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the meaning of Baptism

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MennoSota

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It is not "an honest question".
It is an absolutely honest question. I am following the logic of infant baptism and applying it to all humanity. Why can we not apply infant baptism to all humanity?
 

MoreCoffee

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It is an absolutely honest question. I am following the logic of infant baptism and applying it to all humanity. Why can we not apply infant baptism to all humanity?

No. You're not following logic.
 

Imalive

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Is this baby born again w baptism?

gwynthfair
Answered 24-6-06
27 found this helpful
I am an atheist and my husband is a non practicing catholic. I had never thought about baptising our daughter, but our families were so excited and enthusiastic about it that we ended up doing it. It may sound hypocrite to some, but it made our families happy, and it was an excuse to get together and celebrate. I don't see anything wrong with that...
 

MennoSota

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No. You're not following logic.
You are avoiding the answer because you see the deep flaw in your viewpoint. I find your avoidance very interesting. It's your choice to avoid your problems.
 

MoreCoffee

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Some of the faults in your proposal are
  • baptism is an action of the church not of individuals who happen to attend a church and are at a public swimming pool
  • baptism is a sacrament in which God is the primary actor
  • baptism is - in ordinary circumstances - to be done in church and presided over by an elder or a bishop. Not by somebody splashing people at random and saying something that the splashed, in all likelihood, will think is the crazed ravings of a lunatic.
  • It isn't baptism just because somebody says "I baptise you"
 

Lamb

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It's an honest question.
If a baby can have its sins atoned for by virtue of someone else choosing to sprinkle water upon it and say "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" then why can't any or all humans have their sins atoned for by the same practice? Why just babies?

Atonement of sins was won for us by Jesus on the cross. God gives us the gift of faith to believe/trust in this good news. In baptism God can give a baby the gift of faith because the word is present with the water. Teaching and baptism go hand in hand...which is why no one would go to a pool or beach and just splash water. Utterly ridiculous to make such a statement.
 

MennoSota

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Atonement of sins was won for us by Jesus on the cross. God gives us the gift of faith to believe/trust in this good news. In baptism God can give a baby the gift of faith because the word is present with the water. Teaching and baptism go hand in hand...which is why no one would go to a pool or beach and just splash water. Utterly ridiculous to make such a statement.
Atonement of sin was paid for the elect. To state otherwise is to preach universalism.
God gives us new life...then he gives us the faith to believe. Our salvation comes before our faith.
God is certainly capable of gifting a baby immediate adoption into his family, but by what means can we discern that God actually HAS given a baby this gift?
If you say "by an act of someone else baptizing the child" then you remove grace and preach salvation by an outward work other than Christ and Christ alone. If the water is miraculous in saving, then why is it only good for babies?
If the word is present in the water, then why is it not present in the water of your local pool?
If the baby must be taught before baptism, then by what test do you discern that a baby has been saved before you baptize the child?
Either you have a logical conundrum or you have salvation by works that can apply to all humanity, not just babies.
 

Imalive

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Atonement of sin was paid for the elect. To state otherwise is to preach universalism.
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. If someone rejects His offer His blood won't take their sins away though.
 

Imalive

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Atonement of sin was paid for the elect. To state otherwise is to preach universalism.
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. If someone rejects His offer His blood won't take their sins away though.
 

Imalive

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Since I think noone read my link and it was fabulous I copy paste it:


Ephesians 5:26 is one of those verses that popped off the page for me as a young Christian. Why? Because I just didn’t get it. It’s usually translated something like this: “That he [Messiah] might sanctify her [the Church], having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word” (NASB). What is the “washing of water with the word”?

The first part of the verse is easy to understand. It refers back to the previous verse, which says that Jesus “turned himself in” (or “gave himself up”) to the authorities because of his great love for the Church (Eph. 5:25). This led to his being crucified, which is the means by which we, the Church, are made holy, that is, set apart from the world (sanctified) to God.

But what about the second part: “…having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word”? This is usually explained as the cleansing action of the Word of God in our lives, that it washes us like water—which is true. But if that’s the intended meaning here, it would have been much easier to say, “having cleansed her by the washing of the word.” Why the addition of those extra words? We must be missing something. And as it turns out, this is a great example of why we need our Jewish Roots to understand the Bible correctly.

But first let’s deepen the mystery. The language is even more puzzling in the original: “having cleansed her for the bath of water by the word” (a literal translation of the Greek of Eph. 5:26). Why would you need to cleanse someone in preparation for a bath?

