the meaning of Baptism

[MoreCoffee]

I'll take that as a no.
I ask a direct question about a specific theological statement and I get a wall of text on an unrelated subject.

"In baptism, God can give a baby the gift of faith" (some support was requested)
"because the word is present with the water." (some clarification and support was requested).

Were either of those addressed in your wall of text?
1. Faith comes through baptism
2. the Word is in the water.

My question was valid whatever the age of the recipient and had nothing to do with paedobaptism or not.

You asked for a passage that does not exist just as Josiah asks for passages that do not exist. No passages say "infants have saving faith and therefore ought to be baptised" and no passage says "baptise only those who have reached age X" both your request and Josiah's request are red herrings.

The "wall of text" need not be read, it was primarily scripture quotes which I am sure you have read at some time in the past - perhaps even very recently. It was given only for the purpose of addressing the topic of the thread which is, of course, the meaning of baptism. The discussion about who is to be baptised and at what age or under what conditions is not apropos the thread's stated topic. It is a side-bar issue that's dominated the discussion for longer than it should because it is fundamentally unsolvable using "the bible alone". You know as do I that paedobaptism is drawn from reasoning about the covenants and about the meaning of household baptisms in scripture in part and also in part it is drawn from Church practise over the centuries. You know as do I that credobaptism is drawn in part from reasoning from the scriptures and Anabaptist/Baptist practise over the past four or five centuries. What's the point in flogging this particular dead horse? You will not change you mind nor will I. The passages cited and quoted in posts about who is rightly baptised do not convince either side that the other side is right. That is why there are still two sides to the debate. No one has created an irrefutable case that all must agree to or abandon faith altogether. Catholic Christians freely admit that our practises are not always drawn from "scripture alone". It's time that Anabaptist/baptist people did the same, but I hold no real hope that they will.

You ask
1. Faith comes through baptism
2. the Word is in the water.

The answer is
(1) who knows, maybe, but the holy scriptures say that the Spirit comes with baptism.
(2) the scriptures (word) are read when the water is applied. The Word of God is always present with God's people. He is present in baptism. Baptism means union with Christ - a matter covered in one of the passages that you referred to as a wall of text.

 

[Imalive]

You've learned the tricks needed to create long posts that nobody reads

The CAPSLOCK trick I haven't tried yet.

HAVING CLEANSED HER FOR THE BATH OF WATER BY THE WORD

 

[MoreCoffee]

The CAPSLOCK trick I haven't tried yet.

HAVING CLEANSED HER FOR THE BATH OF WATER BY THE WORD

Excellent, I can feel your anger Complete your journey to the dark side with huge cut and pastes from interWebz and long videos to prove your point!

Muhahahaha

 

[Lamb]

Atonement of sin was paid for the elect. To state otherwise is to preach universalism.
God gives us new life...then he gives us the faith to believe. Our salvation comes before our faith.
God is certainly capable of gifting a baby immediate adoption into his family, but by what means can we discern that God actually HAS given a baby this gift?
If you say "by an act of someone else baptizing the child" then you remove grace and preach salvation by an outward work other than Christ and Christ alone. If the water is miraculous in saving, then why is it only good for babies?
If the word is present in the water, then why is it not present in the water of your local pool?
If the baby must be taught before baptism, then by what test do you discern that a baby has been saved before you baptize the child?
Either you have a logical conundrum or you have salvation by works that can apply to all humanity, not just babies.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The elect will receive the benefits of that atonement and those who reject do not. But since the fall included the entire world, the atonement also was for the entire world. It's just not all will benefit from it.

 

[user1234]

But OF COURSE most Christians disagree with you (100% of those who lived before the Anabaptist movement of the 16th Century).... And of course, there is NOTHING in the Bible which states what you do. You are entitled to your (new, minority) opinion - most certainly - and that's respected, but nothing in Scripture remotely states that. And no one for 1500 years of Christianity ever thought or even opinionated that.

