COMMUNION: Does "is" mean "is?" Catholic, Lutheran, Evangelical

[Imalive]

It baffles me how someone who takes a mars and a coke tells lutherans they do it evil. Why not chips and diet coke? What about the gospel being first for the Jew? I do not think that there will ever be a communion w Messianic Jews and christians who take what was the candy bar called ah who cares, elements don't matter.

 

[MennoSota]

Does bread at the Last Supper and a shared cup of wine equal a meal? That's what the wafer [sic] is, you know--bread.

Have you ever sat down for the Sedir meal? I can tell you it is much more than a store bought wafer and a shot glass of wine. The symbolism and process of the meal is an elegant reminder of the Passover. What Jesus did was to add himself as the lamb that was slain.

 

[user1234]

Have you ever sat down for the Sedir meal? I can tell you it is much more than a store bought wafer and a shot glass of wine. The symbolism and process of the meal is an elegant reminder of the Passover. What Jesus did was to add himself as the lamb that was slain.

Amen, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
HIS blood.
On the cross.
Once.
One sacrifice for all.

The broken bread and the poured out wine are sooo beautiful in their symbolism.
I choke back tears right now thinking about it.
It is so grievous that something so beautiful and such amazing grace is bringing such turmoil and strife.

 

[MennoSota]

It baffles me how someone who takes a mars and a coke tells lutherans they do it evil. Why not chips and diet coke? What about the gospel being first for the Jew? I do not think that there will ever be a communion w Messianic Jews and christians who take what was the candy bar called ah who cares, elements don't matter.

One: No one said "You do it evil."
Two: There is no mysticism in the memorial of communion, therefore the elements you use are not the issue.
Three: The issue is entirely wrapped around honoring the work of Christ Jesus in atoning for the sins of the adopted humans who are now found in Christ. Christ can be honored regardless of the elements that are available in memorializing the work of Christ Jesus. The elements may not matter, but the solemn remembrance matters. No one takes this memorial flippantly.
Four: If you are going to insist on exact elements then we must use unleavened bread such as matzoh bread. Manufactured wafers from a factory won't cut it. Also, the wine must be that which is produced in Israel, using the same fermentation process as was used at the time of Christ. (Do you see how far removed all churches are from first century Judea?) The legalistic Judaiser's would be shocked at the sacrilege of all churches today. All churches. Why would you be so caught up in legalism regarding the elements chosen? Christians have made cultural changes in this area for milleniums.

 

[Imalive]

One: No one said "You do it evil."
Two: There is no mysticism in the memorial of communion, therefore the elements you use are not the issue.
Three: The issue is entirely wrapped around honoring the work of Christ Jesus in atoning for the sins of the adopted humans who are now found in Christ. Christ can be honored regardless of the elements that are available in memorializing the work of Christ Jesus. The elements may not matter, but the solemn remembrance matters. No one takes this memorial flippantly.
Four: If you are going to insist on exact elements then we must use unleavened bread such as matzoh bread. Manufactured wafers from a factory won't cut it. Also, the wine must be that which is produced in Israel, using the same fermentation process as was used at the time of Christ. (Do you see how far removed all churches are from first century Judea?) The legalistic Judaiser's would be shocked at the sacrilege of all churches today. All churches. Why would you be so caught up in legalism regarding the elements chosen? Christians have made cultural changes in this area for milleniums.

We always use matzes, any church I ever attended used matzes. Bible doesn't say it has to be Israeli wine.
Yes very far off and we'd better try to get closer to the original. First they just broke the bread at home, in simplicity, then that was forbidden.

 

[Imalive]

Oh funny. I thought that was just normal and in any country, but it's quite unique that we have that bakery. 2 rabbi's make sure it's kosher.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tbOsxBcc3-0

 

[Imalive]

At the end of the movie he says it's transported to Africa etc to Jews who celebrate Passover according to their rite that stayed the same through the ages. They can let it stay the same.

 

[MennoSota]

We always use matzes, any church I ever attended used matzes. Bible doesn't say it has to be Israeli wine.
Yes very far off and we'd better try to get closer to the original. First they just broke the bread at home, in simplicity, then that was forbidden.

View attachment 994

Why had we better try to get closer to the original? Will God's gracious unmerited favor be diminished if we don't use the exact elements used during the Last Supper?
Again, why is legalism good for the body of Christ? We're we saved by our good works? Are we kept saved only by our good works? Can failure to use the exact elements in communion separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus?

 

[MennoSota]

At the end of the movie he says it's transported to Africa etc to Jews who celebrate Passover according to their rite that stayed the same through the ages. They can let it stay the same.

Does anti-Semitism run deep in the Netherlands?

 

[Imalive]

Does anti-Semitism run deep in the Netherlands?

Had to look it up.