The beginning of a solution comes from the Greek word used for “bath” here: loutron. In Titus 3:5, this same word refers to baptism: “…according to his mercy he saved us through a bath of regeneration and a renewal by the Holy Spirit.” This bath is the immersion of baptism, which was almost always done in the early Church by dipping the entire body in water, just as many churches do it today. If we transfer this same meaning over to Ephesians, our verse now makes more sense: Jesus cleansed the Church by his word to prepare her for the cleansing of baptism.

But why this double cleansing? This reflects the procedure used in Jewish ritual immersion, the origin of Christian baptism. Jewish immersion is done in a mikvah. This is a tub similar in size to the baptistries found in churches that practice baptism by immersion, with a set of stairs leading down into the water. But unlike modern baptistries, they were always cut out of bedrock and filled with rainwater.

Immersion in a mikvah is not for getting the dirt off—it’s for ritual cleansing. So it was the practice to take an ordinary bath first. This way the water in the mikvah would stay clean.

This two-step procedure matches the double cleansing Paul was talking about: “…having cleansed her...by the word” is the first cleansing—to get the dirt off. “For the bath of water” is the second cleansing—baptism.

Among the early Jewish believers in Jesus, this implied more than it stated. Before taking a mikvah bath, a person was ritually unclean. This uncleanness could be transmitted from one person to another by touch. For Jesus to wash the Church before her ritual cleansing implies that he was willing to contract ritual uncleanness from us in order to make us clean!

Now we can put together the original meaning of this verse more accurately: The first part (the easy part) is talking about Messiah’s tremendous love for us, that he was willing to give himself up to crucifixion that we might be made holy. The second part continues this thought with a beautiful picture of Jesus washing the Church, by which he subjected himself to ritual uncleanness that we might be made ready for baptism.

All this is in the context of Paul's instruction for husbands to love their wives (Eph. 5:25-33). Like Messiah, husbands should take the more difficult path. They should humble themselves for their wives’ benefit. But it also speaks of Messiah’s love in general: that we, like Jesus, should be willing to humble ourselves on behalf of those that are not yet spiritually clean, sharing with them the Word of God, that through his Word they might be cleansed for the bath that leads to eternal life.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Since I think noone read my link and it was fabulous I copy paste it ...

You've learned the tricks needed to create long posts that nobody reads :p
 

MennoSota

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Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. If someone rejects His offer His blood won't take their sins away though.
Then you either believe in universalism or salvation/loss of salvation by works apart from grace.
A human cannot reject what s/he will never accept. There is none who seek God, not even one. (Romans 3)
 

atpollard

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In baptism God can give a baby the gift of faith because the word is present with the water.
Could you please provide some support for this statement?
 

user1234

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So much of what is written and causing division in this thread is ALMOST making me sorry that I ever got water-baptised, just so I could prove that salvation is the GIFT of God, by grace, thru FAITH, apart from being water-baptised.
I'll bet there's a whole lot of ppl that died in faith in Jesus and went to heaven without ever being water-baptised.

I'm afraid it's also possible that there are ppl who die and dont go to heaven, but might have been water-baptised in some religious ceremony of one sort or another.

Water-baptism can, ... and should be, a wonderful ceremony that celebrates and demonstrates that a person has been saved by Jesus.
It's not a means TO, nor a requirement FOR, salvation, ... it's a ceremony that we all should rejoice in and unite over as blood-bought sons and daughters of our true and living God and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 

NewCreation435

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So much of what is written and causing division in this thread is ALMOST making me sorry that I ever got water-baptised, just so I could prove that salvation is the GIFT of God, by grace, thru FAITH, apart from being water-baptised.
I'll bet there's a whole lot of ppl that died in faith in Jesus and went to heaven without ever being water-baptised.

I'm afraid it's also possible that there are ppl who die and dont go to heaven, but might have been water-baptised in some religious ceremony of one sort or another.

Water-baptism can, ... and should be, a wonderful ceremony that celebrates and demonstrates that a person has been saved by Jesus.
It's not a means TO, nor a requirement FOR, salvation, ... it's a ceremony that we all should rejoice in and unite over as blood-bought sons and daughters of our true and living God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus is one of them. Jesus told him he would be that day with him in Paradise, but he didn't get baptized at all.
 

MoreCoffee

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Could you please provide some support for this statement?

