from the Father: hell.
That is insane. That's a gift from the devil.