In June 2015, De Telegraaf published the results of the report on antisemitism among youths, conducted by the Verwey Jonker Institute. The survey revealed that antisemitism is more prevalent among Muslim: 12 percent of Muslim respondents expressed a "not positive" view of Dutch Jews compared to only two percent among Christian respondents. Moreover, 40% of Muslim respondents expressed a "not positive" view for Jews in Israel, compared to only 6% of the Christian respondents.[31]

The ADL (Anti-Defamation League) published on 2015 the "ADL Global 100"[32] an international survey conducted in 2013-2014 to measure antisemitic opinions in 100 countries around the world. According to the survey, 5% of the population in the Netherlands harbors antisemitic opinions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Netherlands

http://m.jpost.com/Opinion/A-short-review-of-Dutch-anti-Israel-incitement-466684

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.jta...srael-efforts-at-un-dutch-parliament-says/amp

 

[Imalive]

Why had we better try to get closer to the original? Will God's gracious unmerited favor be diminished if we don't use the exact elements used during the Last Supper?
Again, why is legalism good for the body of Christ? We're we saved by our good works? Are we kept saved only by our good works? Can failure to use the exact elements in communion separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus?

I meant the original: less formal, breaking the bread at houses as communion, fellowship.
Everyone should buy those matzes lol. Even the machines get ritually cleaned. I didn't know that.
It's important that there also comes unity between Jew and gentile. One new Man.

 

[user1234]

I meant the original: less formal, breaking the bread at houses as communion, fellowship.
Everyone should buy those matzes lol. Even the machines get ritually cleaned. I didn't know that.
It's important that there also comes unity between Jew and gentile. One new Man.

Were you saying we SHOULD meet at houses, fellowship, extend brotherly love, strive towards unity, etc?
Because THAT sounds GREAT ... I'm all for that.
I even suggested a couple ways to try to do something similar RIGHT HERE and use the site for helping others get saved and ourselves to grow rather than just for religious debates and political insults.
Kinda fell on deaf ears.

But I thought you were saying before that house churches were hangouts for false teachers. Or was it fb preachers?
Know what...? nm, I dont know which it was at this point.
But yes, we have got to get it together...

 

[Josiah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCEP-z4rGSU


20 minutes long (too long for many) but the pastor gives 5 solid reasons in support of the Real Presence view (Lutheran).

 

[atpollard]

Balderdash.

Semantic double-talk.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Balderdash.

Semantic double-talk.

I'll have to try that argument in a thread some time soon. It's so profound :disgonbegood:

 

[atpollard]

I'll have to try that argument in a thread some time soon. It's so profound :disgonbegood:

Did you waste 20 minutes watching the video?
(If not, then don’t judge me.)

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did you waste 20 minutes watching the video?
(If not, then don’t judge me.)

I don't recall, I didn't click the link in Josiah's post but I watch a lot of theological videos even if they are Lutheran

But your reply was at best curt and far from profound.

 

[Arsenios]

.

One might summerize the 3 common views this way:


LUTHERANS: Is.... Body..... Blood..... bread..... wine....... All are true, all are affirmed. It's mystery.


ROMAN CATHOLIC: Body.... Blood..... THEY are true and affirmed, but "is" doesn't mean that and the bread and wine actually aren't, they are Aristotelian Accidents instead. It's an alchemic Transubstatiation.


EVANGELICALS: Bread.... Wine.... THEY are true and affirmed, but "is" doesn't mean that and the Body and Blood actually aren't, they are symbols instead. It's metaphor.

.

I would simply throw in, not having read the thread, that for the Orthodox, the Consecrated Bread and the Wine ARE the Body and Blood of our Risen Lord...

Christ Himself Consecrated the first Bread and Wine, so it clearly does not mean His pre-crucifixion Body and Blood...

Prior to His ascent to the Father, He told Mary the Magdalene to NOT touch His Body because He had not yet ascended to the Father... THAT body is not in view here...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

...and the most sensible POV is omitted...the Anglican one. But don't anyone take that as a criticism; it always is overlooked in discussions like this one unless an Anglican brings it into the debate. :sly:

 

[Albion]

I would simply throw in, not having read the thread, that for the Orthodox, the Consecrated Bread and the Wine ARE the Body and Blood of our Risen Lord...

Christ Himself Consecrated the first Bread and Wine, so it clearly does not mean His pre-crucifixion Body and Blood...

Prior to His ascent to the Father, He told Mary the Magdalene to NOT touch His Body because He had not yet ascended to the Father... THAT body is not in view here...


Arsenios

What do you say in response to the near-universal description of the Orthodox POV, which is that it is indeed Transubstantiation, except that the church does not sign on to the RC approach of explaining/defining the mechanics of how the change from bread and wine occurs?