the meaning of Baptism

[Imalive]

The bible says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
How cool is that? :cheer:

You're trying to bring the Good news or something?

 

[user1234]

You're trying to bring the Good news or something?

I sorry

 

[MennoSota]

Weak? God wants all man to be saved. 1 Timothy.
Of course humans control their own destiny.
What do you tell someone if you evangelize? Jesus loves you maybe, maybe not and maybe He shed His blood for you to save you. So don't repent because you're dead and you can't.

Not all men are saved. Is God's will thwarted by man? If so, then God's will is subject under man's will.
I tell people that God is reconciled with man and redeems mankind through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. I then let God do His work of choosing to make a person alive or leave them to be dead in their sins. I am not responsible for their salvation. I am only responsible for my obedience to God's command.
If they believe, then God made them alive in Christ. If they don't believe, then God left them in their deadness. God may or may not choose a different time in the future.

 

[MennoSota]

The bible says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
How cool is that? :cheer:

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Only the elect can believe.

 

[MennoSota]

This teaching is hard for people who want to be in control and want God as an advisor.

John 6:44,63-66
[44]For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
[63]The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
[64]But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
[65]Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
[66]At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him.

 

[Josiah]

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Only the elect can believe.

I disagree. NO ONE can believe. God must GIVE faith.


But back to the topic....

 

[MennoSota]

I disagree. NO ONE can believe. God must GIVE faith.


But back to the topic....

That's what I said. Belief comes after salvation.

 

[user1234]

Should we tell ppl the good news, or just wish them good luck?

 

[Josiah]

That's what I said. Belief comes after salvation.

I think you said the elect CAN believe. That's what I disagree with. My pov is that NO ONE can believe. God must GIVE faith.

Now, you could argue that He only gives it to the elect - a point I'd stay far away from - but that's not the elect having the ability to believe and thus don't need God to have such.

I don't agree that faith comes AFTER salvation since there is no salvation apart from faith. I affirm Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola fide as ONE inseparable, united doctrine: thus there is no salvation apart from the whole of that. HOW God does all that is mystery - and in my opinion, best left as that.


But we seem WAY off topic, my good friend.... The issue of justification is a good one and there is an active current thread on that topic. This one is about the "meaning" of baptism (now on page 51 !!!)

 

[MennoSota]

I think you said the elect CAN believe. That's what I disagree with. My pov is that NO ONE can believe. God must GIVE faith.

Now, you could argue that He only gives it to the elect - a point I'd stay far away from - but that's not the elect having the ability to believe and thus don't need God to have such.

I don't agree that faith comes AFTER salvation since there is no salvation apart from faith. I affirm Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola fide as ONE inseparable, united doctrine: thus there is no salvation apart from the whole of that. HOW God does all that is mystery - and in my opinion, best left as that.


But we seem WAY off topic, my good friend.... The issue of justification is a good one and there is an active current thread on that topic. This one is about the "meaning" of baptism (now on page 51 !!!)

You are saying the same thing as me in your first paragraph.
As for baptism, until people let the scriptures speak louder than their denomination we will have no meaningful dialogue.

 

[user1234]

Full immersion.
If you had a cloth that was completely red, and you wanted it completely white, you would immerse it completely into a dye or bleach to turn it white. (Immerse, submerge, dunk, etc.)
Sprinkling or spritzing a bit of dye on it wouldnt work, nor would only partially submerging it.
It would have to be fully dunked to be transformed from a red cloth to a white one.

When Jesus saves us, when we believe (receive, accept, etc., ppl use different terms), but when we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour, we've been 'baptized into Christ', fully immersed, washed, cleansed, 'bleached', if you will.
This is why we sing...Jesus paid it all, all to Him we owe, sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow!

That is salvation, being saved by God, as a gift of His grace, through faith in the finished work of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Hallelujah! This is all the work of God, apart from water-baptism, communion wafers, titheing, or any religious rituals or good deeds on our part. Purchased with the precious blood of Jesus, adopted into the family of God, declared righteous in Christ and sealed with His Holy Spirit.

The ceremony of water-baptism SHOULD be a full immersion, as it represents what Jesus Christ did for us. He fully died and rose again. We've been fully immersed in and saved by Him, and we should be fully immersed in water indicating we've been buried with Him, and brought up from the water, indicating we are risen with Him, IN HIM.

So SHOULD be, yes, but NOT as a legalistic necessity for salvation, that negates the point of being saved by grace thru faith. Some may be baptised in different ways...maybe they CANT be dunked, or not at all.
Water-baptism is a wonderful ceremony, but a person can be saved without it.
If someone is telling you you MUST be water-baptised, or water-baptised a specific way IN ORDER TO BE SAVED, they're preaching a different, or false, gospel.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Celebrate His gift of salvation with a wonderful water-baptism ceremony.
Just dont turn it into a religious 'Have-to' in order to be saved, or you frustrate
the grace of God and defeat the purpose. Peace.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What does baptism mean [MENTION=333]Snerfle[/MENTION] & [MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]?