The gift an infant has is the gift of faithful parents who promise to bring up the child in the nurture of the Lord - a very great gift. But there is no need to claim that the infant has "saving faith" while still an infant. It is sufficient to observe that God included infants in the covenant he made with Israel when they left Egypt.

The holy scriptures tell us what baptism means in passages that has previously been cited and quoted.

I see baptism in Jesus discussion with Nicodemus
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. [4] Nicodemus said, 'How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?' [5] Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; [6] what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above. [8] The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.​

I see baptism in Paul's words about salvation
Titus 3:3-7 There was a time when we too were ignorant, disobedient and misled and enslaved by different passions and dissipations; we lived then in wickedness and malice, hating each other and hateful ourselves. [4] But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour for humanity were revealed, [5] it was not because of any upright actions we had done ourselves; it was for no reason except his own faithful love that he saved us, by means of the cleansing water of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit [6] which he has so generously poured over us through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [7] so that, justified by his grace, we should become heirs in hope of eternal life.

I see baptism in Paul's discussion about union with Jesus Christ
Romans 6:1-14 What should we say then? Should we remain in sin so that grace may be given the more fully? [2] Out of the question! We have died to sin; how could we go on living in it? [3] You cannot have forgotten that all of us, when we were baptised into Christ Jesus, were baptised into his death. [4] So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glorious power, we too should begin living a new life. [5] If we have been joined to him by dying a death like his, so we shall be by a resurrection like his; [6] realising that our former self was crucified with him, so that the self which belonged to sin should be destroyed and we should be freed from the slavery of sin. [7] Someone who has died, of course, no longer has to answer for sin. [8] But we believe that, if we died with Christ, then we shall live with him too. [9] We know that Christ has been raised from the dead and will never die again. Death has no power over him any more. [10] For by dying, he is dead to sin once and for all, and now the life that he lives is life with God. [11] In the same way, you must see yourselves as being dead to sin but alive for God in Christ Jesus. [12] That is why you must not allow sin to reign over your mortal bodies and make you obey their desires; [13] or give any parts of your bodies over to sin to be used as instruments of evil. Instead, give yourselves to God, as people brought to life from the dead, and give every part of your bodies to God to be instruments of uprightness; [14] and then sin will no longer have any power over you -- you are living not under law, but under grace.

I also see baptism in Peter's discussion about salvation
1 Peter 3:18-22 Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, [19] and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. [20] They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. [21] It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now -- not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has entered heaven and is at God's right hand, with angels, ruling forces and powers subject to him.​

Some may say that the references in the first two passages are to something other than baptism.

Since this thread is about the meaning of baptism I quote the passages above as instances of the holy scriptures presenting perspectives on the meaning of baptism. The question of who may be baptised is not the same as asking what baptism means.

The proper candidates for baptism is a matter disputed by Anabaptists and Baptists and those denominations and non-denominational groups that claim baptism is to be administered only to those who make a credible profession of faith prior to being baptised. The rest of the Christian community regards baptism as rightly administered to believers and their children. If this matter were decided by vote then paedobaptism would be received as right and if the matter is judged by the practise of the ancient church then paedobaptism would be received as right if the matter is decided by what the holy scriptures say then we have a dispute because those sharing an Anabaptist perspective say one thing and those who share the perspective of the rest of the Christian community say a different thing. Deciding what is right by scripture's words alone hasn't worked for almost 500 years. It isn't going to work now either.
 

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The thief on the cross next to Jesus is one of them. Jesus told him he would be that day with him in Paradise, but he didn't get baptized at all.

Some say he desired to follow Jesus and would follow Jesus into baptism had water and opportunity been present - this is sometimes called the baptism of desire which the Catholic Church receives as baptism along with the baptism of blood which is received by the martyrs who died in Christ before they received baptism with water and the Spirit. The martyrs include the infants who were martyred along with their parents in some of the persecutions that Christians have received from the world.
 

Josiah

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Water-baptism can, ... and should be, a wonderful ceremony that celebrates and demonstrates that a person has been saved by Jesus.
It's not a means TO, nor a requirement FOR, salvation, ... it's a ceremony that we all should rejoice in and unite over as blood-bought sons and daughters of our true and living God and Saviour Jesus Christ.


But OF COURSE most Christians disagree with you (100% of those who lived before the Anabaptist movement of the 16th Century).... And of course, there is NOTHING in the Bible which states what you do. You are entitled to your (new, minority) opinion - most certainly - and that's respected, but nothing in Scripture remotely states that. And no one for 1500 years of Christianity ever thought or even opinionated that.