And as we witness, most disagree that there are prohibitions in the Great Commission which state, "But thou canst NOT go... baptize... teach any under the age of X" or "But thou canst NOT go... baptize... teach any who have not proven and documented their born again status and salvation" or "Thou must go.... baptize..... teach but this is a waste of time and of no spiritual value" or "Thou canst NOT baptize with water but must immerse them in the Holy Spirit" or any of the other positions stated in this thread. They too are simply nowhere stated in Scripture. And are new opinions never heard of before the Anabaptists in the 16th Century.



- Josiah

Of course they do? Oh well, they're allowed. Most, but not all, tho, right? So that's cool.
And Jesus doesnt and the bible doesnt, so I'm okay with that. And it sounds like some folks called the Anabaptists(?) dont, so it would be nice to meet them, find out what was shakin in the 1500s.
Anyways, are you sure ALL those disagreers back then were 100% real, genuine christians, because there's alot of charlatans these days, and I'm guessing there were back then, too.

I dont know what all the prohibitions are youre referring to, but there's alot of religious-types out there that try to frustrate the grace of God with alot of 'Cans and Cants' and there's a shmorgasbored (←spelling for a friend <3 ) of religions, doctrines and practices to pick and choose from any day of the week.

The good news is Jesus died for our sins and rose from the grave, He's King of kings and Lord of lords and the only wise God our Saviour, and anyone can be saved by faith in Him TODAY.

 

[Imalive]

Derek Prince:
It is improper to leave dead bodies lying around unburied.

 

[user1234]

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The elect will receive the benefits of that atonement and those who reject do not. But since the fall included the entire world, the atonement also was for the entire world. It's just not all will benefit from it.

Really well said, Lamm.
(Only thing is, I sometimes hesitate using the word 'elect' in 'mixed company' lol.
It can stoke all kinds of fires. )

But yes, by one man, sin entered.
And by the sacrifice of one, Jesus, (and ONLY by the sacrifice of Him) then, can whosoever will believe in Him and be saved and enter God's Kingdom. Jesus paid it all, His blood was shed for the sins of the world, and the only thing keeping a man from entering now is unbelief...
rejecting Jesus as Saviour leaves a person without any sacrifice left, no way to pay the penalty for their sins, and a horrible eternity awaits them.
The good news IS that Jesus paid it all, and let whosoever will take and drink of the water of life freely and their eternity is secure in Jesus Christ. \ /

 

[MennoSota]

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The elect will receive the benefits of that atonement and those who reject do not. But since the fall included the entire world, the atonement also was for the entire world. It's just not all will benefit from it.

Is the whole world every person or every elect person?
If John is speaking universally, then everyone goes to heaven. All humans have the promise of atonement for their sins. All humans have been chosen before the foundation of the world to have their sins atoned for.
John cannot mean this as it contradicts the rest of scripture.
Instead, John must be stating that throughout the world and in the future, those whom God has elected unto salvation will have their sins atoned for.
Again, plucking one verse as a prooftext is a terrible thing to do.

1 John 2:1-6
[1]My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.
[2]He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
[3]And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments.
[4]If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth.
[5]But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him.
[6]Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

 

[user1234]

[SIZE=+1]HUMOR ALERT[/SIZE]

Derek Prince:
It is improper to leave dead bodies lying around unburied.

•What a day...we spent 4 hours burying the cat.
~ 4 HOURS??!! To bury A CAT???!!!
•Yeah. Darn thing wouldn't keep still.
~ Oh. You mean it wasn't dead, then?
•No, no, but it wasn't well, and seeing how we're going on holiday.....
well, we didn't want to come home...to...ya know...
~ Yes, yes, it's always best to do the right thing. °~°

Thanks, properly, to the inspirations of one Derek the Prince, Esq.

(Thanks, also, however loosely, to the Monty Python sect ftang limited, etc.)

 

[Lamb]

Is the whole world every person or every elect person?
If John is speaking universally, then everyone goes to heaven. All humans have the promise of atonement for their sins. All humans have been chosen before the foundation of the world to have their sins atoned for.
John cannot mean this as it contradicts the rest of scripture.
Instead, John must be stating that throughout the world and in the future, those whom God has elected unto salvation will have their sins atoned for.
Again, plucking one verse as a prooftext is a terrible thing to do.