 

[Albion]

Full immersion.
If you had a cloth that was completely red, and you wanted it completely white, you would immerse it completely into a dye or bleach to turn it white. (Immerse, submerge, dunk, etc.)
Sprinkling or spritzing a bit of dye on it wouldnt work, nor would only partially submerging it.
It would have to be fully dunked to be transformed from a red cloth to a white one.

Fortunately, that is not what Baptism is all about. Symbolically, it is about a spiritual washing. That is reflected in the root word which people who think immersion is the only valid way to baptize say means to submerge, but the word also can mean to wash or dip. In fact, submerge is much less indicative of what the sacrament means than wash or dip.

 

[MennoSota]

Fortunately, that is not what Baptism is all about. Symbolically, it is about a spiritual washing. That is reflected in the root word which people who think immersion is the only valid way to baptize say means to submerge, but the word also can mean to wash or dip. In fact, submerge is much less indicative of what the sacrament means than wash or dip.

Scripture please.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Scripture please.

The holy scriptures tell us what baptism means in these passages.

I see baptism in Jesus discussion with Nicodemus

John 3:3-8 Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. [4] Nicodemus said, 'How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?' [5] Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; [6] what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above. [8] The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.​

I see baptism in Paul's words about salvation

Titus 3:3-7 There was a time when we too were ignorant, disobedient and misled and enslaved by different passions and dissipations; we lived then in wickedness and malice, hating each other and hateful ourselves. [4] But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour for humanity were revealed, [5] it was not because of any upright actions we had done ourselves; it was for no reason except his own faithful love that he saved us, by means of the cleansing water of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit [6] which he has so generously poured over us through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [7] so that, justified by his grace, we should become heirs in hope of eternal life.
​

I see baptism in Paul's discussion about union with Jesus Christ

Romans 6:1-14 What should we say then? Should we remain in sin so that grace may be given the more fully? [2] Out of the question! We have died to sin; how could we go on living in it? [3] You cannot have forgotten that all of us, when we were baptised into Christ Jesus, were baptised into his death. [4] So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glorious power, we too should begin living a new life. [5] If we have been joined to him by dying a death like his, so we shall be by a resurrection like his; [6] realising that our former self was crucified with him, so that the self which belonged to sin should be destroyed and we should be freed from the slavery of sin. [7] Someone who has died, of course, no longer has to answer for sin. [8] But we believe that, if we died with Christ, then we shall live with him too. [9] We know that Christ has been raised from the dead and will never die again. Death has no power over him any more. [10] For by dying, he is dead to sin once and for all, and now the life that he lives is life with God. [11] In the same way, you must see yourselves as being dead to sin but alive for God in Christ Jesus. [12] That is why you must not allow sin to reign over your mortal bodies and make you obey their desires; [13] or give any parts of your bodies over to sin to be used as instruments of evil. Instead, give yourselves to God, as people brought to life from the dead, and give every part of your bodies to God to be instruments of uprightness; [14] and then sin will no longer have any power over you -- you are living not under law, but under grace.
​

I also see baptism in Peter's discussion about salvation

1 Peter 3:18-22 Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, [19] and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. [20] They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. [21] It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now -- not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has entered heaven and is at God's right hand, with angels, ruling forces and powers subject to him.​

 

[user1234]

Fortunately, that is not what Baptism is all about. Symbolically, it is about a spiritual washing. That is reflected in the root word which people who think immersion is the only valid way to baptize say means to submerge, but the word also can mean to wash or dip. In fact, submerge is much less indicative of what the sacrament means than wash or dip.

Hi Albion
Yes, that's exactly what water-baptism is about...a symbolic act representing the spiritual reality of already being fully immersed IN CHRIST.

Being saved by faith is what matters, not getting wet. And Jesus didnt just 'dip' a toe into death, or 'spritz' a few drops of blood...He went FULLY into death, and SHED His blood for the sins of the world.

Again, a person can be saved w out being water-baptised, but if a person does it, why only go for a dipping (unless thats the only option)? Why not go full-in, as Jesus did with His sacrifice for us? He 'fully submerged' for us...We're fully submerged in Him...Why not fully submerge in the water at the ceremony? Dont you see how that would be most indicative, not less?

And to all readers, please, dont try to teach that its a requirement for salvation, or put a legalistic spin on the techniques being used. Please dont try to frustrate the grace of God. The Judaisers were doing that with circumcision, we shouldnt be doing it with water-baptism. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to save to the uttermost.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi Albion
Yes, that's exactly what water-baptism is about...a symbolic act representing the spiritual reality of already being fully immersed IN CHRIST.