And as we witness, most disagree that there are prohibitions in the Great Commission which state, "But thou canst NOT go... baptize... teach any under the age of X" or "But thou canst NOT go... baptize... teach any who have not proven and documented their born again status and salvation" or "Thou must go.... baptize..... teach but this is a waste of time and of no spiritual value" or "Thou canst NOT baptize with water but must immerse them in the Holy Spirit" or any of the other positions stated in this thread. They too are simply nowhere stated in Scripture. And are new opinions never heard of before the Anabaptists in the 16th Century.



- Josiah
 

atpollard

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The gift an infant has is the gift of faithful parents who promise to bring up the child in the nurture of the Lord - a very great gift. But there is no need to claim that the infant has "saving faith" while still an infant. It is sufficient to observe that God included infants in the covenant he made with Israel when they left Egypt.

The holy scriptures tell us what baptism means in passages that has previously been cited and quoted.

I see baptism in Jesus discussion with Nicodemus
John 3:3-8 Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. [4] Nicodemus said, 'How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?' [5] Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; [6] what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above. [8] The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.​

I see baptism in Paul's words about salvation
Titus 3:3-7 There was a time when we too were ignorant, disobedient and misled and enslaved by different passions and dissipations; we lived then in wickedness and malice, hating each other and hateful ourselves. [4] But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour for humanity were revealed, [5] it was not because of any upright actions we had done ourselves; it was for no reason except his own faithful love that he saved us, by means of the cleansing water of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit [6] which he has so generously poured over us through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [7] so that, justified by his grace, we should become heirs in hope of eternal life.

I see baptism in Paul's discussion about union with Jesus Christ
Romans 6:1-14 What should we say then? Should we remain in sin so that grace may be given the more fully? [2] Out of the question! We have died to sin; how could we go on living in it? [3] You cannot have forgotten that all of us, when we were baptised into Christ Jesus, were baptised into his death. [4] So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father's glorious power, we too should begin living a new life. [5] If we have been joined to him by dying a death like his, so we shall be by a resurrection like his; [6] realising that our former self was crucified with him, so that the self which belonged to sin should be destroyed and we should be freed from the slavery of sin. [7] Someone who has died, of course, no longer has to answer for sin. [8] But we believe that, if we died with Christ, then we shall live with him too. [9] We know that Christ has been raised from the dead and will never die again. Death has no power over him any more. [10] For by dying, he is dead to sin once and for all, and now the life that he lives is life with God. [11] In the same way, you must see yourselves as being dead to sin but alive for God in Christ Jesus. [12] That is why you must not allow sin to reign over your mortal bodies and make you obey their desires; [13] or give any parts of your bodies over to sin to be used as instruments of evil. Instead, give yourselves to God, as people brought to life from the dead, and give every part of your bodies to God to be instruments of uprightness; [14] and then sin will no longer have any power over you -- you are living not under law, but under grace.

I also see baptism in Peter's discussion about salvation
1 Peter 3:18-22 Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, [19] and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. [20] They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah's time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. [21] It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now -- not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has entered heaven and is at God's right hand, with angels, ruling forces and powers subject to him.​

Some may say that the references in the first two passages are to something other than baptism.

Since this thread is about the meaning of baptism I quote the passages above as instances of the holy scriptures presenting perspectives on the meaning of baptism. The question of who may be baptised is not the same as asking what baptism means.

The proper candidates for baptism is a matter disputed by Anabaptists and Baptists and those denominations and non-denominational groups that claim baptism is to be administered only to those who make a credible profession of faith prior to being baptised. The rest of the Christian community regards baptism as rightly administered to believers and their children. If this matter were decided by vote then paedobaptism would be received as right and if the matter is judged by the practise of the ancient church then paedobaptism would be received as right if the matter is decided by what the holy scriptures say then we have a dispute because those sharing an Anabaptist perspective say one thing and those who share the perspective of the rest of the Christian community say a different thing. Deciding what is right by scripture's words alone hasn't worked for almost 500 years. It isn't going to work now either.

I'll take that as a no.
I ask a direct question about a specific theological statement and I get a wall of text on an unrelated subject.

"In baptism, God can give a baby the gift of faith" (some support was requested)
"because the word is present with the water." (some clarification and support was requested).

Were either of those addressed in your wall of text?
1. Faith comes through baptism
2. the Word is in the water.

My question was valid whatever the age of the recipient and had nothing to do with paedobaptism or not.
 
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