1 John 2:1-6
[1]My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.
[2]He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
[3]And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments.
[4]If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth.
[5]But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him.
[6]Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

It's the whole world. Not the whole world reaps the benefits because of rejection of the Savior. The elect are those who at their death or when Jesus returns have faith. They are the ones who received the prize of the cross. But scripture states in more than one spot that Jesus died for all not just a select few. It's man who doesn't understand so twists scripture to try to fit his theology.

 

[MennoSota]

Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

It's the whole world. Not the whole world reaps the benefits because of rejection of the Savior. The elect are those who at their death or when Jesus returns have faith. They are the ones who received the prize of the cross. But scripture states in more than one spot that Jesus died for all not just a select few. It's man who doesn't understand so twists scripture to try to fit his theology.

If you are correct in your interpretation then join the Unitarian/Universalist church...cause everyone is getting into heaven.
Second, you remove grace as the saving component and replace it with works. First you choose to believe and at anytime you can choose to disbelieve. It's all about you. God is just a passive observer of whether you are going to pick him off the shelf of gods.
Your cherry picking of verses as a prooftext is not good. Look at the context to see if your verse says what you claim.
In John 1 the world is not universal. World refers to the elect. The elect have been chosen before the foundation of the world. Read Ephesians 1 and 2.

 

[Imalive]

Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

It's the whole world. Not the whole world reaps the benefits because of rejection of the Savior. The elect are those who at their death or when Jesus returns have faith. They are the ones who received the prize of the cross. But scripture states in more than one spot that Jesus died for all not just a select few. It's man who doesn't understand so twists scripture to try to fit his theology.

Those are not elect, but first their sins were done away by the Blood:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[Lamb]

If you are correct in your interpretation then join the Unitarian/Universalist church...cause everyone is getting into heaven.
Second, you remove grace as the saving component and replace it with works. First you choose to believe and at anytime you can choose to disbelieve. It's all about you. God is just a passive observer of whether you are going to pick him off the shelf of gods.
Your cherry picking of verses as a prooftext is not good. Look at the context to see if your verse says what you claim.
In John 1 the world is not universal. World refers to the elect. The elect have been chosen before the foundation of the world. Read Ephesians 1 and 2.

Absolutely not.

We are saved by grace through faith and faith comes by the word, not of ourselves.

Those who reject the Savior reject the forgiveness of sins won at the cross and reject faith to trust in that. They do not receive salvation even though Jesus died for them.

 

[MennoSota]

Absolutely not.

We are saved by grace through faith and faith comes by the word, not of ourselves.

Those who reject the Savior reject the forgiveness of sins won at the cross and reject faith to trust in that. They do not receive salvation even though Jesus died for them.

You cannot reject what you do not have. Before Christ you are a dead person. A dead person cannot accept or reject anything. This is the very point of Ephesians 2:1.
Ephesians 2:8-9 show us that grace comes first. God gives us what we don't deserve. God chooses whom He chooses. After God's choice of You, then and only then do you have the capability to have faith in Jesus atonement.
Anytime you put your choice ahead of God's you deny scripture and create a salvation based on works, apart from grace.

 

[Lamb]

You cannot reject what you do not have. Before Christ you are a dead person. A dead person cannot accept or reject anything. This is the very point of Ephesians 2:1.
Ephesians 2:8-9 show us that grace comes first. God gives us what we don't deserve. God chooses whom He chooses. After God's choice of You, then and only then do you have the capability to have faith in Jesus atonement.
Anytime you put your choice ahead of God's you deny scripture and create a salvation based on works, apart from grace.

We are by nature enemies of God. Jesus died for all. Those who reject will not benefit. You have chosen to believe that God has select few He's giving faith to. But that's not the case since scriptures state that man can fall away from faith. Those men who fall are those who reject the faith God gives to them.

 

[MennoSota]

We are by nature enemies of God. Jesus died for all. Those who reject will not benefit. You have chosen to believe that God has select few He's giving faith to. But that's not the case since scriptures state that man can fall away from faith. Those men who fall are those who reject the faith God gives to them.