Being saved by faith is what matters, not getting wet. And Jesus didnt just 'dip' a toe into death, or 'spritz' a few drops of blood...He went FULLY into death, and SHED His blood for the sins of the world.

Again, a person can be saved w out being water-baptised, but if a person does it, why only go for a dipping (unless thats the only option)? Why not go full-in, as Jesus did with His sacrifice for us? He 'fully submerged' for us...We're fully submerged in Him...Why not fully submerge in the water at the ceremony? Dont you see how that would be most indicative, not less?

And to all readers, please, dont try to teach that its a requirement for salvation, or put a legalistic spin on the techniques being used. Please dont try to frustrate the grace of God. The Judaisers were doing that with circumcision, we shouldnt be doing it with water-baptism. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to save to the uttermost.

Where does holy scripture say that baptism is symbolic?

 

[MennoSota]

The holy scriptures tell us what baptism means in these passages.

I see baptism in Jesus discussion with Nicodemus

John 3:3-8 Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. [4] Nicodemus said, 'How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?' [5] Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; [6] what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above. [8] The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.​

I see baptism in Paul's words about salvation

Titus 3:3-7 There was a time when we too were ignorant, disobedient and misled and enslaved by different passions and dissipations; we lived then in wickedness and malice, hating each other and hateful ourselves. [4] But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour for humanity were revealed, [5] it was not because of any upright actions we had done ourselves; it was for no reason except his own faithful love that he saved us, by means of the cleansing water of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit [6] which he has so generously poured over us through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [7] so that, justified by his grace, we should become heirs in hope of eternal life.
​

I see baptism in Paul's discussion about union with Jesus Christ

Romans 6:1-14 What should we say then? Should we remain in sin so that grace may be given the more fully? [2] Out of the question! We have died to sin; how could we go on living in it? [3] You cannot have forgotten that all of us, when we were baptised into Christ Jesus, were baptised into his death. [4] So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glorious power, we too should begin living a new life. [5] If we have been joined to him by dying a death like his, so we shall be by a resurrection like his; [6] realising that our former self was crucified with him, so that the self which belonged to sin should be destroyed and we should be freed from the slavery of sin. [7] Someone who has died, of course, no longer has to answer for sin. [8] But we believe that, if we died with Christ, then we shall live with him too. [9] We know that Christ has been raised from the dead and will never die again. Death has no power over him any more. [10] For by dying, he is dead to sin once and for all, and now the life that he lives is life with God. [11] In the same way, you must see yourselves as being dead to sin but alive for God in Christ Jesus. [12] That is why you must not allow sin to reign over your mortal bodies and make you obey their desires; [13] or give any parts of your bodies over to sin to be used as instruments of evil. Instead, give yourselves to God, as people brought to life from the dead, and give every part of your bodies to God to be instruments of uprightness; [14] and then sin will no longer have any power over you -- you are living not under law, but under grace.
​

I also see baptism in Peter's discussion about salvation

1 Peter 3:18-22 Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, [19] and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. [20] They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. [21] It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now -- not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has entered heaven and is at God's right hand, with angels, ruling forces and powers subject to him.​

The first two passages you are seeing ghosts. The last two passages support snerfle and me, showing that the baptism is of the Holy Spirit. Peter even tells us that the water doesn't save.
Thanks for sharing, MC.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The first two passages you are seeing ghosts. The last two passages support snerfle and me, showing that the baptism is of the Holy Spirit. Peter even tells us that the water doesn't save.
Thanks for sharing, MC.

What does baptism mean? You haven't said.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As an aside - the only bible I've seen that uses "symbol" in connection with baptism is The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (NWT) published by The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society which is the printing arm of Jehovah's witnesses. It is a well known bible that is notorious for unflinching insertions, deletions, and changes of wording to make it fit the doctrines of Jehovah's witnesses. As it happens their teaching is that baptism is symbolic and must be administered by submersion and only to people who make a credible professions of belief in the doctrines of Jehovah's witnesses. In the NWT the opening of the gospel according to Mark reads as follows

Mark 1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ, the Son of God: 2 Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “(Look! I am sending my messenger ahead of you,* who will prepare your way.)+ 3 A voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah!* Make his roads straight.’”+ 4 John the Baptizer was in the wilderness, preaching baptism in symbol of repentance for forgiveness of sins.+ 5 And all the territory of Ju·deʹa and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem were going out to him, and they were baptized* by him in the Jordan River, openly confessing their sins.+ 6 Now John wore clothing of camel’s hair and a leather belt around his waist,+ and he ate locusts and wild honey.+ 7 And he was preaching: “Someone stronger than I am is coming after me, the lace of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.+ 8 I baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with holy spirit.”+​