We are by virtue of our sin...DEAD in our trespasses and sins.
Jesus died for all the elect. If he died for all and not all enter heaven then either God is weak and humans control their own destiny or God is a liar.
I choose to believe that God does the choosing because the Bible is very clear, over and over again, that God chooses. Just do a word study on the word "chosen", the word "elect" and the word "predestined". You will see how the Bible is filled with the theme of God's choosing.
In the Garden, the sinners hid. God chose to call them and redeem them. God chose Noah. God chose Abraham. God chose Jacob and rejected Esau. God chose Moses. God chose Joshua. God chose the Judges. God chose David. God chose, God chose, God chose. You can't miss it unless you close your eyes.
We must let the scriptures say what they say and adjust our opinions to what God actually says.

 

[Lamb]

We are by virtue of our sin...DEAD in our trespasses and sins.
Jesus died for all the elect. If he died for all and not all enter heaven then either God is weak and humans control their own destiny or God is a liar.
I choose to believe that God does the choosing because the Bible is very clear, over and over again, that God chooses. Just do a word study on the word "chosen", the word "elect" and the word "predestined". You will see how the Bible is filled with the theme of God's choosing.
In the Garden, the sinners hid. God chose to call them and redeem them. God chose Noah. God chose Abraham. God chose Jacob and rejected Esau. God chose Moses. God chose Joshua. God chose the Judges. God chose David. God chose, God chose, God chose. You can't miss it unless you close your eyes.
We must let the scriptures say what they say and adjust our opinions to what God actually says.

You choose to blame God for man going to hell...when in fact it's man's fault for rejecting the forgiveness won at the cross and the Savior.

God isn't so stingie on giving faith as you seem to think. Why even have the Great Commission if God didn't want us to proclaim the work of the Savior to all? You have limited God's good news.

 

[MennoSota]

You choose to blame God for man going to hell...when in fact it's man's fault for rejecting the forgiveness won at the cross and the Savior.

God isn't so stingie on giving faith as you seem to think. Why even have the Great Commission if God didn't want us to proclaim the work of the Savior to all? You have limited God's good news.

Not at all. Humans are entirely responsible for their sin.
God, on the other hand has ZERO obligation to pardon lawbreakers. If God chose to save only one human over the course of time, it would still be an amazing act of grace. The fact that God has chosen to save millions upon millions over history just makes his grace spectacularly amazing.
God's commission is given as a command. Never once are we commanded to save another person or told that the person chooses God. Even the abused verse in Joshua isn't a verse on free will. The context shows us that Israel would fail miserably if the attempted to gain God's favor by good works. God wants us to be ambassadors because it is God's choice to give us that role. The pressure of saving anyone is never on us. We just share. God chooses to make people alive.
The scriptures are very clear on this. Just put your preconceived ideas on the shelf and read the Bible.
I grew up in a free-will environment. Just look at my name. It was by reading the Bible and letting it have the final say that I saw God's election and choice as the only means of true and unfettered grace. It wasn't an overnight change so I don't expect anyone here to just change. I only ask that people challenge their preconceptions and denominational teachings. Let God's word have the ultimate say.

 

[user1234]

The bible says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
How cool is that? :cheer:

 

[Imalive]

We are by virtue of our sin...DEAD in our trespasses and sins.
Jesus died for all the elect. If he died for all and not all enter heaven then either God is weak and humans control their own destiny or God is a liar.
I choose to believe that God does the choosing because the Bible is very clear, over and over again, that God chooses. Just do a word study on the word "chosen", the word "elect" and the word "predestined". You will see how the Bible is filled with the theme of God's choosing.
In the Garden, the sinners hid. God chose to call them and redeem them. God chose Noah. God chose Abraham. God chose Jacob and rejected Esau. God chose Moses. God chose Joshua. God chose the Judges. God chose David. God chose, God chose, God chose. You can't miss it unless you close your eyes.
We must let the scriptures say what they say and adjust our opinions to what God actually says.

Weak? God wants all man to be saved. 1 Timothy.
Of course humans control their own destiny.
What do you tell someone if you evangelize? Jesus loves you maybe, maybe not and maybe He shed His blood for you to save you. So don't repent because you're dead and you can't.